Can you apparate or make a portkey to a location you see via legilimency or pensieve memory?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Reiku, Mar 28, 2018.

  1. Ninclow

    Ninclow Fourth Year

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    131
    High Score:
    0
    I know it is made by the Portus spell, the object will glow with a faint, blue hue and start vibrating slightly then fall to rest. I suppose that the specifics, as in, whether it is meant to transport someone on contact or only after a given time has passed depends on the intent of the person turning an object into a portkey (without saying that for certain), kind of how like the Memory Charm only removes certain, specific memories from the minds of Muggles relating to the magic they saw when used by trained Obliviators enforcing wizarding secrecy.

    I'd like to know how anyone could possibly visualize a location without any knowledge of its terrain...
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
  2. Ninclow

    Ninclow Fourth Year

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    131
    High Score:
    0
    During an interview, when Rowling was asked why Newt didn't simply apparate to USA, Rowling's reply was as follows:

    "Apparition becomes increasingly risky over long distances. As with most magic, much depends on the skill of the spell-caster: Apparition requires knowledge of the terrain to which one is moving, or the ability to visualise it clearly. Cross-continental Apparition would almost certainly result in severe injury or death. Moreover, the beasts in Newt's case had varying magical natures. Some could have Apparated with him, but others could not."

    Source: Here.
     
  3. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    5,328
    Location:
    Hbg., Germany
    Quite. And you seem to ignore the second part of that quote, as I said. As for your objection to that,
    You imagine what it would look like. And this is enough Because Magic. For example.

    However, the argument about what apparition can do isn't one because we see what it can do in Canon. And that is getting you to places you haven't been to before. So however it works, it works. And as far as distance is concerned, it gets you e.g. from the English south coast all the way up to Scotland, or from Lake District all the way up to Scotland -- basically the entire length of Britain.

    By any reasonable interpretation of what we are shown, apparation is very versatile, if not too easy to master. But once you do, it appears to be the first choice for a wizard to travel around the country.
     
  4. Lindsey

    Lindsey Death Eater

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2010
    Messages:
    946
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    It makes sense. On an average day, you tend to go to the same couple of places, and thus, apparation is safe and easy. And with the majority of the wizarding world shops being located in the same villages, the average wizard rarely needs to go somewhere they have never been before.

    Pottermore does have an article stating that modified cars are popular as well, and the Ministry owns a fleet of them, showing that there is a use for them.

    Floo travel is also incredibly common and cheap. Almost every magical household is hooked up to the floo network. It seems to be the most common way of traveling with families. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ministry does a lot of its business by being able to look up the floo address of someone and getting around that way.
     
  5. Ninclow

    Ninclow Fourth Year

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    131
    High Score:
    0
    I like how you kind of overlooked that Rowling herself contradicted that interpretation... :p
     
  6. Sauce Bauss

    Sauce Bauss Headmaster DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,077
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Texas
    The United Kingdom is a single nation, and you're equating across oceans and continents with apparating across relatively trivial distances. There's an old joke that goes something like "Americans think a hundred years is a long time, Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way."

    Where I am in Texas to New York City is over 2800 km. That's still within the same country, and those locations aren't even the furthest apart. We see people apparating fairly large distances in canon, with one instance of international apparition with Voldemort.

    In addition, simply being able to visualize the location is sufficient. You mentioned the Snatchers and the Dark Mark as being exceptions, but that doesn't apply to Harry and Hermione going to Godric's Hollow.
     
  7. Ninclow

    Ninclow Fourth Year

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    131
    High Score:
    0
    Or we think we do. How do we know they don't have to apparate several short distances and just appear to have apparated one long?

    Also - Godric's Hallow is a well-known wizarding village. The chances of Hermione not being able to pinpoint the location on a map prior to traveling, and/or read a book detailing the terrain or showing pictures from the place Hermione could use to visualize the place is pretty slim.
     
