There are fanfics that changed so much from original books, from the cast being all OC to completely different magic system, that reader can have much problem with identification it as HP fic. So my question is how much change you can accept before stopping reading, because for you it's not HP fic anymore?

I have few situations when I think it's too much change. One is when author starts to bring too much magic from different settings - angels, demons, "true" elves, "true" magic without using a wand etc. Of course there are exceptions of this, like when from beginning it's suppose to be crossover, completely AU world or authors nick is Joe ( ), but when I see Harry doing something that looks like it's impossible to do in the canon, I know that it's not fic for me.

Other thing I really, really hate is when author change Harry's name. I can accept it when he is undercover, but the moment Harry starts referring to himself as Alex, Pierre or Kira, is the moment when I stop reading.

 

Changing his name for no purpose or changing it so ridiculously because of some manga dementia kills a story for me too. I share the same dislike about adding "true" Elf nonsense. I have no real problem with him developing some different magic but it needs to be developed and not just happen out of the blue and fit into the world.

Technomacy nonsense instantly kills a story for me, it might make sense from a rational point of view but it destroys the whole atmosphere of the magical world, the same with people who think they need to teach the magical world to be more modern, democratic or fair, usually done by some kind of teacher/mother/nanny writer personalities is a killer too. These people don't understand the paradigm of phantasy stories where archaic societies are a crucial part of the atmosphere, trying to fix that ruins the universe.

And now the worst crime, besides slash, bashing. It gets so tiresome to read convoluted characters sketched from bad mangas with black and white morality to make them look completely retarded. I really loath these stories, they suck all the fun out of reading any fictions.

 

Usually I can accept most changes, so long as they're integrated well and the writing is solid. But I haven't read too many "total conversion" fics that weren't crossovers, so I may lack perspective here.

 

I can read stories that change lots and still like them, and I can read stories that barely change anything and hate them. In general its the quality of writing and pacing that keeps me interested. However, I've got to say I really hate extreme bashing. Fics where Dumbledore is unquestionably evil, or Ron an incurable sadist, but try and act as if they're the logical extension of canon, that turns me right off. I think the problem there is too little change. If it were an AU story where everything was changed from the ground up and Dumbledore was a primary antagonist it'd be much easier to read.

Mainly, though, its not the amount that is changed, but more the quickness with which it is changed. The reader needs to go through the same learning curve as the protaganist, and if Harry or Rahkesh or whoever is constantly pulling a thousand and one tricks out of his hat from the get go I hit the back button.

 

In this case, I think the issue is a lot more complicated than just 'changing too much = automatically ruined'. I think it more comes down to the writing technique, the point of canon divergence, and characterization.

Let's take Wastelands of Time, for instance. To me, this fic is a prime example of a good divergence from canon. Early on, the magic is kept quite consistent with canon (despite Harry's monologuing), but as the story progresses, the magic gets more and more fantastic, as do the locales in the story (ie. the waterfall fight scene, the time spent in the States and Rome, Atlantis, etc.). If anything, it felt more like a golden-age Bond movie crossed with Harry Potter-esque high fantasy. Of course, to pull this off, Joe had to rewrite Harry's character, but where the transition worked was that Harry's character progression made sense with respect to his backstory, which was well-told in flashbacks and a few truly excellent scenes. But even still, there were portions of the story where I cocked my eyebrow in disbelief, namely because the more 'grounded' HP characters didn't react precisely as I would have expected to some of the utterly bizarre events in that story. But the changes in the magic didn't bother me as much because, frankly, most of the magic is in the fantastic 'Dumbledore level' of casting, and the rest is extradimensional, and thus not directly tied to the HPverse.

Compare this to the universally-accepted bad 'changing-things' story, A Second Chance At Life. In this story, we are introduced to facet after facet of a brand new world that the author created, and we are just told to accept that all of these elements exist in the HP universe - and that doesn't really fit. It feels jarring that all these other players exist in the HP world, and without realized backstories or recognizable creation/integration arcs, it's difficult to accept the changes. What's worse is that Harry's character manages to roll with all of the craziness, and when Harry was set up as a character for the reader to identify with, you're heading straight into trouble when there is a disconnect. I think the name-change really sealed it - by that point, the reader finds it difficult to even recognize who Harry is/was anymore.

