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Quidditch Itself Is Broken, Not the Golden Snitch

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by TLV, Mar 22, 2024.

  1. TLV

    TLV Squib

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    PREFACE:

    This is a very long, very nerdy post that doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of canon. It’s just a talking point I have seen brought up on here, as well as on other forums.


    INTRODUCTION:

    I have four goals in posting this:

    1 - To put forth the argument that the problem with quidditch IS NOT the golden snitch, it is the flawed portrayal of details elsewhere in the game.

    2 - To put forth my actual gripes with quidditch’s ruleset.

    3 - To spark discussion.

    4 - To potentially aid anyone who intends on writing quidditch going forward, if not through my analysis then via providing food for thought.


    SCORING AND THE GOLDEN SNITCH:

    I don’t think it’s unreasonable for the golden snitch to be worth 150 points based on what we are TOLD in canon. I think the problem is that Rowling both had no idea what she was doing when depicting a sport, and by her own admission wrote quidditch as closer to a parody than a logical component of the world.

    Both those factors lead to us being told one thing, then shown something very different.

    The primary example of this is that scoring should be WAY EASIER than it is shown to be.

    A quidditch pitch is roughly 33 metres (108 feet) wide and 60 metres (197 feet) long, according to my research. There are three chasers and two beaters constantly in play, and the average man’s shoulders span roughly 40 cm (16 inches); less than that for most women, as well as adolescents.

    Without going into more math than needed, this means that there would be a huge amount of open space at all times, which makes playing defence an absolute nightmare.

    See the NHL (National Hockey League) instituting 3-on-3 overtime, as opposed to the 4-on-4 format they had been using, to illustrate this point. The league’s hypothesis was that fewer players on the ice would lead to more open space, and more open space would lead to scoring.

    It worked. 3-on-3 overtime is absolute chaos, with play swinging end-to-end at rapid speeds and high-quality scoring chances being swapped back and forth more often than not. There is actually a large portion of the fanbase who dislike the format because it leans so far into creating offence, they view it as a roulette.

    I use hockey as a comparison because the position system is similarly structured, hockey is probably the fastest paced team sport of its kind (at least among the major sports), and because the play area’s dimensions are similar to a quidditch pitch, with an ice hockey rink being 62 metres (203 feet) long and 24 metres (79 feet) wide.

    The comparison is not meant to say quidditch players would score, or even shoot, at a similar rate to hockey—theirs would be much higher in both cases for reasons I’ll get to in a minute—but to illustrate the connection between open space and offence in the most comparable sport I could come up with.

    The open space leading to offence hypothesis is actually even more relevant when discussing quidditch because its players have an entirely separate axis they can utilize—IE maneuvering themselves and/or the quaffle above or below defenders.

    It would also be very easy to create separation between oneself and a defender because they are all moving extremely fast on broomsticks that don’t allow for the smoothest/most agile handling, at least not compared to the way players can effortlessly change directions in many muggle sports.

    To elaborate on that a bit, brooms can turn very sharply, as is seen in canon, but can’t flow seamlessly from one direction to the other or adjust course as easily. This would mean if a defender bit on an attacker’s feint, for instance, it would be far harder for them to adjust and get back into play.

    My assumptions about handling are based both on basic physics, and what we see in canon—think the Wronski Feint’s effectiveness, or how jerky flying is described to be.

    Moving onto the real kicker:

    As far as I can work out—and this was actually a bit of a pain to research because there is a lot of contradictory information out there—is that of the three hoops on each side of the pitch that chasers try to score through, one is 91 centimetres (3 feet) tall, one is 1.37 metres (4.5 feet) tall, and the third is 1.83 metres (6 feet) tall. We know the smallest hoop is in the centre, and that each hoop is separated by 2.3 metres (8 feet) of open space.

    One thing we INFURIATINGLY do not know is the width of each hoop. If we just assume, for the sake of argument, that each hoop is the same width as the space between them, that means if the keeper was hovering directly in front of the middle hoop’s centrepoint, they would have to cover 4.6 metres of space on either side of them, plus the height of each hoop.

    That is a very large area for chasers to shoot at, especially if we accept that broomsticks move more sharply than smoothly, and that they move better linearly than laterally.

