I can't understand how anyone likes this book, so I'm looking for some insight.

Reasons? Well I'll start out with Murphy, she's flopping around like a dead fish! She just got done wielding the Sword of God, talking with "God's own words", and all of a sudden she becomes a little bitch. She's been fighting pawns for 7 months, then all of a sudden when some little kid with a gun is in front of her she FLIPS to become nice! What? Doesn't make any since. (I've thought it through, if you have arguments i'll explain more.)

Second....Mab is a pussy all of a sudden. She's supposedly crazy...whatever - but she's a manipulator. Which is why the final scene is complete Bullshit! She's arguing as if she's a 10 year old. What happened to how Jim Butcher wrote Malone? I mean we have this demi-god per say, and she fights with Dresden as if she has no idea what she's doing!

So much more...Dresden's a pussy - I'll look past that though because he's developing. Bob had too minor a role.

The second half of the book was just straight up annoying - the only parts of the book I enjoyed had to do with Molly or Butters. If I could have just had the bob and Molly parts, I would have loved it, but all other characters sucked.:fire

 

Murphy's best friend just died, she lost her job, and she was forced to protect the entirety of Chicago. Unsurprisingly, fighting magic without a wizard is hard. She was forced to step into the shoes of a guy who crushed cars, shot fire, and had allies amongst the Supernatural. She couldn't fit them and she wasn't supposed to.

In addition, in the wake of the Red Court, a bunch of supernatural creatures showed up to attempt to fill the sudden vacuum and they no longer had to worry about a Warden of the White Council. Unlike Harry, who normally has a lot of fairly boring days with, like, two weeks of hell every year, Murphy had to fight a supernatural gang war for seven months.

Also, the ghost of her dead best friend just showed up, so yeah.

As for Mab, she's exhausted. She had to keep Harry alive for seven months while he was missing a soul. But actually, her arguments were pretty good, thanks to the set up. Harry lost everything in Changes. Then he betrayed himself. Then he killed Susan. Then he died. Then he came back and Mab's statue (Jim stated that she controlled that statue) mindfucked Harry. When it came to the part at the end, Harry almost gave up. Then an Archangel interfered with the right words at the right time, thankfully. She didn't quite get what she wanted, but it wasn't a bad deal in the end--and if you'll remember, if she wants a different Winter Knight, she can kill Harry and get a new one. She's chosen not to use the 'I own you completely' mind control bit, but that doesn't mean she can't.

Besides, Harry's now part of her Court, so the rule about 'I can't kill you directly' just went out the window.

The deal is now 'Obey or Die.' It used to be 'Obey,' and she put a lot into it, but it was ruined at the last minute, so Harry managed to add the 'or Die' part.

And Harry was a pussy? I didn't see that. I thought the Ghost Harry scenes were some of the coolest and most badass scenes so far.

 

About to go to bed...but your first paragraph makes no since... because she's SEEN Michael fight with a sword...so NO - its not hard to fight without a wizard like Dresden. She did as much as Dresden in the fight in Changes as he did! (If not more)...she SHOULD NOT have been cold hearted because of what was happening in Chicago because she had dealt with it all before, and now she was as supernatural as Dresden (or should have been.)

---------- Post automerged at 12:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 AM ----------

Your thinking like Butcher tried to make you think in this book. But in the last 5 books she was a BA when it came to supernatural, she is NOT a pussy, she went into fights.

When your about to lose your own life, you realize your friends might die, and you already have that in your mind. She knew Dresden might die...a one night stand DOE NOT change that. She loved and cared for Dresden, but she knew he could die. So just because he died SHOULD NOT make her change. (Molly yes, Murphy no)

 

I shall give these posts the level of intellectual analysis they obviously merit.

 

This is depressing. OP is an idiot, and this thread is just going to continue in that vein. Ghost Story was fascinating and vastly different than what we'd seen before. I can't wait for the next book.

 

1) That sword you're talking about is one of three extremely potent magical objects. Saying that it's easy to fight without a Wizard when you've got the Fist of God on side is a slight exaggeration.

2) The Sword represents Murphy giving up her own power in the face of evil. It represents the 'easy option', which was laid out quite specifically in Aftermath. If Murphy takes up the Sword it would basically amount to her admitting that she's not enough by herself to tackle the monsters that threaten Chicago. Murphy has her pride, so it's going to take something big to make her take up the Sword.

