Does anyone here know what the hell the so-called Order of the Phoenix does?

They don't fight D.E.'s;

They don't get information about Voldemort's movements or his minions, except for the flawed information some greasy asswipe James Bond wannabe chooses to divulge;

They don't seem to inconvenience the mean dark wizards in anyway;

The only thing they seem to do is gather around a table and have dinner.

So, anyone has any idea on what they really do, or are they simply another one of JK's page-fillers?

 

There are many clues as to what they do in the books.

-In OotP, as Voldemort was not out in the open, their main task was to increase awareness of his resurection, and to recruit and increase their numbers (for example Tonks).

-They also recieve information on what Voldemort is planning through Snape (though HBP puts this info in a more dubious light).

-They guard things they don't want Voldemort to get (e.g. the prophesy, Harry)

-They offer protection to people hunted by Lord Voldemort (eg the Potters)

-They fight Death Eaters when Death Eaters actually do an attack (DoM fight, fight in Hogwarts in HBP)

-They try to make allies, or stop Voldemort getting allies (eg the Giants and Werewolves)

They probably do other things that we're not aware of due to our limited comprehension of the Wizarding world (the only part of Wizarding Britain we really know about is Hogwarts).

All these things that they do can easily be seen in the books, which leads me to believe that you either haven't read the books before commenting on them, or you have simply jumped on the JKR-hating bandwagon of thinking that the OotP is incompetent (fueled by fanfics like Scorpian Sorcerer) without thinking about it for yourself. Neither are good options.

People are so eager to go on about how little the OotP does, but there are two things I would like to bring up:

1. They still have to operate within the law unless they want to be viewed by the Ministry as terrorists themselves.

2. You say that the OotP is just one of JKRs page fillers because you don't see them doing much, but what exactly do the death eaters do? All we've seen them doing is trying to steal a prophesy, sneaking into Hogwarts to kill Dumbledore, and try to make allies of the Giants. All of these things the OotP were present at too.

EDIT: Just remembered the 2 muggle killing sessions mentioned at the beginning of HBP.

 

No, I was talking about what they actually do to fight Voldemort.

They are incompetent, I mean, what good are people like Fletcher and Molly Weasley?

Are you saying people like Tonks or Kingsley are effective at fighting? They had their asses handed to them by the D.E.'s.

And yes, they supposedly protect people, like the Potters, and Harry (that says a lot about their level of so-called competence, doesn't it?)

And they guard a prophecy that can only be retrieved by those it concerns, namely Harry and Voldemort; I can clearly see Arthur Weasley or Dedalus Diggle going against Voldemort if he broke into the ministry, after all they're sooo powerful!

So, I'll repeat myself: What does the Order actually do, that has any worth?

Yes, I read the books, and my questions still stand.



P.S.Death Eaters are thugs and terrorists, and have the natural advantage while the rest of their world fights a reactive war, so they don't need to be competent.

 

That's a nice bit of selective information there. You deliberately choose 2 of the worst people in the Order. Perhaps you should think of some of the other members, such as Dumbledore (definatly not useless, though he is dead now), or Kingsley (took down 2 Death Eaters in the DoM before being taken down by Bellatrix, also kept the Ministry off Sirius for quite some time).

As for Fletcher, it is my suspicion and many others that he will be the key to finding the Locket horcrux.

See above. Kinsley took out 2 Death Eaters before he was put out of action. Besides, the key strength of the order is covert action, not in direct fighting, so fighting ability is of secondary importance.

The Potter's would have been fine if not for a traitor. Again you have deliberatly selected partial information. You have missed out that they managed to hide Sirius for several years, and that they have managed to keep the Order HQ a secret.

Erm...did you even read the fifth book? Voldemort did enter the ministry to get the prophesy, and the Order were succesful in keeping him from getting it.

So, I shall repeat myself, and say that you either haven't read the books, or you think it's fashionable to rant about how inept the order is, Scorpian Sorcerer style. It's a pity that you missed that phase in fanfiction by about a year, it's considered a clishe now.

Oh well, you are the Weakest Link, goodbye.

 

When, apart from on a couple of occassions do we have the chance to see them fighting. Only when Harry is there. There could have been hundreds of small skirmishes during HBP that we don't know about.

Have a look at the structure of any army. Not everyoen is there to fight. Who makes a better Quartermaster than a woman who loves housework and raised 7 children. She knows how to feed large groups of people, she can almost certainly do some basic medical magic etc.

Dung has a lot of contacts among the underground criminals and such like. Where else would you get information about DE movement, apart from from Snape, who can't tell you everything so that his position is not jeapordised.

