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Understanding Grindelwald

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by Wynter, Mar 27, 2014.

  1. Wynter

    Wynter Order Member

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    Hey guys, a friend recently posted a challenge where:

    And for some reason, the first character to hit me was Grindelwald, so I was wondering through the work, what references to Grindelwald were there and how could I turn him from the evil badass mofo to an evil person doing things for the right reasons. For the "Greater Good." As it were?

    Any help would be great, has to be a 5k oneshot, I was thinking of a scene where Dumbledore has finally come to battle him in 1945 and he flashbacks to meeting, Dumbledore, Arianna's death, stealing the Elder Wand etc; in different transitions. But I'm really open to some help, any would be great.
     
  2. Steelbadger

    Steelbadger Death Eater

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    They way I see it is that there are two interpretations of Grindelwald. One is a master manipulator who managed to get someone as brilliant as Albus Dumbledore to sing from his hymn sheet through lies and misdirection. This character is, to me at least, rather boring.

    The alternative interpretation is that he truly believed in what he was doing, that he was deeply conflicted by the suffering he was causing but going ahead anyway because he was sure it was the only way to save everyone. Think Watchmen's Ozymandias.

    The first thing I see in Grindelwald is the childish assertion that 'I could do this better!'. He looked at all the greedy, small minded and cruel people in the world and thought 'there people cannot be allowed to lead'. He then followed that with 'To stop them, I shall lead in stead. I will know not to make those mistakes and things will be better'.

    He got so invested in that logic that he was eventually able to go so far as to kill others in the pursuit of his ultimate goal. After all, if he can eliminate suffering for all of humanity, surely that's worth a life? Even a hundred lives, a thousand, would pale into insignificance against the utopia he could usher in.

    Every man/woman/child he killed was a tragedy, but a necessary one. They died so that everyone else could live. He may even assuage his guilt by saying that 'if they understood what was at stake' his victims would agree with his actions. Because each death weighs heavily upon his conscience they start to warp his perception of future deaths. Suddenly those whom he has already killed would be killed needlessly, murdered, if he was to stop now. Only by seeing his plan through to the end can he make their deaths mean something, he owes it to them.

    Look at the time period he inhabited. Often it is assumed that Grindelwald had some hand in the Nazi rise, but what if it was WW1 and WW2 that got him to the point where he was willing to kill to stop them. Perhaps his plan was to unify the wizarding world so that he could rescue the muggles from themselves.

    Just a few ideas, I'd given it some thought already as I'd been toying with a one-shot idea very similar to yours.
     
  3. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    You might like to read the first chapter of my fic The One He Feared for some ideas/inspiration. It's essentially... this.
     
  4. Rhaegar I

    Rhaegar I Death Eater

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    In order to understand my interpretation of Grindelwald, we would have to start out with WWI.

    Just imagine, for a moment, how wizards interpreted the destruction of that War. Even if the Wards were powerful enough to save them from most of the damage, they would literally have to live in a cave to know nothing of that War. I could see entire villages forced to evacuate, where the wizards escape but the buildings destroyed. Empires that were probably fine letting wizards do their own thing are replaced by more nationalistic nations who want to turn wizards into their loyal citizens.

    It would have been a life-altering era for wizards then, especially the ones who lived in places with most of the damage. They were confronted with the reality muggles aren't just mindless sheep. Now they're mindless wolves, capable of killing millions in brief periods of time.

    Then entered Grindelwald. I like to imagine he sees the town he grew up in, maybe some meaningful place to him, destroyed in some pointless battle. He knew, in that moment that muggles were not to be underestimated. He feared muggles would one day destroy all of wizardry, or even the planet, in an act of mindless savagery. He formulates a plan then and there, to unite the planet, but especially wizards, under a single, benevolent dictatorship, ruled by him. His Greater Good is making sure the world can one day exist in peace, where the wizards keep the muggles in line for their own good.

    Of course, he does have his flaws. He hesitates to attack Britain, because of Dumbledore. He acts a big too aggressively towards Russia, whom he hates in particular for what they did back in WWI. He refused to do any work on nuclear weapon, since he views them as the ultimate example of Muggle savagery. And he sorely underestimates American wizards, who in my Head-Canon were a Sleeping Giant fathered by "squibs and mudbloods and blood traitors" escaping Europe.

