This is inspired by the discussion in the Naruto or Naruto Shippuden thread.

Some of us have stated that the later parts of the manga/anime have introduced abilities that are too powerful and over the top.

The hax powers of the Sharingan come to mind.

So let's imagine how would the series look if it retained the "tone" in terms of power from Naruto and never went as crazy as in Shippuden.

Now, some improvements and growth are of course necessary, but never to the extreme.

For example, Sharingan can still have the Amaterasu, but would Susanoo be too much? Izanagi and Izanami could definitely be out (I think so, not sure).

 

In such a universe, Amaterasu would be the ultimate-tier sharingan ability, and Itachi would functionally be the god he was hyped up to be before he actually showed up.

But really, we don't have to imagine a universe like that. Just go watch the original series again, and it's basically that. Just ignore shippuuden content and the power creep inherent to shounen series', which essentially means ignoring every jutsu not mentioned in the original series, and drastically scaling back everyone's physical capabilities, and you'd have it. The story would be functionally identical, just the fights would be less flashy and more about misdirection and planning.

 

I like the idea that most ninja are relatively low powered, with only a small handful who can be classed as crazy powerful. The type of power that would need to be seen to be believed. Most ninjas would be very similar to soldiers/mercenaries that have esper like abilities, that while they live in a world where everyone has superpowers things like bijuu are seen as myths.

In a Low-Powered Naruto Universe I think there would be a bigger focus on tactics and improving one self to be constantly improving one self through hard work or trying to find the ultimate finisher technique (rasengan, chidori).

In this universe I think that jinjuriki would have a more difficult time using the bijuu's chakra and with increased risk of using said chakra.

Concerning the Sharingan, I always liked that idea that Itachi created the different mangekyou techniques we see him use.

 

A low-powered Naruto universe is certainly interesting, but it raises a lot of questions. What abilities would be cut? What abilities would be kept?

There were many examples of Dues Ex Machina. These would have to be cut out. Hax abilities would need to be removed as well.

Honestly, scaling down the power isn't as simple as it seems. The storyline is tied irrevocably to a lot of the ridiculous abilities and removing them would necessitate some changes to the storyline as well.

Take the Rinnegan for example. That was definitely a hax dojutsu. But is removing it arbitrarily really the answer? Or is a compromise better?

A compromise is hence necessitated. Rather than wantonly removing all the hax abilities and Deus ex Machina, introduce them in such a way that it's apparent only a special class of ninja can obtain these abilities, at tremendous costs. Make it so that while godlike levels of power exist in Naruto, only mythical, nightmarish ninja can attain them.

That's damn right: make S-rank the godlike beings they were touted to be in Part I. Ninja can suppress biju? S-rank. Ninja can fly? S-rank. Ninja can rearrange the landscape? S-rank. Ninja can burn fire? S-rank motherfucker.

Itachi epitomizes what S-rank ninja should be: the boogeymen of the ninja world. Sparing few can attain S-rank status. Those that do are immortalized as monstrosities you never want your worst enemy to meet.

So, yeah. It could work. Though you'd need to take the Part I characters to realistic conclusions. Biju would need to actually be legendary, Cthulhu-esque monsters (not the nerfed caricatures they were in Shippuden). S-rank ninja need to be boogeymen (not wimps defeated by second-rate chumps).

And now I'd really love to see this work.

 

Not quite sure where to draw the line, honestly. I mean, we still have the bijuu and jinchuruki and the S-ranks who need to be as dangerous as their status demands but on the other, the Konoha invasion by Pain was already a bit too much to me, that basically one guy could invade Konoha on his own.

Essentially, I think numbers should matter. That while S-rank ninja are strong, that something like an elite ANBU squad should still be somewhat of a threat to them. That S-rank ninja can be powerful and dangerous but not exactly invincible to the point that they can casually assault a bunch of jonin. That they basically have a technique or a gimmick that makes them very dangerous but which doesn't translate into an automatic win against anyone not also an S-rank.

It's a difficult balance to achieve, since one doesn't want to dilute the S-rank but I also hated the extremes canon went to.

 

Option 1: Cut everything after the Pain arc. The author actually wanted to wrap up the manga after this fight, but his producers weren't ready for their cash-cow to end just yet, so we got the Shinobi War arc. This makes a decent point to cut off: The major villains--Orochimaru, Itachi, and Pain--have all been killed off, Akatsuki defeated, Naruto has surpassed Jiraiya, Hinata confessed, Naruto met his dad, Naruto has completed his dream of being acknowledged by the village...All that was left was retrieving Sasuke. Naruto was at Kage power level, the Kyuubi wasn't a misunderstood Kurama but the monster he's always been, and there wasn't any of the super super powers.

Option 2: Cut off everything post timeskip. Here we would go back to the early themes. Super ninja powers can only be acquired by two ways: 1) A combination of talent, hard work, and time; 2) a shortcut to power that has drastic costs to it: Eight Gates destroy your body and kill you, Hero Water gives a tenfold boost in chakra for an equal cost in lifespan, super-Meteorite chakra gives boosts that poison your body, advanced regeneration cuts into your lifespan, the Cursed Seal and Jinchuuriki powers destroy your sanity, Mangekyou destroys your eyesight...