Or let's bring up the R-Series by Regulus, seven massive Harry/Tonks stories that gets pretty damned insane in the later books. Sure, the magical outgrowth made a lot of sense and it ultimately worked, but where it went wrong here was characterization and a lot of author bitterness seeping into the writing (seriously, the author burnt his copy of DH when he read that Tonks died). He made Harry such a fantastically unlikeable character that series ultimately fell completely flat in the last story, even with all the crazy new magic. There was no emotional context with the story anymore - except that I badly wanted every character to DIE.

So ultimately it comes down to technique, and effective 'showing' techniques, and characterization plays a huge role. If the reader can't identify with any of the characters, how on earth is he/she supposed to enjoy the story unless it's a character study? Wastelands of Time worked because, despite the crazy plot and stunts, it did ultimately play out as a Steven King character study set in HP, and even still it didn't completely succeed in terms of character arcs (I guess we're saving that for Heartlands...).

I personally think the worst things that one can do in terms of 'changing things' is changing the character's name for no real reason (it severs the ties one has to the written character and begins destroying the immersion of the story). Technomancy... well, I've seen it pretty well, so if it's a good outgrowth and is written well, it can work - if anything, if written properly, it can serve as the Industrial Revolution the wizarding world hasn't experienced yet. As for bashing... well, shit, if the characterization is that terrible where there are bashing scenes, I won't be reading the fic much longer, because that becomes a technical issue of characterization rather than a story issue (see one of the many, MANY issues with Partially Kissed Hero).

So as a final case, let's consider the behemoth of a story and FictionAlley's crowning jewel, Harry Potter and the Fifth Element by Bexis. This fic is over a million words, is incredibly complex and detailed, and probably one of most interesting cases of 'changing everything' that I've seen in HP (it's also, I should mention, the only H/Hr fic I somewhat like). If you've read this story, you know exactly what I'm talking about - when the author feels it necessary to recap and explain a laundry list of extraneous plot elements at the end of each chapter for those readers who might have forgotten (...hmm, maybe I should start doing that...), you know the story has 'changed everything'. I can't even begin to list everything that is different/changed/new in this story from HP canon, and I'm quite certain Taure would throw a conniption and fall into a seizure if he managed to finish reading this.

But the thing is, aside from some glaring characterization issues (which thankfully the author is finally working his way through), Bexis has actually produced a pretty damn good fanfic. The details make sense in a convoluted, yet ultimately believable way, the plot works, and ultimately, it's a good fanfic. Is it perfect? Fuck no - characterization issues and the fact that I have no clue whether or not Bexis will finish the fic this decade stand in this story's way, and it doesn't help the damn thing is so long and should have been split into six or seven smaller stories. But here is a story that changed everything - almost literally - and ultimately worked.

So can it work? Yeah, it can. Does it work without a plan, a good backstory and understanding of canon and its characters, and a very good author at the helm? No way in hell.

 

I managed to read them up to the fourth book I think, but even then a I didn't understand half of it so I quit. He had a somewhat original idea and fucked it up.

Aside that Silens, this is massive and you'r right...

 

I can agree with most points Silens Cursor made, but in the end one could argue that a good author can pull off almost any change and it will be a good read. Still, when I start to read a HP fanfic, I expect it to be a HP fanfic, not author original idea for magical world (for that I've normal books). Because of that there is a point when I will lose my interest in it, if author change to much from the books in therms of the world or characters (not events, obviously). It takes a brilliant author to make me want to read the rest of the story if that happens.

Now that's interesting idea - how would magical equivalent of the Industrial Revolution look and work in HP world?

 

Silens came in and said what I wanted to say, but I also wanted to mention a good example of why any change can be accepted; the Alexandra Quick series. It changes everything except the magic system, and explores different parts of that, too. Far better story than many that stay close to canon, and even quite a few that don't.