    Granted, a lot of this relies on my Head-Canon, which I'm sure more than a few people will disagree with it, but there you go. My interpretation of Grindelwald, a greater Big Bad than Voldemort ever was.
     
  5. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Since we're talking headcanon...

    For me the difference between Grindelwald and Voldemort was that Grindelwald was essentially a politician. His magical ability was immense, but almost superfluous, as he acted via political means. People were never so much afraid of Grindelwald the person as much as they were afraid of the institutions he oversaw.

    Voldemort, on the other hand, sold himself essentially as a god. He deliberately created in people's minds the image of Voldemort the boogieman, You-Know-Who. People feared the Death Eaters, but mostly they feared Voldemort himself. The Death Eaters were essentially an extension of Voldemort's cult of personality.

    So Voldemort was a Bigger Bad the Grindelwald because Grindelwald wasn't a Big Bad at all. He was a powerful political figure, likely extremely popular (in certain countries, among the mainstream) at the height of his influence.

    Incidentally, my headcanon has Grindelwald as politically active from before WWI.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
  6. Rhaegar I

    Rhaegar I Death Eater

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    Maybe that's why I find Grindelwald a better villain than Voldemort. I am honestly more terrified of the Politician than the card-carrying Bad Guy. To me, knowledge is power, and Grindelwald beats Voldemort by a wide margin on that one.
     
  7. ehrenyu

    ehrenyu Fourth Year

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    I always saw Grindelwald as truly believing that he was doing everything for the Greater Good and Dumbledore got swept into it.

    Yes, this exactly. Grindelwald was always a hugely charismatic politician in my mind. He wasn't fixated on scaring everyone senseless since he wanted it to be a group effort to the greater good.

    I probably would add an incompetent Wizarding government that did nothing to protect its wizard/witch population from the horrors of WWI.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
  8. Nerox

    Nerox High Inquisitor

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    Will there be an update soon?
     
  9. CrackedMind

    CrackedMind Chief Warlock

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    This is where my liking your headcanon veered far off to the right. I'm American, so I've been guilty of it in writing and in how I think, but too often writers, us Americans in particular, like to have their country solve all the problems/be better than any other country. Too often people write America as this utopian society that is 300% better than the bigotry of the British wizarding community. Also, I'm not really sure what he'd have had to do with the A-bombs/Nuclear bombs, but I've ranted enough by this point.

    Taure's headcanon is what I'll pretend was also what I thought, because it's certainly how I'll think of Grindelwald from now on.
     
  10. AlbusPHolmes

    AlbusPHolmes The Alchemist

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    Also, Grindelwald's anti-muggle prejuidices stem from before the start of the World War I. His pre-Dumbledore backstory and his motivations for his sentiments are unknown, but I think he already genuinely believed that wizards belonged at the helm of humanity as benevolent and powerful rulers over muggles. Whether it was because of some tragic incident with the muggles is unlikely, but I think he might just have taken a careful look at the muggle society and decided it was in need of help. As at the time of meeting Dumbledore, he already knew about the Hallows, and was likely already seeking them as a means to power.

    One of my fics (The Last stand, in my sig) explores his and Dumbledore's relationship in a bit more depth (currently in the most recent update they are just meeting), and the circumstances that led to their fallout, their gradually diverging ideologies and individual rises to power, and the final confrontation.

    While Grindelwald was never quite the sociopath Voldemort was, he was still arrogant and had a streak of cruelty against anything that interfered in the pursuit of his goals, given that we learn he indulged in some barbarity in Durmstrang that saw him kicked out (also see, his torture of Aberforth).

    In essence however, he had a vision of wizardly superiority, and eventually became so swept up in it that any casualties were worth the final end goal. In his mind he was acting for humanity's best interests, and history shows that politics is perhaps the strongest instrument for change.

    In my head canon, the World War II was a direct product of his vision, while he believed muggles to be inferior, as a German he believed the German muggles to be the pinnacle of muggle perfection, and they were his tool to subjugate the muggle world on one front while he dealt with any wizardly resistance on the other, using charisma, and force when necessary. Hitler and the Nazis were his pawns (through careful misdirection), and Hitler's madness was his handiwork.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014
  11. Rhaegar I

    Rhaegar I Death Eater

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    Perhaps I should specify on that bit: American wizards were essentially viewed the same way as muggles: not all that powerful, too isolationist to actually do anything, and even if they did act, it wouldn't really make that much of a difference.