Itachi and his Mangekyou (Tsukiyomi and Ameratasu only) reaches the same level we see as the other Kage: the Shodai can create entire forests and control Bijuu, the Nidaime can use massive Suiton techniques out of thin air and has a unique lightning sword to use with it, the Sandaime can use every technique in the village and has a top-level summon he uses as an indestructible extending staff, the Yondaime can teleport at such speed that he can single-handedly wipe out an army, Orochimaru can use many forbidden techniques and has powerful artifacts like the Kusanagi sword...

Rather than the common method depicted in fanfics, there is no common jutsu library with a collection of techniques. Instead we embrace one of the other themes, diversity. Barring teacher-student pairs and ninja clans we never see the same technique twice. Even the outfits are incredibly unique and distinctive. When two ninja fight, it's all about figuring out what the other guy can do and countering it while using your ace-in-the-hole secret technique to take them down. They are ninja and information is key. Without satellite surveillance, telephones, and internet information is passed by word of mouth and clan techniques are likely kept as secrets. Even those who share an 'element' have unique techniques. For example the Sound trio each use (presumably) modified Fuuton techniques to manipulate air into sound pressure waves, but with different applications: massive pressure waves for destruction, targeted pressure waves for equilibrium destruction, and using sound as a medium for genjutsu delivery. Ninja fights are about intelligence and counterintelligence, skill vs skill not power vs power.

 

To me S-Rank a lone means you're able to deal with elite mercenaries comfortably via your own village or enemy village.

They are considered nukes, I forgot which fic has a good descripion of S-Ranks.

But yeah, a lot of things in he manga (never watched the anime) did get overblown. There's nothing wrong with a select few powerful people, but I for one was kind of annoyed how much Shodai/Madara overshadowed everyone. Even Pein.

 

Basically this. The power creep that was inherent to the manga was evident in Shippuden, but didn't really become a problem until after Pein was dead. Everything was very well organized.

Naruto had fully surpassed everyone with still more room to grow, as had Sasuke; both by virtue of dealing with their respective villains.

The power rankings made sense. Pein and Itachi were the ultimate strength we had seen (to the point where a fight between them is tough to call). The Rinnegan was the ultimate dojutsu by a ways, as befitting the legend of the Sage; the Sharingan, even with Susanoo, was still fucking strong. Both had been "overcome" by other, similarly powerful (and original) techniques, which fits firmly into the narrative of the next generation surpassing the previous.

S-rank ninja were scary as fuck, but could still be overcome. We saw that both in the fights against Sasori and Hidan/Kakuzu. Teams of shinobi working in tandem were able to beat them, with casualties. We also had an idea of what a top tier fight would look like in Jiraiya vs Pein, which was fantastically tactical and ended with Jiraiya dying over a lack of information, rather than simply being outgunned.

Minato's legend as the single SS rank shinobi in history was also intact. A reputation that he earned by basically inventing the greatest shinobi technique ever (not stealing it from the Nidaime) and using it to single handedly win a war.

Basically, we had the stage set for a Naruto vs Sasuke clash of ideals that could culminate in a Sage Mode vs Sharingan battle. Sasuke had some raw power to back up his mind, and Naruto had some tactical experience to back up his raw power. Would've been a dope ending.

I may write that...

 

To have a low powered Naruto universe, Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi should definitely be the strongest techniques the Sharingan has to offer.

I also like the idea of ninjutsu having a low success rate of being learned and more fights won through numbers, integration of minor individual skills, and manipulation of the environment.

 

Perhaps not remove the Rinnegan completely but instead make it weaker or have smaller-scale powers?

Some hard limits on it wouldn't hurt.

 

Do you guys have fanfics to recommend in line with the theme of a limited power Naruto world?

There's Gallyrat's Shinobi Team 7, which the author explicitly intends to keep at Part I levels. So something like Sarutobi vs Orochimaru is the peak of shinobi combat, and no one is significantly stronger than an S class ninja like Kakuzu (or any member of Akatsuki). Also look at Youth, the author's quest companion to/alternate take on ST7.

 

Fair enough, I suppose. But then again, explicitly limiting the Rinnegan's abilities is much more difficult than doing it for the Mangekyō Sharingan. Like DrSarcasm and Inert mentioned above, the story (I assume this is all to lay the groundwork for a future story) could just conclude after the Pain arc, with Naruto and Sasuke at the corresponding levels.

Besides that, limits aren't strictly necessary. If you follow along the line of thought above, the only Rinnegan user, Pain, already has weaknesses. His lifespan is shortened using more powerful jutsu, he needs time to recharge Shinra Tensei and Banshō Ten'in, etc.

It's actually surprisingly easy to make this work if you don't extrapolate and exaggerate power levels but keep the whole theme of the Pain arc. That is, there are clearly monstrous ninja out there (Itachi and Pain being monsters among the monsters) but they aren't invincible and they certainly aren't comically easy to overcome. It'd require a concerted effort of a team of ninja to defeat them (see Sasori or Kakuzu) or just a well-matched opponent who knows enough (see Naruto vs Pain or Shikamaru vs Hidan).