  8. Zombie

    Zombie John Waynes Teeth Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,488
    Location:
    Within the Garden of Nurgle.
    High Score:
    2,094
    I would think something like that would be mentioned. As it is they're not there and then they are. I would side with one single jump before I would multiple because multiple jumps seems to much like a fanon sentiment. And when they are being taught it's not an expressed limitation implied or otherwise.
     
  9. Sauce Bauss

    Sauce Bauss Headmaster DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,077
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Texas
    Occam's razor is a thing. If they didn't show multiple jumps, it is likely a single jump. We only see sequential jumps once, and that was while trying to escape the Snatchers in DH iirc.
     
  10. Reiku

    Reiku Second Year

    Joined:
    May 30, 2014
    Messages:
    70
    Why would multiple jumps be required to evade the snatchers? In another topic of mine, I think the consensus was that apparition can’t be tracked. So wouldn’t one jump have been enough?
     
  11. Ninclow

    Ninclow Fourth Year

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    131
    High Score:
    0
    The distance which any individual witch or wizard is capable of traveling by means of apparition is restricted to the individual magical talent of that person. We know that for a fact because Rowling told us as much. How exactly is it a "fanon sentiment" to assume not everyone is capable of going the same distance in "one jump"?

    Oh, no, I think you misunderstood me: In the books, when someone appear to have apparated long distances, maybe they have apparated let's say four kilometers, then maybe disapparated and apparated to four more kilometers, etc, until they reached their destination without us knowing about it, causing the illusion that you would be able to apparate vast distances. Apparition is pretty quick, so either way, one would be pretty swift in moving from point A to E even if one had to stop by point B and

    Dedalus Diggle, for example, kept an eye on Harry during his childhood for the Order, but Harry lived in Surrey, and Dedalus lived in Kent. That's about an hour long drive by car, I believe. If he journeyed to Surrey by apparating, how are we to know if he was able to travel that distance in one go or had to apparate and disapparate two or three times to get all the way there?
     
  12. Zombie

    Zombie John Waynes Teeth Prestige DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,488
    Location:
    Within the Garden of Nurgle.
    High Score:
    2,094
    I won't say you're outright wrong, but I won't agree either. Only because its not been proven otherwise. I still favor single long jumps as being possible. I feel like anything else contradicts the nature of the books. Magic is pretty much limitless.

    There is no magical exhaustion. There are no cores. There are wands, there are words, and there is the intent/talent(I suppose) to use them. Why would apparition be anything different?

    Okay, limited by magical talent. Got you. I'm not going to keep debating the same thing over and over. I don't even know what the original point was, because its been muddled. So I'll stick to my earlier statement. It was shown that they jumped in a singular fashion. Multiple jumps is a fanon sentiment. The fact that the wizard making the jump lacks magical talent is an assumption on our part. An imposed limitation we're using to make the story more engaging or some mechanic more interesting when it otherwise wouldn't be.

    I'm not just going to assume there was some off scene action that wasn't covered, because I think it would be relevant at some point. Either because of strategy in a fight, or when, just maybe, they're covering the basics for everyone. It wasn't specified.

    I'm not saying all wizards are capable of jumping across the country. I think that was someone else. They could just appear at will, but I don't think its too far gone to imagine they could apparate to common places that are longer distances apart because of familiarity.

    If the distance is great, and the site is unknown or new to the person making the jump, then I would concede that magical talent comes into play there. That's it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
  13. Ninclow

    Ninclow Fourth Year

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    131
    High Score:
    0
    Of course magic isn't limitless, otherwise there would be no cause for the Department of Mysteries to exist. Or the Committee for Experimental Charms. Magic is simply a form of energy that is inaccessible to Muggles, and as with all energy, it follows certain laws and are certainly not limitless. For specific examples, please check out:

    • Adalbert Waffling's Fundamental Laws of Magic.
    • Gamp's Law of Elemental Transfiguration.
    • The Principle of Artificianimate Quasi-Dominance.

