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Naruto- Chakra Laws?

Discussion in 'Other Fandoms Discussion' started by Shezza, May 27, 2013.

  1. mortalone

    mortalone Sixth Year

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    Mokuton is not yang release. Most likely it reacts to yang release because the yang release stimulates growth. If yang release truly is just physical energy then this could be interpreted as providing physical energy to the plant stimulating growth. It's not so much that mixing yin and yang is automatically better, but that what you can do with chakra changes with the composition of yin and yang.

    That particular explanation would explain Naruto having an easier time learning KB than Bunshin. Naruto, who is naturally very yang heavy to begin with, has the yang portion of Kyuubi sealed within him. Bunshin is not yin release, but one expects that it is a very yin oriented technique. Naruto most likely did not have the skill to achieve the correct balance of yin and yang at that time. Kage Bunshin, however, I would expect to be at least 50/50 yin/yang, or perhaps more yang oriented. Yes it splits the consciousness, but there's no interaction between the consciousnesses (really? that's a word?) of the clones. The creation of a physical body seems to be the bigger deal. The result is that Naruto has an easier time learning this much more advanced technique due to it being more up his alley.

    That explanation is so much more satisfying to me than the bullshit fanon "he has too much chakra to do a Bunshin." One of the most annoying cliches out there and it's totally unnecessary. People just want to be able to paint Naruto as being a hidden super talent, which ends up trivializing his struggles.
     
  2. Altered_Nova

    Altered_Nova Muggle

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    I agree with all of that completely. In fact I just posted something similar the other day on TFF, I'll quote it here:

    The part about chakra becoming unstable when it's heavily unbalanced towards either yin or yang was taken from Tayuya's Revolt of the Demon World jutsu, which created spirits composed almost entirely of mental energy that crave physical energy and chase down their targets so they can steal it.

    Which is actually kind of weird... does pure physical energy do the same thing? Are plants hungering for the mind energy of us humans?
     
  3. knight504

    knight504 The Chosen One

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    Sup, Altered.

    That's a nice bit of nightmare fuel but probably not. It was only unstable because the spirit worm had a tiny portion of physical energy in them. Ideally, chakra is a balance between two energies but that jutsu makes it unbalanced to an extreme. Without that physical energy, it would have been stable because it would have been a whole by itself rather than part of a greater whole. That's how I see it.

    Though it should be possible to do the opposite and create chakra that is almost entirely composed of physical energy and seeks out spiritual energy. A way of stealing memories and knowledge or causing mental fatigue?
     
  4. mortalone

    mortalone Sixth Year

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    With Tayuya's jutsu, I suspect that the demons were chasing down physical energy not because yin and yang are drawn to each other violently (meaning that the universe is trying to attain a 50/50 balance of yin and yang in all things -- this is *possible* I suppose as yin and yang try to achieve balance in eastern mythology, but though they are opposing forces, they are not truly in opposition to one another. More appropriately one might say that they are two sides of the same coin. Furthermore, we then have to ask the question: by what mechanism do yin and yang become out of balance? Human manipulation alone should not be it for a number of reasons; divine manipulation becomes a possibility, but we know virtually nothing about the divinities of Naruverse).

    I prefer the idea that they were demons and they wanted to attain physical energy in order to become a part of the real world. It simplifies things and should still be in keeping with asian mythology (not to mention western mythology).
     
  5. KaelMyec

    KaelMyec Second Year

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    I do apologize for the necro but I had a few ideas regarding chakra for a Naruto story that I wanted some input on. Since I did incorporate some of the laws already put forth in this thread and that these ideas are available for anyone to use that it would be better to keep it consolidated here instead of working up a new thread.


    So here are a few things I have outlined regarding Yin/Yang chakra, the three basic shinobi arts and the twelve hand seals.


    Yin Chakra- slow, soft, yielding, diffuse, cold, wet, and passive; and is associated with water, earth, the moon, femininity and nighttime. Yin chakra majority abilities are strongest at midnight and weakest at noon, their strength waxes as the day approaches midnight and wanes as the day approaches noon. This means that chakra cost for yin chakra majority abilities is at its highest at noon and at its least at midnight.