Everyone in the Order has a purpose, jsut not every purpose is to fight.

Tonks, was bearely out the Auror Academy or whatever they get trained at. She was a rookie. Of course she would get taken down quickly.

KIngsley, I don't recall him being mentioned as a member of the Order in the first war, so I would assume he was just finishing school or something around then. He has only ever served in a peacetime environment, and despite training, he might not be prepared for fighting people who use every dirty trick, and who's repetoire of spells is restricted to those that carry a sentence in azkaban.

With the Potters, they gave them the best damned protection they could. It was Lily and James' own fault that they were betrayed. If they had chosen Dumbledore, who there was no chance had been comprimised, then they would have survived. Instead they picked a weak willed hanger on, which was literally deathly stupid.

Harry, they can't do over much. There is no evidence in the books that he is physically abused. Yes, it mentions Petunia taking a swing at him with a wet pan, but thats probably cause it was in her hand, and she would just have slapped him around the head once if she hadn't had it. A case of absent mindedness. She also didn't try have retribution on Harry later for it, despite not having actually hit him. She jsut forgets about the incident. There are blood wards on the house to keep him safe, so the Order does not need to concern themselves overly about him. They have a member there in case of an attack to summon help. The only reason he was attacked by Dementors, is that Dung cut out early. Which is to be expected from a drunken criminal. Yes, it was stupid to trust Dung that much, but Dumbledore has a trusting nature, as most good teachers do.

They don't maintain a guard on the prophecy to stop Voldemort if he comes, it will be to alert Dumbledore and the Order that the Ministry has been breached.

We have no idea how powerful either of those men are. Just because Arthur is lowly ranked at the Ministry, doesn't mean that he isn't powerful. As Ron said, he likes his job, and they obviously manage to survive on his pay, so why go to another job that doesn't deal with what he likes, even if he would get paid a larger amount. Diggle made it rain shooting stars in northern England is I remember correctly. To me, that sounds like quite a powerful spell. Its either one hell of an advanced summoning charm, or extremely powerful transfiguration/conjuration or a massive illusion. Again, jsut because his attitude is one of an excited 7 year old on a sugar high, doesn't mean he isn't powerful. It is said he doesn't have any common sense, that doesn't mean he is weak. We know he isn't up to Dumbledores standards powerwise, but only Voldemort is.

I think I just refuted all your points. THink about a post before you make. Ensure that your points are accurate and not just your opinion.

So, your saying that evil can be incompetant a it likes, but good must be flawless? The best laid plans will fall apart if those who execute them have brains the size of apple pips. An incompetant death eater would not last long. Eitehr Voldemort, the Order or Aurors would pick them off.

EDIT: DAmn you Taure, got there before I did. But I will leave my post as is I think.

 

Again, I think you all missed my point; yes, I think they are incompetent as a whole, and that's my personal opinion.

But, going by the information on the books, I really don't think they make a difference in countering Voldemort, mainly because they fail at most of what they set out to do.

Voldemort wouldn't have been so feared during his first rise if they were actually any good, and I don't believe that changed, at least I didn't get that impression from the books.

My intention in posting this thread wasn't to bash the order, but to ask people if they think the order does anything constructive, which I haven't seen so far, not even by those examples set by Taure.

 

The Order is no military force and they don't claim to be. If you remember the stories of people who were in some resistance during WWII, there is more to a war, especially one like in HP with terrorist tactics.
The lesson there is that you need to make the public aware of what happens, to be vigil and to convince them that everyone can do something. Otherwise its a war between 50 people with lots of bloodshed on the sidelines.
You need people to stir rumours in the right direction and give them hope. The ministry was not doing that very important piece of warfare and they payed for it.
Remember: Fighting a war is much more then blowing someones ass of on some battlefield.

 

Listen kid, you've ignored every post countering your own since the start of this discussion. From out here it looks to me like you've lost the right to even post in your own thread you got bashed so hard. I'll not bother writing out a long post as Taure pretty much summed up what I would have said... though it could use a bit more insulting. I guess you're lucky Taure beat me to it .

This is the image you're projecting at the moment, so unless you truly hate the books you may want to tone it down a bit. And if you do hate the books... well... what the fuck are you even doing here?

 

actually, I was looking for the kind of response olfrik gave; but if you think insults will do any good, feel free.

 

Have you read about a canon world without an OotP and with Voldemort? No. Therefore that comment is null and void.

Voldemort is a terrorist using, in essence, guerilla tactics. With all their might and power, can the West stop Al Qaeda? No. Can the OotP stop Voldemort? No.

Then you are blinded by your hatred of canon.