    All of this means the following:

    1 - Playing defence in quidditch is EXTREMELY difficult. Your best option would probably be to have two chasers cutting off passing lanes, with a third hounding whoever has possession of the quaffle. Beaters would definitely be able to help out with bludgers, but there is just so much open space. Covering those passing lanes would be an absolute nightmare and it would be far, far easier to swoop past someone than it would be for them to block you. There are just so many more options available for offensive players and so much space to work with.

    2 - There should be many more shots on goal per minute than there are in the books. Given the previous point and the rapid speed of broomsticks (which I’m not touching on because the canon numbers don’t make any sense and I am not a physicist) the action should be swinging end to end every few seconds and both keepers would have to constantly be on guard. They would be peppered with shots on goal.

    3 - Because of points 1 and 2, the scoring should be much higher, keepers should have much lower save percentages, and the goal tallies should rack up much faster.

    4 - Given the projected rate of scoring and that early captures of the snitch are considered rare in canon (see Dumbledore talking to Harry in PS after Gryffindor vs Hufflepuff, as well as how long it took the world’s best seeker at the QWC in GoF) I think the snitch is very important, but far from broken. 150 points would still be significant, but not nearly as impactful as it is in canon.

    5 - Continuing on from point 4, having an amazing seeker is not enough to reliably win games on its own. Opening a 150 point gap should not be as difficult as it is portrayed to be in canon. It would probably be quite common, actually. So sure, a great seeker could make the odd early capture and steal some games their team had no right to win, but single players taking over the odd game like this happens in muggle sports as well.

    6 - For reference, Ireland should have scored at least twice the number of points they did against Bulgaria in the QWC. I actually think that multiple should be higher, but it’s too hard to say since we don’t have a great sense of how much time elapsed during the game.

    So that’s my take on the snitch. I don’t think it breaks quidditch. If the game is portrayed with the offensively leaning variables in mind—which I strongly believe it should be if writers are striving for any degree of realism—I think it works just fine.


    THE THINGS THAT ACTUALLY ARE BROKEN:

    No time limit - While people often forget there are reserves in pro quidditch, this is still absurd. There are only so many reserves and they could not just keep swapping back and forth. Even ignoring things like sleep, their focus would wane to the point of things being even more dangerous than they already are. They also doubtlessly have lives, as do the spectators.

    On that note, most people would not pay to attend a match whose conclusion they might not even get to watch. Shifting weather conditions would also be a hassle, as would brutal chafing if there aren’t spells to prevent it.

    Lack of safety measures - What happens if someone gets hit in the head with a bludger and falls off their broom? The answer is that they die, based on what canon has shown off. While real sports are dangerous and do carry risk of death, the likelihood of this happening in a quidditch match is extremely high. Especially because players should probably be hit with bludgers more often than we see in canon because of the high speed quidditch is played at.

    In addition to bludgers, players could also be knocked off their broom by a collision, loose grip due to chaos/overcommitting, and so many other things. Don’t even get me started on the seeker flying straight into the pitch in GOF—he should have been far worse than unconscious.

    Penalty system - There should be a more nuanced way of penalizing players. Not every infraction is equal and pretending otherwise is madness. If it was only going to lead to a penalty, players would constantly be trying to knock each other off their brooms and we don’t see that, except the odd time between Gryffindor and Slytherin. Even then it’s more a case of carelessness than pragmatism.

    Weather - The fact quidditch games at a school go on during a proper storm is insane. I know the probability of children on broomsticks being struck by lightning isn’t super high, but it’s still possible. Playing an extremely dangerous sport with limited visibility is also crazy.

    If you want to get around this by having wizards be able to alter the weather, then that’s fine. Just so long as it’s addressed in some fashion…

    The physics make no sense - The G-forces associated with quidditch alone would ravage anyone who played it. There would be frequent blackouts and almost perpetual greyouts. That’s not even accounting for the other, more direct forces exerted on your body and all the trouble they would cause.

    If anyone who reads this is more versed in physics than I am—which I’m sure will be the case—I would be very interested in seeing this point expanded on.