3) Following on from that, the Sword and her grief over Harry's death are inextricably linked, so that while she was still in denial she couldn't really think of taking up the Sword. It would mean that she'd have to admit Harry was dead to do so, which she wasn't willing to do.

Maybe now that she has some closure there'll be some progress on that front, but I'm hesitant to think that she was even capable of wielding the Sword in the state she was before Ghost Story. She'd be an accident waiting to happen, and putting the Sword of Faith at risk would be a monumental disaster.

She's mourning her best friend, you idiot. Grief does a lot of fucked up things to people, and in this case it made her want to live up to 'Harry's image', warped as that may have been in her mind. Murphy in Ghost Story is a very broken person and it shows in everything she does and says.

Yes, yes it would. She lost her best friend and a man she loved beyond all others. If you think she could go through that without a lot of mental problems, especially when followed by the Fomor incursions into Chicago that she couldn't face by herself, you're a fool and have obviously never lost someone close to you.

Grief fucks you up and Murphy was never able to get over Harry's death. Hell, she wouldn't even admit he'd died, for fuck's sake.

 

I agree with you on that. Both Ghost Story and Changes messed with the template we were used to in the previous books, and it was pretty jarring for us to go through that, which was the point. Everything is different now so it makes sense that we're going to read the new books and not recognise them compared to the earlier ones.

 

I do kind of agree with you CT. I think the biggest issue in it for me at least was just how different it was. Since the beginning, The Dresden Files have been nothing but consistent. Every book built on from the previous one, everything new had time taken to explore it.

Ghost Story however was in a completely different setting. While Changes obviously had a lot of... changes in it, it was still built on the previous setting. Ghost Story, from start to finish was just a complete unknown.

I expect that this will however come to be one of those things that was just necessary to move the plot on, especially as we gain new information and perspective about what happens.

At the very least, while this may of been a weaker book, it seems as though we will be returning to at least a vaguely familiar format with the next book. I definitely have high hopes for it, even though I was never the biggest fan of Dresden becoming the Winter Knight.

 

I really liked Ghost Story in theory and had a good time getting through it.

Buuuuuut - what Cheddar said. Mostly.

I didn't have as much a problem with Murphy or Molly as he did (probably because I love the two to death) but I definitely felt annoyed by the whole street rat angle and that shit with Daniel. Holy fuck I dislike that guy.

I also feel like it's worth mentioning that the only reason Mab is being even somewhat accommodating towards Harry is because of two things. One, she's drained as fuck from keeping his corpse from falling to pieces while his spirit was wandering about. Two she wants Harry because he's Harry not some mindless rape-mongerer like Slate. If she forces him to do anything he doesn't want to then it'll end up compromising his identity and will eventually. Which apparently isn't what Mab wants.

I feel like a lot of choices in this book make sense...they're just annoying. It's definitely a transitory book (after changes what the hell wouldn't be) so I'm not going to be too harsh on it (even if some of it's deserving).

I also think that op needs to figure out that since =/= sense but w/e.

 

I would have to agree, Ghost Story was a very different cup of tea from the normal Dresden books. I think the book's biggest issue is that (as even Butcher has admitted) it's the worst book in the entire series when it comes to being a standalone story. Between that, the slower pace/more contemplative tone, and all the changes of Ghost-Dresden, I can see why some folks weren't thrilled by it.

Of course, a lot of those differences are especially noticeable since the natural instinct for the reader is to compare Ghost Story to Changes, and Changes was by far the most action-heavy book in the series.

Like other folks said, Ghost Story is really more a bridging story than a stand-alone. I think that when looking at it in the context entire series rather than as a book in its own right, it's a lot stronger.

 

Ghost Story had it's good points and bad points. Some of the characters annoyed the shit out of me (namely that teenager and Daniel). Like Cheddar, it's the only Dresden book I haven't reread, and I probably won't until Cold Days is about to come out.

I loved some things about the book, though. Molly and Murphy were both handled spectacularly well, Uriel was interesting, and some of the lines were just :awesome. It wasn't a bad book, but like others said, it was completely different from the norm. I see it as the second half of the transition Changes started, and we'll see how it goes from here. I'm actually kinda concerned about that, just because no one thinks Harry is coming back now, and Murphy finally accepted his death. Everyone is moving on now, so it's entirely possible that Butcher will write up a new cast and toss the others into the background, if they show up at all.

All that said;

 

Oddly, I was thinking along these lines a couple days ago.

By and large, I agree with CT; something about the book just felt... off.