A better question would have been: Can the Order do anything now that Dumbledore is dead? I would say no - simply because they no longer have someone who is powerful enough to hold his own against Voldemort.

 

Heh, I don't hate canon, just HBP.

But I feel the Order is just a page-filler; If you read a book, any book, and you're introduced to a group of people who have a common cause,a worthy cause, isn't it normal you want to know more about them?

But the way the Order has been treated in the books makes it look like an excuse to input some secondary characters; maybe that's just me, but I don't think they'll ultimately make a difference, especially with Dumbles gone.

 

Everything we know about the order is from Harry's perspective. He is a kid and he knows almost nothing. The large amounts of fanfic's were Dumbledore resides over the order meeting like a teacher over his children is a scenario that is always used to badmouth the individuals in the order.

How do we know that the attack on Arthur Weasley in OoTP was the only attempt to get to the prophesy without involving Harry? How do we know what they did in HBP? We know nothing because Harry knows nothing. That doesnt mean that they don't do anything.

And we don't know anything about the organizational structure of the order. It could very well be that Dumbledore was only the figurehead, but gave the actual organization and practical leading to Moody. He certainly would have had timing problems otherwise.

 

I agree with Soulforger; Nothing that the Order ever does seems very effective. I mean, what kind of vigilante group they are, if they don't go out and attack DE supporters and publicly available members (like Malfoy in OOTP)? If they are NOT illegal militia, then what good they are, other than acting as Harry's bodyguards?

It seems that all they do is gather around and fill their arses with mother cow's cooking, as if the Ministry doesn't feed them enough. Even information sharing they do is susceptible at best, seeing how it's done in front of
1) Snape the double agent
2) Bunch of people who don't know the first thing about Occlumency

I agree about the Prophecy comment too; it's not like they would have fought off Voldemort if he tried to get it himself; they'd probably just called Dumbledore and alerted the regular aurors.

But then again, what does Voldemort and death eaters do? In OOTP, they sit on their arses and wait for Harry to rush out and take the Prophecy. In HBP, they seem to run around, killing random people. There's no indication of any meaningful strategy on either side of the conflict.

In short, JKR is maybe good at writing children books, but she should leave descriptions of war and military tactics to someone else.

 

That's precisely the point. This is a children's book hence why any refernces to the war are from Harry's POV. Also why all they information they get is supplied by the Daily Prophet. That's also why there won't be any gore in the seventh book.

 

I also agree with Soulforger, though I don't think that he phrased the question very well. The Order seems to have an ambiguous purpose. Are they morale boosters, motivational speakers or a vigilante group? I got the impression in OotP, that both sides were building their armies, so to speak. Voldemort was dead set on retrieving the prophecy, so the Order tried to stop him. Now, Voldemort is attacking innocent people, but the Order isn't mentioned really doing anything. Remus is out trying to sway the werewolves, sure, but that's all the information that we have. Basically, the Order is reacting to whatever Voldemort does.

He starts recruiting? So does the Order. He sends envoys to the giants? So does the Order. He tries to sway the werewolves? So does the Order. But we never get a mention of the Order taking the initiative and doing something.

There were mentions in HBP that Voldemort killed Emmeline Vance and Madam Bones. He set the giants on the Muggle World, and at the end of HBP, they stormed Hogwarts, killing Dumbledore and maiming Bill Weasley.

 

Killing Dumbledore was the only useful thing they've managed. And that seemed as just a fluke too. I mean, Voldemort had sent Draco against Dumbledore more for his personal amusement and as a punishment for Lucius, than because he really believed the ferret could make the hit.

The rest was exactly what I'm talking about - they've killed bunch of people, but were they closer to taking over the wizarding world than they've been a year or two ago? No.

 

Killing Amelia Bones isn't exactly a 'random death'. She's the Head of MLE is she not? Killing her would ignite even more fear as she's probably had a lot of defenses. Dunno about Vance, she could serve some purpose as well.

We don't know that because we were fed info through Harry's POV. Basically, we know next to nothing.

 

You're all right. And Master Slytherin's prospect for book 7 is frightening; how can Voldemort be killed without a bit of gore?

She'll have to include at least some violence; if Bill Weasley's face was mauled, we can at least hope to see people blown to bits, right?

 

i think you are viewing the job of the order wrong.


the people who are doing nothing and that are worthless are the aurors (and so called hit wizards, unspeakables that we know nothing about), so yeah the entire ministry is worthless.


the order should be like the CIA and the NSA combined and the aurors should be the FBI, what i want to know is how does a society survive without some sort of military force cause its not like wizards are portrayed as peace loving.