    Example: Suiton Jutsu to fill 10-gallon container. Assuming perfect chakra control and no affinity.
    Midnight: Suiton Jutsu costs 10 chakra units.
    Six AM: Suiton Jutsu costs 15 chakra units.
    Noon: Suiton Jutsu costs 20 chakra units.
    Six PM: Suiton Jutsu costs 15 chakra units.

    Shinobi arts that are primarily Yin Chakra majority: Genjutsu, Suiton Ninjutsu, Doton Ninjutsu

    Yang Chakra- fast, hard, solid, focused, hot, dry, and aggressive; and is associated with fire, wind, lightning, the sun, masculinity and daytime. Yang chakra majority abilities are strongest at noon and weakest at midnight, their strength waxes as the day approaches noon and wanes as the day approaches midnight. This means that chakra cost for yang chakra majority abilities is at its highest at midnight and at its least at noon.

    Example: Futon Jutsu to fill 10 cubic foot container. Assuming perfect chakra control and no affinity.
    Midnight: Futon Jutsu costs 20 chakra units.
    Six AM: Futon Jutsu costs 15 chakra units.
    Noon: Futon Jutsu costs 10 chakra units.
    Six PM: Futon Jutsu costs 15 chakra units.

    Shinobi arts that are primarily Yang Chakra majority: Taijutsu, Katon Ninjutsu, Futon Ninjutsu, Raiton Ninjutsu

    Taijutsu- One of the three primary Shinobi arts; physical hand-to-hand combat not involving the use of a weapon. Very little to no chakra cost to use Taijutsu, however Taijutsu techniques that effect the environment more than what Shinobi could naturally effect do use Yang Chakra. This means techniques like Gai’s Morning Peacock, the Hyuuga Gentle Fist, Chen’s Leaf Dragon God, Lee’s One-Man Front Lotus.


    The Eight Celestial Gates when opened give a exponential increase in Yang Chakra for each gate opened, this increase in Yang chakra gives temporary increases in physical related abilities such as speed, strength, and healing, training can increase the amount of time user is able to keep gates open. Once user reaches their limit and the gates close they are severely weakened physically almost to the point of infirmity, as they have almost no yang chakra remaining in their system until it regenerates the more gates opened and the longer the duration of the open gates the longer the recovery time. Recovery time can be shortened with infusion of Yang chakra from Medical Ninjutsu.


    Ninjutsu- One of the three primary Shinobi arts; Techniques that require use of hand seals and chakra to execute effects that have a corporeal impact on the world. Ninjutsu is a diverse field encompassing both Yin and Yang majority technique types. Ninjutsu use a ratio of Yin and Yang chakra for each Jutsu. Techniques that do not use one of the five elements or a bloodline are known as Ninpo techniques.


    Based on the ratio between Yin and Yang chakra is what classifies a technique as Yin or Yang majority, techniques can also be Yin/Yang neutral which means both types of chakra are used equally. Examples of Ninpo Ninjutsu are the Henge, Kawarimi, Shunshin, and Kanashibari. Elemental Ninjutsu are techniques that use one of the five primary elements to execute their effect. Depending on the Element the technique will either be Yin Chakra Majority or Yang Chakra Majority; No elemental technique is Yin/Yang Neutral.


    Yin Chakra Majority elements are Suiton and Doton. Yang Chakra majority elements are Katon, Raiton, and Futon. Medical Ninjutsu are primarily Yang Chakra Majority techniques since they deal in the physical healing of Shinobi, however Medical Shinobi must be able to control the ratio of their own Yin/Yang chakra to match the patients or the Medical Ninjutsu will not be able to effect the patient.


    Genjutsu- One of the three primary Shinobi arts; Techniques that require the use of hand seals and chakra to execute effects that have an incorporeal impact on the world. Genjutsu techniques use Yin chakra, Genjutsu techniques are diverse, and those that do not require a bloodline or are part of a sequential illusion set are known as Ninpo techniques. Examples of Ninpo Genjutsu are the Bunshin, Bringer of Darkness, and Sly Mind Affect.


    There are sequential illusion sets in Genjutsu that offer a wide range of illusions but the ability to execute one is built on mastering the previous one in the sequence. It is not necessary to use an earlier illusion in the sequence to use a later one but they must be mastered before later illusions in the sequence can be learned. Example of Sequential Genjutsu: Demonic Illusions.