    Because apparition is magic, and people's ability to use it is limited to each individual's personal aptitude for magic.

    In a vast majority of instances - yes. It has. Hermione, Ron and Harry apparated from the Burrow in Devon to London, which is a three hour and nineteen minutes ride, according to google. An impressive distance, but apparating from London to the Scottish Highland is considerably longer.

    It's a logical sentiment. "As with most magic, much depends on the skill of the spell-caster", or, in this case, the traveling witch or wizard.

    Assumption, logic, same difference. :p Seriously, though, I have never even heard of a fanfiction using apparition like I mentioned above with multiple stops. Then again - I have read relatively few.

    "Off-scene action"? Are we still talking apparition?

    Ah, got you. Yes, I agree: The more familiar you are with far-flung destinations, the more vividly you can picture it in your mind and the more likely it is for the witch or wizard to make the trip in one piece even if it's far. What I meant was that I think every individual witch or wizard almost definitively have a "max range" determine how far they can travel "in one jump" determined by their magical talent.
     
  14. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    5,328
    Location:
    Hbg., Germany
    I don't know what you are reading out of that quote, Ninclow. A strict reading of "knowledge of the terrain" doesn't even imply having been there. I can get "knowledge of the terrain" from a map, terrain is an expression that describes the general kind of landscape -- forest, meadow, hilly, flat. What you mean is "location", which she doesn't say. But even if we consider the context, and the "or" is supposed to separate two opposing alternatives -- i.e., "knowledge" as "first-hand knowledge" (of having been there) as opposed to merely "visualising it clearly" -- it is that. An opposing alternative. So either way, what she says, there, is that you don't need to have been where you want to apparate to.

    And that makes a ton of sense, because she knows what she has written, and needs a way to explain it. This is it. When she needs anyone to go somewhere they haven't been to before, they need to visualise it. And if they don't visualise it clearly enough, either nothing happens, or they end up splinched.

    Which is also the case for distance. She does not say it's "impossible", from a magical point of view. You can apparate far, even across the Atlantic. The only problem is that you are very likely not to get it right, and will end up injured or dead. Splinching your head off, or ending up in a dozen parts spread around America sounds like it would do that job.


    Therefore: People can apparate to places they haven't been, as we see in Canon, and the above quote is the explanation how. Distance you can safely cross depends on skill, but we always knew that, because that's a fundamental theme of the HP magic: Many people will never apparate anywhere and prever brooms or whatever, Hogwarts NEWT students of Harry's level by and large appear competent enough to apparate across the country -- e.g. from the south coast to Hogwarts, so up to 700-800 km -- and Voldemort gets even farther, from somewhere deep on the continent to Britain. No contradictions, everything explained, simple and straight-forward.

    Your take, on the other hand, is making an explanation very difficult. Why would you want that?
     
  15. Download

    Download Supreme Mugwump DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2014
    Messages:
    1,637
    Location:
    Adelaide, Australia
    From the other thread because it had strayed into apparation territory:

    You have not proven that is too far a distance. Yes, we know the UK to the US is too far, but that is a distance of 5000km at its shortest. London to the Scottish Highlands is a tenth of that.

    Prove it.

    By apparating? Harry, without his apparation licence, managed to apparate from the South of England to Hogwarts dragging Dumbledore along with him. Harry isn't exactly exceptional at magic.

    Hermione apparated to Godrics Hollow with no evidence she had ever been there before.
     
  16. Ninclow

    Ninclow Fourth Year

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    131
    High Score:
    0
    I don't recall saying you'd have to have been somewhere to apparate to it. As a matter of fact, I am reasonably certain I actually suggested Hermione might have learned of the terrain of Godric's Hallow by a map and/or book.



    I agree.

    What I meant was that I think every individual witch or wizard almost definitively have a "max range" determine how far they can travel "in one jump" without splinching and risking death or injury determined by their magical talent.