An industrial revolution in the wizarding world would probably have some fundamental differences; for one, quite a few things made possible by robotics right now are even easier done with magic. I guess that it would start with a few schools/facilities that are based solely on teaching people to conjure/transfigure things with longevity and detail, and would continue either within the same building (because enlarging a warehouse probably wouldn't be hard by then) or in a more specialty place, closer to consumers. But it just doesn't make as much sense without the consumers. The wizarding world is small enough to not need to worry about making enough of anything for everyone, and if they did, it would be a sign of an excellent business (WWW), not a lack of product.

 

Fanfiction changes three things: Events, Characters, and World. If all three are changed beyond recognizability, it's no longer fanfiction.

For example, A Second Chance at Life. It changes world, moving to America and keeping very little of the original HP world. It introduces a cast of OC's, and renamed Harry. And the Events are completely different - she doesn't shoehorn the sorceror's stone or anything.

 

I think a big part of it is advertisement, too.

I don't think there's anything wrong with changing stuff per se (I would be a hypocrite if I did, lol). I think frustration comes when you meet unexpected changes. When you start a fic you go into it with certain preconceptions based on the summary, etc. If those preconceptions are broken in an unpleasant way you'll be annoyed. The same content on a different day, had it been advertised properly, may not have annoyed you, because you would have had a more appropriate set of preconceptions.

So, if a story is advertised as a "next book" in the series (e.g. most indy!Harry fics are alternative 6th books) then you expect it to be continuous with canon. You don't expect Harry to get off the train at the end of OotP and be talking about demons.

If a fic is advertised as AU then you have less expectation for it to comply with canon, so if it deviates you're not as annoyed. An example for this would be enembee's "By The Divining Light". It's advertised as AU and we're presented, from the start, with the impression that we're dealing with a different magic system. As such, we buy the changes as part of the fic's premise.

I take it that whether an author writes well is a different issue. My problem with ASCAL isn't the fact that it massively changes things, it's that it massively changes things and that those changes suck.

 

Another aspect: say you've been inspired by HP to try your hand at a story set in a very similar setting.
How many readers are you going to attract by putting this as an original story on your own webpage, versus presenting it as an AU story in the Harry Potter section of fanfiction.net?
Also, you'll probably be accused of ripping off the HP setting if you write it as an original story, because this kind of magical society made up of magic users who use magic for _everything_ is kind of unique.

 

Interesting you brought this up, because the Alexandra Quick series is an excellent example of one of those fics that change everything - and for me, one of those that doesn't really work because of characterization. Sure, the setting and historical background is done very well, but for the life of me I could never identify with Alex. She was whiny, incessantly arrogant, and in some cases profoundly stupid. I struggled through all three stories because I wanted to see character evolution (and we did get some, though not nearly enough) and I liked the background, but in the end, it belongs in the Recycling Bin for a reason.

Agree with Taure completely here, and add this is why summaries for fics are incredibly important, because they offer a tiny glimpse into the fic and give a short look at what could be coming. And in fics that are massively AU, I tend to find that little historical blurbs (like what The Skitterleap used) do wonders for explaining and creating a rich, varied backstory so that the reader can be hooked in.

As for a wizarding Industrial Revolution, I think a lot of the writers and 'technomancy' fetishists that try and write these stories are too enamored with technology and science in the real world, and thus try to follow a similar path. My immediate question is why - from what we've seen, wizarding culture is a lot different than Muggle culture, and doesn't that make it logical that a wizarding Industrial Revolution would follow a different path.

And here's the thing about those stories - they're always set as being led by Muggle-borns looking to integrate the magical world with the Muggle, to staunch pureblood opposition. Frankly, to anyone who knows anything about the Industrial Revolution, the greatest scientists and inventors of that time always had the backing of the rich and powerful, and often the royalty.

So I pose the question: wouldn't it make for an interesting story if, say, Lucius Malfoy in an enterprising maneuver, begins hiring and sponsoring magical research into new 'technologies', hoping to reap the rewards in the future. Does Harry stop him and potentially retard the advancement of magical society, or let him continue, potentially letting the next big new innovations fall into Voldemort's hands?