    Example of learning and use of sequential Genjutsu:
    Demonic Illusion: False Surroundings Technique- First in the False Surrounding sequence. User learns how to cast a Genjutsu that makes the target think they are somewhere they are not. Can affect individuals or an area.
    Demonic Illusion: Double False Surroundings Technique- Second in the False Surrounding sequence. User leans how to layer a second illusion on top of the first so target is still under Genjutsu should the break the first layer. User must know principles from earlier techniques in sequence to use. Can affect individuals or an area.


    Hand seals:

    • Bird (Tori)- independent, practical, hard working, and observant. Seal for the Raiton Element. Necessary in Raiton Ninjutsu unless user has mastered the Raiton element chakra training.

    • Boar (I)- loving, tolerant, honest. The Boar seal allows for saturation in a technique allowing the user to encompass a large area with the technique. Primarily used in Ninjutsu that affect a large area as well as Genjutsu that effect a large area.

    • Dog (Inu)- patient, diligent, generous, faithful, and kind. The Dog seal allows for protection in a technique to prevent it from harming the user. Used primarily in Ninjutsu that affect a large area or in Barrier Ninjutsu.

    • Dragon (Tatsu)- energetic, fearless, warm-hearted, and charismatic. Seal for the Suiton Element. Necessary in Suiton Ninjutsu unless user has completed the Suiton element chakra training.

    • Ox (Ushi)- patient, kind, stubborn, and conservative. The Ox seal allows for stability in a technique. Used primarily in Ninjutsu and Genjutsu to ensure that the technique remains cohesive once cast.

    • Tiger (Tora)- authoritative, emotional, courageous, and intense. Seal for the Katon Element. Necessary in Katon Ninjutsu unless user has mastered the Katon element chakra training.

    • Snake (Mi)- charming, gregarious, introverted, generous, and smart. Seal for the Doton Element. Necessary in Doton Ninjutsu unless user has completed the Doton element chakra training.

    • Rat (Ne)- quick-witted, smart, charming, and persuasive. The Rat seal allows for projection of chakra. Used primarily in Genjutsu.

    • Horse (Uma)- energetic, independent, impatient. The Horse seal allows for speed in a technique, allowing the user to control the speed of their technique. Used primarily in Ninjutsu.

    • Monkey (Saru)- fun, energetic, and active. The Monkey seal allows for focus allowing the user to focus their chakra on a target. Used primarily in Single target Ninjutsu and Single target Genjutsu.

    • Hare (U)- popular, compassionate, and sincere. Seal for the Futon Element. Necessary in Futon Ninjutsu unless the user has mastered the Futon element chakra training.

    • Ram (Hitsuji)- mild-mannered, shy, kind, and peace-loving. The Ram seal allows for balance in a technique between chakra natures. Used primarily in Ninjutsu to balance Yin and Yang requirements.


    I am trying to come up with reasonable rules governing the types of abilities that are present in the Naruto universe so that there are explanations of things instead of just using chakra to handwave things away. I will also be using the rules that are previously mentioned in this thread to help govern my story world. Any thoughts on what I have posted or any glaring issues that may be there would be appreciated.
     
  6. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Looks pretty solid as far as scientific approaches to chakra go. I tend more towards the 'it's magic, deal with it' side of things as far as world building goes, but this looks like you could build a decent system from it.

    Either way, do yourself a favour and don't fall too much in love with the rules you've set up. The story is more important, so if you find yourself thinking up a brilliant scene that just wouldn't work with your current system, change it so that the scene works rather than the other way around.
     
  7. knight504

    knight504 The Chosen One

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    I stumbled on this old thread and found myself thinking about "Chakra Laws" again now I've got an extra four years of fanfiction and random arguments on the internet under my belt. I've tried to keep the following in the spirit of the original post rather than the rambling theories this turned into, though there's probably some overlap with other posts here.

    Enjoy, I guess?

    Rule 1: All living, sentient creatures possess chakra.

    Every human and every animal in the world has chakra flowing through their bodies. Plants do not have chakra, only physical energy of a different type to living beings.

    Rule 2: Ninjas can train to increase their total chakra capacity.

    They can increase their physical energy by training their bodies with running, climbing, swimming, sparring and other athletic exercises. They can increase their spiritual energy by training their minds with reading, learning, strategizing, meditating and other intellectual exercises. Practising jutsu and training with chakra can have the effect of increasing both types of energy.