    Also... No. Being able picture a place and being able to apparate the necessary distance is not the same thing. That's like saying everyone with a wand can conjure a fully-fledged Patronus because they know the incantation and can think of a happy memory. Which isn't the case, it requires a certain aptitude for defensive magic as well as the principle of "practice makes perfect". Apparition would be no different.

    I don't see what's so difficult by pointing out the given fact that different wizards differ in the degree of magical competence, just like how we in the real world can see some being better at some things than others, and that these differing competences in magic would factor in on how far you can apparate without risking injury. To me, that seems obvious.

    And we can say with 100% that Dumbledore, weakened though he might have been, didn't help him at all?

    And your point would be? I said the Dark Mark/Taboo helping out with pinpointing location meant Death Eaters and Snatchers might not need a detailed knowledge on the terrain of the relevant area due to the magic guiding them to the right place, not that you cannot get knowledge on the terrain without having physically been there previously.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
  17. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    5,328
    Location:
    Hbg., Germany
    Wat.
    @Download just quoted parts of what you said. Your entire theme was that apparition to Hogsmeade for strangers was impossible because A) they wouldn't have been there before, and B) it's too far to get there (coupled with this strange cross-border thing).

    If you agree that people apparate to places only by visualising it, and that people who can apparate can apparate several hundred kilometres easily enough, then what even is your point?

    Edit:
    ...
    You can't possibly not notice what you are doing? That is what I mean with making explanations complicated. You are literally trying to come up with exceptional circumstances for every example we have -- instead of one global explanation that is readily apparent, you explain every instance individually, in order to do ... something. I don't know what. I'm so confused.
     
  18. Ninclow

    Ninclow Fourth Year

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    131
    High Score:
    0
    No - see, now you're just spinning a strawman... I asked what would be the easiest/mist logical route for the Death Eaters to take to Hogsmeade. I mean - they weren't only actual Death Eaters under those masks, also imperiused Ministry personnel like Pius Thicknesse, so obviously - Floo Network. The Ministry controlled the Floo Network, and had dozens and dozens of fireplaces in the Atrium just standing there, ready to be used. I didn't exclude apparition, I simply stated fireplaces would be quicker because it's not given ALL DEs would make the jump in one go, depending on their individual skill at apparition.

    That just because there are people who can apparate hundreds of miles easily enough don't mean all people can apparate the same distance because they're not skilled enough?

    Obviously Dumbledore being Dumbledore, he is capable of apparating farther than almost anyone else. What's odd about that?
     
  19. Sauce Bauss

    Sauce Bauss Headmaster DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,077
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Texas
    Name one, just one, instance of a wizard or witch helping another wizard or witch with a piece of magic that they were in the process of casting. There is zero indication that a hallucinating, incoherent Dumbledore used some kind of heretofore unseen and unexplained piece of magic to help Harry do something he'd already learned.
     
  20. Joe's Nemesis

    Joe's Nemesis High Score: 2,058 Prestige

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,096
    High Score:
    2,058
    Where does distance=skill in canon? The problem isn't distance, it's whether you can visualize the place well enough and then actually do it without splinching. Distance does not play into it in canon unless I'm obviously forgetting something.



    Again, based on what? The rules of travel in JKR's universe are rules based on dramatic telling of a narrative, not on any kind of systematic understanding of travel. Why take a Portkey rather than Apparate? Or, Apparate rather than take a Portkey? Why travel by the Floo Network rather than either of the others? Why is the making of Portkeys illegal except through the ministry? Because it's all based on what is needed in the narrative. Not what makes logical sense. So, there's no reason to think there's any limit to Apparition, and no reason to think Dumbledore can travel any farther than anyone else. All you need is (1) the ability to visualize (2) the skill to actually Apparate without splinching, regardless of distance*

    ____________
    *Unless, again, I'm missing an obvious passage where someone says it's too far to Apparate. But I don't remember anything like that.
     
Loading...