    Physical difficulty - While the common portrayal of quidditch players building things like cardiovascular endurance just by sitting on a broom is rubbish, quidditch would take a toll. The idea that you just learn how to fly and you can start playing quidditch does not hold up. You would need excellent core strength as well as shocking amounts of muscular endurance in your hands, wrists, forearms, and other areas contributing to grip. It would also be highly demanding on your glutes, groin, and hamstrings in particular. Groin injuries/strained hamstrings should be pretty common unless people come up with magical preventions. Think of it like horseback riding, but far more extreme, in harsher conditions, and at a constant gallop.

    Spectators - There should be protection for the spectators. The likelihood of a bludger being knocked into the crowd, or even the quaffle being mishandled, is quite high. Players could also overshoot pretty easily at the speeds they’re moving. It would also be very easy to subtly interfere from the crowd like we see from Quirrell in PS This one’s easily fixed, it just should be fixed.

    Anti-cheating precautions - This point is pretty straightforward—think about all the ways you could cheat in quidditch using magic, either before or during the match. At the very least, every player should be checked to ensure they don’t have their wand. I could go on and on here; there are so many subtle enchantments, potions, or bits of sabotage that could sway the game.


    CONCLUSION:

    The title says it all—quidditch is broken, the golden snitch is not.

    I really don’t think the snitch is the problem. I have seen great stories fix’ quidditch by just having the capture of the snitch end the game. While that does add a layer of strategy and I’m not saying it’s wrong or invalid, I think it shifts the focus of the game unnecessarily and reduces the sense of chaos that makes quidditch special.

    But I’m sure some people on here have differing opinions, so I would love to see what you all think!


    PS: The converted measurements are rounded to the nearest foot for the sake of simplicity and it is absolutely possible I was misled in regards to dimensions when researching. Though if I’m being honest, I think the addition of a vertical axis and the handling of brooms pretty much guarantees an absurdly high-scoring sport regardless.


    It should also be noted that my focus on the snitch was much more thorough than my critiques of quidditch—the latter was more just spitballing to make the point that there are far more problems than the one most commonly focused on.
     
  2. TheWiseTomato

    TheWiseTomato Prestigious Tomato ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    You raise an interesting topic and make some good points, but you also don't account for magic in a few places, particularly the physical aspects and dangers.
     
  3. Iztiak

    Iztiak Prisoner DLP Supporter

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    A lot of interesting points that I haven’t seen before, nicely written out.

    I just wanted to address one point with some interesting information that I came across some time ago:

    While you’re correct that this is absurd, it’s not an unprecedented absurdity.

    I’m not an expert on this topic so feel free to jump in and correct me if I’m mistaken, but up until 1939, I believe Cricket had no time limit. The longest professional match on record was England vs South Africa: The game started on 3 March 1939 and play continued on the 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 13th and the 14th. Play was scheduled for the 11th, but none was possible because of rain, giving 9 days of actual play and 10 days of scheduled play.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playing_time_(cricket)#The_longest_Test

    These matches were called Timeless tests, and I‘ve linked below to the wikipedia page which I found pretty interesting.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeless_Test

    Similarly baseball still has no time limit, but I imagine the format of the sport effectively manages the length on its own, since the longest MLB game on record is only 8 hours of play over two days.

    Again, ridiculous, but I can definitely see the absurd wizarding world embracing this style of rule.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2024
  4. AgentSatan

    AgentSatan Third Year

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    I’m sorry, but Quidditch is brilliant. I’ve never seen any other fantasy series create such an original sport that works close to as well. Plus, it feels magical in a way I wish we got more of from Rowling.

    Most of your concerns can be taken care of with some imagination. Wizards can regrow limbs, so concussions aren’t an issue; stop thinking like such a muggle. Also, if matches stretched days, they could be adjourned.

    As far as defense goes, I imagine it’s something like basketball. The game is tilted towards offense, and defense is a question of how good a team is in comparison to their competition. You’re probably right that Rowling didn’t make the scores high enough though.
     
  5. TLV

    TLV Squib

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    Oh, magic could absolutely be the solution to most of my gripes with quidditch, and I actually think it should be. I was more just bringing up holes canon seemingly ignored rather than patched up for the sake of pointing out that there are other fixable things to focus on aside from the often ridiculed golden snitch.
     
  6. TLV

    TLV Squib

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    My goal definitely wasn’t to demean quidditch, in case that’s what you’re worried about. I mostly wanted to push back against people who complain about the snitch and just thought I’d throw some small gripes of my own in at the end.