    The more of these energies an individual has then the greater their stamina and the more chakra they can create.

    Rule 3: The size of a person's chakra capacity has no relation to their chakra control.

    Someone with a huge chakra capacity can have excellent control and someone with a small chakra capacity can have terrible control. Control is determined by the individual's focus, talent and skill rather than how much stamina they have.

    Rule 4: Emotions affect the creation and control of chakra.

    A relaxed mind and well rested body is the ideal state to be in for using chakra whereas stress and fatigue can make their control erratic and difficult to maintain. Powerful emotions can help a ninja generate chakra beyond their usual limit but this is a situational aid rather something that can be relied on consistenly.

    Rule 5: Chakra raises the peak of a human's physical ability.

    An physically fit adult who has learned to fight has enough chakra flowing through them to be capable of feats that we would call superhuman. But as a ninja learns to create and wield chakra from childhood, it is naturally greater in size and potency which allows them match the feats of grown adults even as children. Later learning to consciously wielding chakra to enhance their body takes this to even greater extremes.

    Rule 6: The more athletic the ninja then the greater the effects of chakra enhancement.

    The stronger the muscles and organs of an individual, the more chakra can be consciously channeled into their body parts as they are better able to withstand its presence and the force it exerts. Taijutsu specialists benefit from this most of all given the better developed bodies.

    Rule 7: The more chakra applied to a jutsu then the more difficult it is to control.

    Adding more chakra than needed into a jutsu can make it more powerful but it also becomes more difficult to control. That extra power can be wasted if the jutsu collapses before reaching its target or misses them entirely, using up the caster's chakra for no real gain.

    Rule 8: Everyone's chakra has a colour unique to them.

    When seen by the naked eye, human chakra always looks blue when not transformed by jutsu. But in truth the colour of chakra is unique to everyone just like fingerprints which only the person themselves can sense. Only someone with a doujutsu can see the actual colour of an individual's chakra.

    Rule 9: Ninja usually have the same chakra levels as everyone else.

    When not actively converting stamina into chakra, the only chakra a ninja has is what normally flows through their chakra pathways which isn't significantly different from a ordinary person's. It is only when they start to build up their chakra - usually in preparation for battle or in the middle of one - that it's possible to tell how great their chakra capacity might be.

    Rule 10: Balancing the physical and spiritual energy makes chakra more powerful and stable.

    If a ninja creates chakra using more of one type of energy than the other then the harder it is to control and the less effective it is when casting jutsu. If this imbalance is extreme, using only a marginal amount of one type of energy, then the chakra will seek to restore that balance by feeding off any living thing it interacts with.

    Rule 11: Everyone can sense chakra.

    Most people can only passively sense chakra within their immediately surroundings. They can't sense it from any further away unless it has been built up in large quantities. Only a small number of people can actively sense it from a distance by switching their own chakra to sensory mode, allowing them to detect people through their chakra signatures.

    Rule 12: Hand-seals are used to automatically transform chakra.

    They apply shape and nature transformation to the caster's chakra without their conscious control. Typically, the more complex and powerful the jutsu then the more hand-seals are required to create it.

    Using hand-seals with one hand is an uncommon and difficult skill, essentially requiring one to relearn each of their jutsu to perform it one-handed.

    Rule 13: Few people can convert chakra back into stamina.

    If a ninja has chakra leftover after casting a jutsu, it steadily leaks out of their body into atmosphere. It takes a lot of skill to break chakra down back into physical and spiritual energy to restore their stamina, so ninja train to avoid using more chakra than necessary in the first place.

    Rule 14: Some people have the ability to absorb chakra.

    There is a rare inborn ability that allows certain people to reverse the direction of their chakra flow to draw out of someone's body through physical contact, absorb it into their own body and convert it into physical and spiritual energy. Ordinary people need to use specialized jutsu or tools to accomplish the same effect.

    Rule 15: There are seven nature transformations - Fire, Wind, Earth, Lightning, Water, Yin and Yang.

    The primary five nature transformations are chakra that has been transformed to grant it different properties.

    On the other hand, yin chakra is made from three parts spiritual energy and one part physical energy, and yang chakra is made from three parts physical energy and one part spiritual energy.