 

Honestly, as long as there's no technomancy(which sucks every remotely magical thing out of Harry Potter, IMO), I'm good with most changes. The quality of the writing is the main determining factor for me.

 

Pretty much any single idea out there can be made into a decent story, if the right author is the one writing it. I mean, you wouldn't expect a Roman legions/Pokemon crossover to be any good, but then you have Codex Alera.

 

I fully second Silens' statement.

There are only few things which I would never read per se as I consider them not to be Harry Potter anymore. That's the case when an author rewrites a totally different series or even an original story and names his characters after Harry Potter characters just to be able to place it in the most frequented section of ff.net.

Almost always these kind of stories take place in a non-magical world, and the only connection to JKR's story is that the main character grows up as an orphan, abused by his aunt and uncle, and he is coincidentally named Harry Potter. Of course the other characters bear names of his best friends, other students and teachers, but apart from the name they don't have anything to do with JKR's cast.

But then almost always these kind of stories are written by (slash-)fangirls with all the usual fangirlish elements, which are in itself already a reason not to read a story.

 

Agreed, especially with the last comment.

 

I was with you until here. I see Bexis's as the textbook example of a story ruined* by technomancy and all its half-baked attempts to rationalize magic with the author's half-understanding of a few choice bits of popular science. Charmonium-fueled magical uberexplosions that don't give off radiation? Superfluid helium as the key to blocking the Killing Curse? Whatever. What's wrong with it just letting magic be magic? Hint to the would-be technomagic writer: You can't keep Harry Potter magic, which throws out all notions of conservation of mass, and yet make a big deal about energy-mass equivalence. It ain't logically consistent, so don't even try.

Bad technomagic is the equivalent of a non-ironic McGonagall saying "y'all" and delivering her lectures in a Southern U.S. twang. For the initiated who carry around a pretty solid idea of what's what in their heads, it doesn't just break the metaphor, it grinds it to dust with a belt sander. I loathe this stuff in fanfiction for the same reason why I can't read anything but the hardest science fiction.

*Well, that and, as you said, characterization issues: 100k+ words devoted to repetitive conversations between Harry and [insert character] where he angsts about how everyone he loves dies and they say for the thousadnth time "it's not your fault." It almost makes Bobmin's Harry seem manly in comparison. Almost.

 

I only read to about the twentieth chapter of Fifth Element (quit reading because, besides the constant wangst, he crossed the line between making Harry somewhat ignorant on things he missed out on with the Dursleys and making him a complete retard -- one scene in particular that I remember was his mistaking pool cues for very large wands), but I do remember liking the explanation he gave for the Killing Curse. Something about causing cell death, as I recall. Which, in my opinion, is a lot better than the "oh it just works turn your brain off" excuse.

See, this is why I much prefer The Dresden Files' magic system over Harry Potter's magic. You can just tell that a lot more effort went into it to make it feel more real. There's at least a plausible rationalization for most of it that I can accept, and it doesn't completely break the laws of physics. Dresden can't conjure a dog out of thin air or physically make a room larger on the inside than it appears on the outside. It's not perfectly scientific or anything, but it's consistent enough that it suspends my disbelief. Unlike Harry Potter, where the only reason I can even accept canon Harry Potter magic and enjoy it at all is because I've read the books since I was nine and it's just grown on me. Honestly, if I just picked up Harry Potter today after reading Dresden and all the other books I've read, I probably wouldn't enjoy it nearly as much.

</stupid rant>

 

I fully agree Taure here, but would like to expand upon its corollary: sometimes not-enough-change is equally off-putting. The author writes an interesting AU, setting up all kinds of differences, and yet, somehow, Harry ends up in the Golden-Trio with Ron and Hermione, he still ends up staying at the Weasleys, he still ends up in Gryffindor, he still . . . at what point does the author just give up and start plagiarizing the books for all the good their AU-setup did.