    And in the Head Canon, Magical America is explicitly not a utopia, since they share many of the same bigotry as muggle Americans do with a Magic twist. Black wizards, for example, are believed to have inferior Magic abilities than whites.
     
  12. Spanks

    Spanks Chief Warlock

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    In her most recent update on Pottermore JKR talked about the history of the Quidditch World Cup. In it she mentioned that some countries have populations small enough that they can't even form a Quidditch team for the world cup. Given that new information my new headcanon says that the USA has a small magical population.

    My reason being that most magical people probably didn't immigrate with the muggles when Europe was high on imperialism. I'm sure that a small few did wind up hitching a ride to the new world, but not enough to create a significant population, and given how rarely magic appears in muggles there probably haven't been enough muggleborn's to maintain a large population at any given time.

    My guess is that magic in the US is focused in the New England area with a small population that attends a small school.

    Any others think the same?
     
  13. Rhaegar I

    Rhaegar I Death Eater

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    I disagree with you for two key reasons:

    1. Native American wizards. Pretty racist to think they don't exist.

    2. As I understand it, more than a few "squibs and mudbloods and blood traitor" immigrated to the colonies. Some did it because they had nothing left to lose, while others were probably forced there by relatives to hide the "disgrace". I can also imagine a few better-off wizards settling in the Americas for a chance at a way to make a fortune.
     
  14. Spanks

    Spanks Chief Warlock

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    1) Perhaps I'm racist ;) I've always thought of Native Americans as magical negative. Since JKR decided that magic was genetic it's possible that the magic gene didn't show up in the natives.

    Though, I also like the idea that the US wizarding world is 98% Native American and they too hate muggles because of what they did to their ancestors (Trail of Tears, and some say legal genocide). It's also possible that any native wizards got killed off by muggles.

    2) I personally feel that the "squibs, mudbloods and blood traitors" that possibly immigrated were insignificant in number. I'm not that great at math, but there are so few people in the wizarding world that I can't see there being that many people who fall under those labels, and those that do don't add up enough to create a large European population in the new world.

    Also relevant to that Quidditch article JKR mentions that the UK is a country with well known blood purity problems implying that most of the world doesn't give a hoot about purebloods/muggleborns. So, countries like France/Germany/rest of Europe probably didn't have a lot of wizards leaving for those reasons.

    Christ, I'm getting way to into my headcanon. Too many hypothetical ideas and no proof. I know there's an old thread for this kind of discussion >_> /end derail
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014
  15. Krieger

    Krieger Minister of Magic DLP Supporter

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    I've never understood why people believe there would be such a gap magically between countries and continents etc. This is the magical world, instant teleportation has potentially been around for thousands of years, things like traveling time etc., which muggles had to endure far worse then wizards and hence were one of the reasons there was such a diverse gap in knowledge in the muggle world, are all but non-existent in the magical world.

    If someone invents a new spell or device in the magical world, it can quite literally be physically on the opposite side of the world within minutes. So fics where one country is far ahead of the rest of the world don't make any sense. At least with the muggle world they still have to wait days for material to circulate, which is only recent within the last century or so, that has never been the case in the magical world.

    Because of said transportation, I've always felt the magical world would also have much looser ideas of country and boundaries. I mean if you can pop around the world at will location and community would be much more diverse than just the physical location of your home.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014
  16. ehrenyu

    ehrenyu Fourth Year

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    Well, America has a national team, the American National Quidditch team, based in New England... but they almost never make the brackets for the World Cup, though I blame it on the fact that Quodpot is more popular than Quidditch in the U.S.A. magical world.

    As for the other teams there's the Sweetwater All-Stars, which is based in Texas, and the Fitchburg Finches in Massachusetts. They have to have enough Quidditch Teams to make sense as to why the U.S.A. has its own Quidditch League: the United States League. So... I don't think the U.S.A. has a small wizarding population if you're going by Quidditch.

    The ONLY time it would make sense to me is if a wizarding country decided to cut off all Floo portals and restrict Apparation by setting up a network of anti-Apparation wards (a tedious draining task if you're a big country). I would think only a country like North Korea would do something so nutty like that; I could even foresee a country doing it for some protectionist blood purist idolatry nonsense even.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014
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