    Rule 16: Everyone has an affinity for one of the five main chakra natures.

    The chakra nature that a shinobi has an affinity for is the one that they are the quickest to learn and best at casting. Everyone has one - and only one - affinity.

    Even those with kekkei genkai which combine chakra natures innately favour one over the other, though this makes little practical difference.

    Rule 17: Ninja can learn any elemental ninjutsu.

    Regardless of affinity, a ninja can learn ninjutsu and nature transformation for any element.

    E-rank to C-rank elemental jutsu don't require any additional training and can be learned just by learning the hand-seals and practicing. But B-rank and above requires the ninja to learn nature transformation to successfully perform them.

    Rule 18: Chakra natures don't work the same as the actual elements.

    Elements created through jutsu work similarly to the natural element but can't match their exact properties. For example, lightning chakra is not as fast or as damaging as actual lightning.

    Rule 19: Hiden ninjutsu can be learned by anyone.

    These jutsu aren't no different from any other jutsu except the knowledge of how they work is kept secret by individuals or families. Anyone could practice these jutsu if they were taught how and fulfilled any prerequisites such as learning yin or yang nature transformation.

    Rule 20: Medical Ninjutsu uses yang chakra to heal the body.

    Yang chakra is able to directly manipulate the cells of the body to control biological functions, allowing them to repair injuries and stimulate the natural healing process.

    Rule 21: Almost all space-time ninjutsu require jutsu formula.

    Jutsu formula provide the spatial coordinates to allow objects or people to be successfully transported through space and time. Without them, it's impossible to move into a subspace and back at the desired location.

    Only space-time ninjutsu acquired through kekkei genkai and even more powerful abilities can work without them.
     
  8. Arthellion

    Arthellion Groundskeeper

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    Sharingan Rules

    Rule 1:
    At the first tomoe, the user gains eidetic memory and enhance reflexes.

    Rule 2: At this level, users reflexes increase, can copy Taijutsu. See through mid level genjutsu

    Rule 3:
    The third tomoe enables copying of jutsu and casting genjutsu with eyes. The sharingan can copy and impart the knowledge of how to perform any non bloodline jutsu to the user. This is limited by the users own skill. An Uchiha who never uses water jutsu can copy a water jutsu, but his lack of familiarity with the element or perhaps controlrequired may prevent him from dorming the technique. It's why kakashi is so BA. He has the familiarity and control to copy/use almost all ninjutsu he sees.

    I'm not messing with the MS
     
  9. cooladoola

    cooladoola Second Year

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    knight504 I am not sure if you are just theorizing or talking about canon. If it's the former, then you can ignore the corrections in the spoiler.

    A few corrections:

    Rule 2: Not really. Chakra increases naturally with age. However, it doesn't increase a lot for a lot of ninjas. The differences vary.

    Rule 3: It absolutely does. Kakashi mentioned it quite explicitly in Part I. Larger reserves require greater talent.

    Rule 4: There is no chakra generation beyond anyone's usual limits. They simply draw out more during such instances.

    Rule 6 Erm, what?

    Rule 7: It depends.

    Rule 9: Not at all.

    Rule 10: Merging Physical and Spiritual energies creates chakra to begin with. Moulding it properly is a facet of chakra control. It doesn't make that chakra more powerful.

    Rule 11: That has only been exhibited by talented people, I'm afraid.

    Rule 12: No. A whole process of training is involved before it. Ninjas who have advanced chakra control bypass the handseals a lot of times. This is only true for very poor Jutsus that require little to no talent to learn.

    Rule 13: No ninja has exhibited this ability.

    Rule 15: Inton and Yoton deal with imagination and life. The former creates form out of nothing and the latter breathes life into things. For instance, Susanoo is Inton and Mokuton is Yoton. That's it.

    Rule 21: I don't even understand this point.
    Arthellion

    The Sharingan is just an eye. It doesn't increase anyone's reflexes. It increases perception and precognition ability, allowing a window to the Sharingan user to use their reflexes effectively.

    The Sharingan can see through all Genjutsu at any level. Furthermore, Kakashi has displayed no BA level control over any Jutsu he copied bar really basic ones. In fact, there is no proof that he was ever able to master any advanced copied Jutsus.