I enjoyed it, but it was mostly the 'set piece' moments (Saving Private Harry, He Who Walks, Bluffing the Kinetomancer, Be) that I remember and enjoyed. Part of the problem, I think, is that Harry himself was so dsiconnected from everything that was going on, and that translated to the reader. Much as with Changes, when Harry was disoriented and unsure what to think, the reader was left the same way. If looked at as an excersise in empathy-writing, you could call it a success.

As a story itself, though...

All right, who saw Casino Royale?

Now, who saw Quantum of Solace?

Well, Changes is Casino Royale, Ghost Story is Quantum: A really cool, very well-done piece, full of action and a re-working of the main character, breaking him down and re-building him, with mass appeal and crazy fun, followed by a slower, less consistent story that plays out as nothing more than an extended coda to the previous installment.

More than any other book, GS is a direct sequel to the book before it. In a way, I think Changes and GS have to almost be looked at as one story, starting off heavy on action and then shifting gears dramatically to introspection.

So, no, GS didn't suck, per se, but it doesn't really stand on its own, either.

 

I read Ghost Story a few weeks ago, and like most Dresden books, picked it up vowing to read half of it, get enough sleep for work, then finish it. That plan went out the fucking window pretty damn fast. (Don't why I even try.)

Never reread any of them, though. The story is awesome, but the writing can be lacking at times. Somethings get forced etc.

As to the book itself. Man, it was definitely different than the norm. Much more character-driven and all that. And that is the single best aspect of the book by far. We actually see a lot of growth and characterization from Dresden. Realizing that what his actions can lead to. How he can see how rushing in and not planning ahead can lead to consequences.

Characterization has never been Butcher's strongest suit, Harry aside, who I think is done pretty decently. Every scene we had with Harry interacting with the side-characters was deep and awesome.

What I think bogged the story down was the side-shit, for me at least. The teenage gang and that warlock ruling them. It kind of stole the show for portions of the book, and I really did not like them. It show-cased how people not-Harry could fight, but that whole moral bag was not done very well. Which I think is a fault of the author's ability than anything else.

The other thing I did not like was the return of a dead villain, it was done pretty awesome, though. The reveal was great, too, about his death. And I can see how that would weigh heavily on Molly. As to Murphy...always had a weird vibe from her throughout the series. I can see what he is trying to get across with her, but the execution at most times has been hit-or-miss. It was pretty close in this book for me, but it felt at times lacking. Can't remember the specifics, but a few scenes felt off.

Also, hated how Mab reacted to his declaration. Just seemed so ooc for someone of her station and experience. So Disney villain like.

So, the rest of the stuff aside, I think the side-plot that kind of highjacked the book is why a lot of people got an off feeling to it. Add to that Butcher is in new territory for himself in this, and I can see why many did not like it as much as the rest of the series. I actually hope he continues this breaking the formula stuff. Once he finds his stride in it, I think we're in for an awesome ride. That and the formula was becoming a little stale of late.

 

I would definitely go out and say that Changes and Ghost Story are the two stories in the series that need to be tied together. I mean Christ, what book had a bigger cliff hanger than Changes? There is an obvious pace change in the second story because of the drastic change in character. Not to mention the lack of high powered explosives- though we got to see a shift in magic use with Molly. She'll be a bamf in the next book.

In other words, Ghost Story took a hard left in the Dresden File norms- but a realistic turn in most instances, the OP is just a little on the thick side. I'd suggest reading a bit less on the surface and try feeling some emotion for yourself when you read. Makes the whole experience a lot more enjoyable.

 

Here's an interesting tidbit for you. Fitz is the son of Harley MacFinn and Tera West, and is likely to become the next generation of Loup Garou once he hits the required age/whatever.

 

Really? That's potentially cool...source on that?

On topic:
Ghost Story wasn't the best in the series (as many have said, I haven't reread it yet, although that's more to do with reading other books than anything else), but I thought there was a lot to like about it. Jim really shook things up across Changes and GS, which was refreshing, and I'm looking forward to seeing where it all goes.

 

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,27953.0.html

There's the thread that Serack (the guy who catalogues all the Words of Jim on the JB forums) lays it all out in, with evidence backing it up. Interesting stuff.

 

I've been meaning to write up an honest critique of GS, having finished it a couple weeks back but still trying to digest it and it's implications. The two things I *can* tell you right now are (1) there's a lot I don't like about it and (2) the OP is as irritating as anything in the book.