    There are two things you said I’d like to specifically address, though:

    The first is concussions. I don’t think these should be handwaved and I don’t think your logic holds water here. Regrowing limbs is a very different process than nulling a concussion. Wizards have canonically been shown to possess great expertise when healing physical damage, but I don’t think they’re all that versed when it comes to treating the brain. Lockhart’s condition is never really remedied and when reading OotP, I get the impression they just make him comfortable and hope he recovers on his own. The same can be said for the Longbottoms, though that is of course a more extreme example. I also think it’s worth mentioning that mental deficiencies are mentioned, at least indirectly, quite a bit throughout the series, with characters being described as loopy, loony (I don’t mean Luna), or just cracked. I don’t think this diction would be as prevalent if wizards could just heal the brain as easily as they could an arm or leg.

    Secondly on adjourning—this would work, as you say. The problem is that it’s implied this doesn’t happen. We are very much given the impression that reserves just swap in and out. I believe it’s Ron who mentions a match going for a month straight. I think the word straight is key here, as it implies no breaks in action. I should probably have clarified in my original post that this is the insane part. Like someone mentioned above, cricket had a similar ruleset for a long time, it just had the common sense to implement breaks.

    That being said, I do agree with your general point. I think quidditch gets way too much slack, which is part of the reason why I wanted to dive a bit deeper. I think it deserves a bit more fleshing out because as you said, it feels magical in a way few things do, and I think that air is all but lost in fanfiction.
     
  7. TLV

    TLV Squib

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    Cricket isn’t really my wheelhouse, but I’ve seen that point brought up before and it’s a good one. I think the difference is that cricket had the common sense to adjourn during sessions, where quidditch is continuous under almost every circumstance. If you added inforced breaks overnight and whatnot, it could definitely work.

    I didn’t mention it in my post, but I also think your point about the Wizarding world accepting wacky rules is very important. It’s why I’m personally not a fan of just making the snitch’s capture end the game. It feels too cut and dry for the world and doesn’t really carry the wow factor it’s going for.
     
  8. AgentSatan

    AgentSatan Third Year

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    Nope, you’re still thinking like a muggle. Lockhart and the Longbottoms both experienced serious magical damage. The cruciatus is a nasty piece of dark magic which is not at all comparable to blunt trauma from a flying iron ball.

    As far as Luna goes, listen, her only problem is being weird. You’re posting in a hp fanfic forum. It’s friendly fire to think of ‘fixing’ loony people as a desirable outcome.
     
  9. TLV

    TLV Squib

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    I think Luna is fantastic, I only included the parenthetical qualifier so no one assumed I was trying to refer to her.

    Regarding concussions - we know magic can’t just fix them, so there isn’t really a debate here. It’s stated that Uric the Oddball suffered from one’s impacts for ten days after walking into a wall. If magic could heal a concussion, I don’t think this would have been mentioned. There are also other examples of ‘muggle’ ailments that aren’t just magically wiped away. If these kinds of injuries during quidditch were of no concern, then numerous players would not end up in the hospital wing for days on end.

    As for ‘thinking like a muggle’ we’ll have to agree to disagree. I think you’re simplifying a complex issue to the point of trivialization without any evidence to support your assertion past fanon portrayals, which holed about as much water as a toddler’s cupped hands. The Longbottoms’ condition ,for me, has nothing to do with the specific magic used. It’s a real-world effect manifested via magic. If the brain experiences too much torment, it will retreat. That’s pretty clearly what that is, in my opinion. The Cruciatus Curse does not inherently cause that, or else it would be far more common. It’s the extended exposure that’s responsible, hence prolonged torment. Even Lockhart’s condition is more complicated than “Magic, innit?”. Sure magic caused it, but it’s not a unique effect. The symptoms he suffers are actually pretty common among amnesia victims, or those who have suffered memory loss via head trauma.

    I don’t think making real world connections is thinking like a muggle, I think it’s analyzing on a deeper level and searching for flexibility within the text, as well as wanting to flesh out ideas. I’m not a fan of saying, “Magic did it, so no other rules apply”. We actually see that idea contradicted numerous times throughout the series. Magic is not a fix all, neither is it a force whose effects can never be fixed via means beyond the scope of magic.
     
  10. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    Quidditch isn't broken, absurdity is the point, wizards are absurd.
     
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