    Mangekyou Sharingan:

    It can allow the use of Inton abilities:

    Amaterasu.
    High tier Genjutsu.
    Double MS can unlock Susanoo, albeit it's a rarity.

    Amaterasu and Susanoo are rare amongst Uchihas. The latter is even rarer. Genjutsu enhancement (though, not in all cases) is a guarantee.

    Some Uchiha can have abilities unique to their MS such as Kagutsuchi, Kamui, Tsukuyomi, and Kotoamatsukami etc.

    Delayed MS Jutsus can be planted into another Sharingan for another time.

    MS has the tendency to seal itself through usage, ultimately causing blindness to the wearer.

    MS pairs of close family members can be used to create Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan. Its creation is a bit problematic, though, as the manga doesn't offer a concrete explanation of its actual creation process. I will add more on EMS later.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  10. The Pro

    The Pro Seventh Year

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    What makes you think that Amaterasu is a rarity among Uchiha? There is nothing canonically to indicate what exactly constitutes common traits of the Mangekyō Sharingan, besides what you've outlined (the abilities of the Sharingan at a higher level, etc).

    Canonically, Obito could use short range Kamui and long range Kamui. Itachi could create Amaterasu and cast Tsukuyomi. Sasuke could create Amaterasu and manipulate Amaterasu (Enton: Kagutsuchi). Shisui could use Kotoamatsukami. All other users of the Mangekyō Sharingan were anime-only, or their unique abilities weren't shown.

    All we know is that the Mangekyō Sharingan:
    1. grants abilities that differ from user to user (these abilities may not be the same for each eye; see Obito, Itachi and Sasuke)
    2. inevitably causes blindness (due to overusage)
    3. drains massive amounts of chakra and strains the user's body
    4. allows the user to read and decode the Stone Tablet in the Naka Shrine

    Anything else you've already covered.

    As for Susanoo, it can only be awakened once the user has achieved the Mangekyō Sharingan in both eyes, or has activated the abilities of both Mangekyō Sharingan eyes. That's why it's a rarity.

    I can't believe I actually omitted my responses to your post, knight504. Like cooladoola above,
    I'm not really sure if you're using canonical information or just theorizing. Feel free to ignore me if it's the latter though.

    No problem there.

    The more chakra they can create? Nada. There's not enough information provided canonically to say much about the creation of chakra. One's chakra reservoirs don't correlate to the amount of chakra one can create, at least not based on canon. This is just an assumption.

    It does. The larger the chakra capacity, the harder it is to control it. The smaller the chakra capacity, the easier it is to control it. Kakashi said it.

    Emotions affect chakra control, yes. Emotions don't affect chakra creation. Emotions cannot enhance the amount of chakra one creates. Think of it this way. Ninja A involuntarily draws out more chakra than he may have intended due to rage, simply because his control has been screwed by aforementioned rage.

    Makes sense.

    Say what? No. The effects of chakra enhancement depend on the amount of chakra channeled. Case in point: Tsunade. She's a relatively athletic kunoichi. Compare A, Yondaime Raikage. He enhances himself with chakra. Tsuande is far stronger because of the precision of her control, not the durability/development of her muscles. Same goes for Gai. Tsunade would beat his ass in a contest of strength because of the precision of her control, not physique.

    Not necessarily true. It all depends on the precision of one's chakra control.

    Meh. Not enough information has been given canonically to confirm this. Besides, to counteract this, in Naruto: The Last we plainly saw that Naruto's chakra is orange. In the anime, his chakra is blue, even when he uses the Rasengan. Is this anomaly intentional? No-one knows for sure.

    No. The amount of chakra flowing through one's coils is dependent on the amount of chakra in one's reservoirs. Are you really saying that Naruto has the same amount of chakra as a civilian when he's not actively channeling chakra? No.

    This makes no sense. Balancing yin and yang chakra does not affect power. Hell, the balance of yin and yang is what creates chakra in the first place. Balancing these two energies doesn't make chakra more potent.

    No. Only sensors can detect chakra. I've never seen anyone else do it canonically.

    Chakra control is what is used to perform jutsu, which necessitated the need for hand seals. Advanced chakra control can negate the need for hand seals entirely. See Tsunade and Itachi Uchiha.

    We've never seen any ninja converting chakra to stamina. We don't even know that it's possible.

    True.