Now while the many people saying a person might not like the book because it's much different than all the previous ones, and blah blah, blah, are correct to some extent, that's not at all the reason I'm not as jazzed about it as I'd hoped I would be when I first cracked it open. Though to be honest, there are parts I liked far, far better than I suspected I would.

That is all down to Butcher's incredible imagination. Take for instance Sir Stuart and his use of powerful memories as the ammunition against the wraiths/ghouls. The imagery was vivid and I was blown away with the descriptions as much as the clever plotline.

Although I'm unhappy that Mort has apparently been sandbagging everyone with his uber skills, and has only recently seen fit to do anything other than help himself, I should have known something like that could happen, as Elaine did almost the exact same thing when she met Ramirez out West. The main problem with Mortimer-as-champion-of-psycho-ghosts, though, is that *why* *why* *why* has Dresden never come across even an inkling of these hordes of very dangerous ghosts apparently right under his nose? I mean, a big chunk of the plot in Grave Peril was the number of loony and blood-thirsty ghosts wreaking havoc because of Kravos, so it stands to reason Dresden would've caught wind of all this before being a ghost himself.

Let me go ahead and say that I second, third, w/e the notion that, while there are indeed a ton of more-awesome-than-awesome lines in GS, Butcher went off the rails (over the top, jumped the shark - pick a hyperbolic phrase) with his geek-ffo in this book. The Molly's-brain-is-the-Enterprise (while conjuring sexy images of hardbody!Molly in the old Trek skirts, yes) was just too much. And no one's even mentioned the Darth Vader reference, which if I'm honest, is just as stupidly over the top and off-putting as the Trek shit. And Uriel? That's a gripe for another paragraph...

So about Uriel. Taure put it best in another thread, in that we are now seeming to verge on some pro-Christian shit that I cannot support. I don't support that crap IRL - I'm not going to bother reading novels that hold it up or put it on a pedestal. I would much, much, MUCH rather have a set of novels that treat the White God as just one of any number of gods, which happens to be on top at the current time because of the number of followers, etc. And if the Catholic system is best (Forthill and the Carpenters are all Catholic, the Swords are a big hint that Jesus is God, etc.), where does that leave Judaism and Islam, just to name a few?

Now, it's been said that Uriel is on the level of Mab and the other Queens/Mothers, IIRC. In that case, how can Dresden even think Uriel has the power to destroy all the planets, etc., when it's also been said that Mab would be able to take on all the White Council but that it wouldn't be her simply curb-stomping them. I'm paraphrasing and may have the numbers all wrong, but nevertheless, if Uriel has even a fraction of the power hinted at, Mab would be toast.

Now, when it's implied that Uriel is doing this to fuck with Mab, then either (a) Uriel does have free will or (b) he was fucking with Mab on the orders of the White God. I also think it's a bullshit deus ex plot device to have Uriel intervening because of the other side "cheating" when said cheating amounts to nothing more than a lie at the right moment. And while I believe that was either Lash or Lasciel, it doesn't matter when every demon we've heard of is perfectly capable of lying its ass off. While that in itself doesn't take away the oh-so-precious "free will," Molly's mind-rape of her friends back in Proven Guilty certainly does, not to mention Justin's successful mind-rape of Elaine and his subsequent attempt to do the same to Dresden.

And for anyone to say that this whole struggle between Good and Evil must be waged through the human race is just utter drivel, in the same vein as the best pro-Puritan rhetoric from a few hundred years ago. For anyone to suggest that the fate of the universe depends on the choices of a few insignificant specks on an insignificant speck of a planet, orbiting an unremarkable sun in a forgotten corner of a forgettable galaxy, when those specks have only been around about a hundred thousand years compared to the billions of years since the Big Bang? That's not only stupidly naive, it's the absolute height of narcissism.

Now, on to the actual GS book and its plot. I've read it once, so forgive/correct me if I get something wrong.

As I said, I liked Sir Stuart, and I hope we see him again. I have to think that we'll see Mortimer again, and in a bigger capacity. I hate to say it, but I wanted Daniel Carpenter to fucking die. He's not Michael, and I have a hard time believing he'd be anywhere near as strong or bad-ass as his father, a grown fucking man.

I really, really liked Butters, and as much as it would limit Dresden to lose Bob, I think it's pretty great that Butters has him now. The Bob-has-internet thing was another stupid idea, though, and I hope I'm wrong in thinking that this might be Butcher's way of getting around Dresden's inability to use computers.