Anyways, enough talking. Get to writing, fellows.

In the meantime, I'll try to take my own advice.

 

I didn't mind the portrayal of Hashirama & Madara they were the Legends, pinnacle of shinobi, greatest in history etc...
so yeah they should've been stronger than Pain that part wasn't the issue.

The issue was that Naruto and Sasuke in just last few chapter jump in strength way beyond them, it wasn't even the scale of powers but how easily they got them that bothered me.

 

I think that Twenty Times Uzumaki Naruto Didn't Die captures that feel quite nicely.

 

Shikamaru's arc with Hidan, and Asuma's instance that it is not the Hokage, but the children who are the King and must be protected was one of the best storylines imo. Hashirama and Madara's power levels took a leak all over that. The next generation is always supposed to surpass the last. Having Madara be strong enough to stand against all five Kages with ease was frankly ridiculous, and broke the power scales beyond all possible repair.

 

Given that somebody might use this thread for a reference when writing stories later on, I want to mention something I found.

There are two videos that are relevant to this thread: Shonen Anime's Biggest Problem, and the response video How to Fix Shonen Anime. The point that the two videos make is that shonen anime have the problem of escalation. Each new villain or threat is more deadly than the last, requiring the heroes to grow stronger to defeat them. In itself, this isn't a bad thing--it only really becomes a problem with long-running shonen series that span hundreds to thousands of chapters. The earliest fights in Dragon Ball were simple martial arts tournaments, but flash forward to late DBZ and half the cast are capable of destroying the planet on a whim. This escalation problem can be broken down into two categories: Escalation of Power and Escalation of Stakes. For the most part, I'll leave the explanation to those problems and how to fix them to the above videos.

In the response video, Gigguk proposes one of the solutions to the Escalation of Power is the early inclusion of a power ceiling. For example, in the end of season one of My Hero Academy, we get to see the Superman-equivalent All Might go completely all out against a foe. The protagonist in this show has inherited his specific power, so we get to see exactly how strong he can eventually be. By placing a hard cap on how strong a character can get, we get a sense of scale in how strong the protagonist has grown.

We actually see a perfect example of this in Naruto: the fight between the Third Hokage and Orochimaru during the Chuunin Exams. There we see Orochimaru's eclectic abilities and legendary weapon, the First Hokage's ability to grow a forest at a whim, the Second Hokage's ability to create a small lake's worth of water out of thin air, and the Third Hokage's mastery of every branch of ninjutsu. A little later we see another version with the fight between the three Sannin. These fights match the power levels of my above proposed cutoff point of the Pain fight, with Naruto being on equivalent playing ground.

There are a number of other things that are mentioned in the videos, but I wanted to bring up the specific power ceilings that I felt worth mentioning.

 

I was just thinking along these lines about the latter part of Shippuden when I had the strangest thought. How does Naruto actually access sage mode whilst in his kyuubi form? I mean he has access to all of the nine tails chakra which is quoted throughout the series as "endless" or "infinite" and herein lies the problem. Sage mode is when natural chakra is balanced perfectly at 1/3 the user's chakra but how can you possibly have 1/3 of ∞??

 

Clones or Kuruma himself meditate for him.

Another solution to the power escalation problem is creativity and engaging one brain.
design your character problems in a way, where they need to use different skills, the setting provide advantage/disadvantage to certain skills.
While also preventing short time learning and mastering a single skill, give it a growth curve.

That was more visible in Naruto part 1.
His usage of shadow clones changed over time, (Better tactics and new moves of collaboration between the clones)

Further if the effects of super power moves is lessen and have serious price, "weaker" ninja in great numbers will have more effect.
Gathering intelligence, mapping enemy skills and weakness and than crafting a plan is something that sorely missing in Naruto.
Except Shikamaru battle, but that was even worst.
What only a Nara can do it?

 

I feel like a low-powered Naruto universe would have to change in tone to be consistent, however. If fights are all about what knowledge you have, how quickly you can get what you don't have, and how efficiently you can counter, then Naruto being so dense is asking to be killed very quickly. I know it was commented on in canon, but it would be even worse in this case, especially if the goal was to end up on-par with Kages (or be Hokage in Naruto's case).

For that matter, ANBU would carry a much heavier tone, and the fact that Kakashi spent nearly a decade in the black ops, which would actually function as black ops, would have to mean more than "yeah, that's something I did".

Grimdark isn't necessary, but the canonical 'Talk no Jutsu' just wouldn't cut it, at least in my opinion. I always felt while watching Naruto that Naruto himself was the worst part of the early story, and liked most of the beginning otherwise because the implication that Naruto was going to have to grow up. Or in Sasuke's case, lighten up because shinobi that never ease up end up burnt out or dead, fast .

As it is, though, Naruto is my shit and I'm going to write this. (Honestly I just enjoy rewriting Naruto. I'm doing this with a time travel AU and now I'm just gonna do it with a regular AU.)

 

Just so we're clear: you're doing God's work.