I'm getting sick and tired of Murphy, though that has as much to do with recently re-reading Fool Moon as her portrayal in GS. I swear, Fool Moon is one of my favorite TDF books, with the definite caveat of wanting Dresden to kick her in the cunt for being such a, well, a cunt. /end Murphy rant

I really enjoyed Molly in this installment, and I need to go back and read Changes again, because I have obviously forgotten how messed up that made her. I can definitely see the possibility of Harry/Molly in future, what with her increasing maturity and the toning down of the fangirlisms towards Dresden, and this exact kind of thing is hinted at with the Morgan/Luccio unrequited love we found out about back in Turn Coat. That said, I worry about the influence of Lea on Molly, and the propensity Molly has for "darkness," for lack of a better word. Yes, we see that same affinity or temptation or w/e in Dresden, but with Molly it seems so much more of a slippery slope, especially with all the killing she does off-screen before GS starts. I hope I'm wrong, and that Molly can make it through.

Lea was awesome, and as someone pointed out in a GS thread, this is the most likable she's been, and for me, it's the most nuanced we've seen her. I definitely think there's a whole lot more to be learned about Lea, especially with regards to Harry's mother, father, and other family. I would not be surprised if Harry's dad had some changeling in him and was related to Lea, somehow.

Did anyone else get a distinct "Borg" vibe from the Fomor? There's the physiological changes and the "go ahead and kill me, as long as it helps out the collective" philosophy as well. I get that they're a formidable adversary, but why then has Dresden never heard of them before? They seem to be a contrived villain, and Butcher will have to add significant depth to them for me to see them as anything but cardboard cutouts.

I thought the part with Thomas, Justine, and Alicia Keys (that's who I'm picturing, so shut up) was pretty fucking hot, sparse as it was. Dresden shoulda stuck around. And yes, I'm jumping around the book - so what?

Now, as for Demonreach and Mab. I can't say exactly what pisses me off about that. Yes, Mab seems terribly OOC and juvenile for a thousands-of-years-old entity, but even besides that, she seems far different from the injured, unable to speak Mab we saw back in Small Favor (??). I have a feeling that whatever happened to her and/or Arctis Tor in Proven Guilty, has something to do with the Fomor and possibly with *why* she wants Dresden so badly as the Winter Knight. And Demonreach is apparently waayyy more badass than we ever suspected, and I look for that to be a big plot point later. But how did DR project a proxy into the graveyard, and why did Mab have two in Lea and Inez?

Oh, and another thing: No one else has mentioned (that I know of) Lea's almost feral hatred of Bainca. Lea mentions the knife for which she traded Amorrachius, and what a "deceitful" gift it was, IIRC. Does anyone else think that has/had something to do with Mab's injury? Lea was certainly keen to have obliterated Bianca if Dresden hadn't done it first, and the Sidhe aren't usually ones to show their displeasure except to the person at whom it's directed, right?

As for the whole setup of the book, well... it seemed contrived and, unlike every other Dresden book, didn't gel at the end. There has always been a closure to the books in which Dresden (and the reader) see how things fit together and why things happened. I'm not talking about a Dumbledore-esque talk in the Hospital Wing, where an info dump explains it all, but rather a reckoning of all the myriad aspects of the story and a fitting together of all the clues and hints. Even in the other books it isn't always neat or without contrivances, but in GS it seemed completely arbitrary and a case of author hand-waving in favor of getting all that self-examining catharsis in there.

For example, did we ever get an answer as to why seven months had passed? Why Mab thought she could bring Dresden's soul back? There seemed little closure, and it seems we have consecutive cliffhangers with Dresden off the the Winter Court.

Question: So we know Summer and Winter trade at the Solstice, but why would Mab be weakened normally? I know she's weak here because she's hanging around in Summer's time, but in a normal year, Summer in the northern hemisphere is simply Winter in the southern, so they ought to be just as strong, just half a world away. It would seem to be less of turning over your house and more of a house exchange program. Has Butcher ever addressed this?

I have more to complain and ask questions about, but that's more than enough for one post. I'm not remotely an expert on Dresden canon, as I've only read most of the books once. Still, some of this seems off to me. The short answer on my verdict for GS is "Parts were great, the imagery and imagination was awesome, but the coherence wasn't there when lookin g at the whole book. I look forward to the next one and hopefully more answers."

Anyone want to bet on how much time will pass before Dresden is back from the Nevernever? If Mab wanted to really fuck with him, she'd make it several years so that everyone is either dead or has moved on entirely. That would suck, but she's definitely bitchy enough to try it if she can keep from having to have her Knight do some dirty work.