    No. Yin is simply spiritual energy that governs imagination. Yang is physical energy that governs vitality. They are not mixtures of each other.

    Affinity to one element? No. People with elemental kekkei genkai (like Haku, Gaara, Mei, etc) create these kekkei genkai by combining multiple elements. Haku had affinities for Futon and Suiton, using these to create Hyoton. Mei had affinities for Futon, Suiton and Katon. Hiruzen Sarutobi had all five affinities. Hagoromo had all five affinities. Where'd you get this one affinity thing from?

    Uh. You're gonna give me an aneurysm. This is a big no. Asuma couldn't learn the Chidori because he lacks a Raiton affinity. Same goes for Haku. Some jutsu are inherently tied to the affinity and cannot be learned unless one possesses the requisite affinity. Elemental kekkei genkai even more so.

    I can live with that.

    True that.

    This makes sense. But, there's nothing canonically to suggest specifically that is uses Yang. Yamato said it's either Yin or Yang.

    Okay, what the actual fuck? Sorry but I'm speechless. Jutsu formula? Spatial coordinates? What? You're reading too much into the situation. There's nothing to suggest this canonically. How does sealing work then?
    How does any other non-kekkei genkai space-time ninjutsu work?
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2017
  11. knight504

    knight504 The Chosen One

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    I'll quickly mention that yes, there's a decent amount of theorizing going on here.

    Nevertheless, I will happily debate some of these laws with you fine gentlemen once I've got the time for a proper reply later on. :sherlock:
     
  12. The Pro

    The Pro Seventh Year

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    Your post makes so much more sense now. Well, bring on the debate any time you're ready. :)
     
  13. cooladoola

    cooladoola Second Year

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    I believe it is safe to theorize that Amaterasu is a bit rare. Not as rare as Susanoo, but rare regardless as Shisui, Madara, Obito and Izuna (all Mangekyou users) never possessed it. So, two people out of six (the Uchiha with MS) had Amaterasu, when three out of six had Susanoo. The odds are rarer for Amaterasu.

    Not really, no. MS would be activated in both of the eyes. It has never happened in the manga that one eye activates, for instance, two tomoes and the other three. A certain amount of chakra is released into the brain and it enhances the Sharingan. That is all we know.

    So, Susanoo, despite quite a few Uchiha possessing MS, was rare. In fact, Obito outright states so that it's rare. Furthermore, Kakashi pulled out a PS because Obito's Chakra had been enhanced by Sage's Senjutsu. Otherwise, he couldn't on his own. Kakashi, kinda says it.

    I wouldn't call it overuse, it's mainly due to the eye 'sealing' itself. The manga has never made it clear as to what was the reason behind the sealing. This sealing also put an immense pressure on the body. Susanoo accelerated the blindness, which is odd as later in the manga we learn that it can be used blind. Go figure.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
  14. knight504

    knight504 The Chosen One

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    Wow, that took so much longer than I thought it would. Gonna go switch my brain off. OTL

    I very much doubt that it isn't increased through training as well just growing up. I'd expect someone who spent their life as a ninja to have significantly more chakra than they would have had if they had grown up as a civilian with a desk job for instance.

    He does not. He states that Naruto and Sasuke have that much more chakra than Sakura but nothing about it being the reason their control is worse than hers.

    Hmm, that's more or less what I meant. I may have phrased it poorly.

    To short, the better training your body then the more chakra you can flow into your body parts. And the more chakra you can channel into the body parts then the more strength/speed they can produce.

    Pretty much made that up, btw.

    Bear in mind that I'm not talking about their total chakra capacity. Only the amount of chakra flowing through people most of the time which is only small fraction of the total capacity. Ninja don't walk around filled to the brim with their own chakra, they only start creating it when they actually need it.

    That's what I mean, actually. I'm not suggesting this as a secret chakra technique, just highlighting it because I don't think it's something people pay much attention to.

    True though I think that's more circumstantial than anything.

    ...Gotta be honest, I'm not sure in what way you're disagreeing with me here?

    Yup. Totally made that up.

    Are you disagreeing with me or just expanding on what I wrote? To clarify mention of Yin and Yang here was just to explain how you create those two types of chakra since it was never explained in canon.

    That said, no-one has ever referred to Susanoo as Yin Release or Wood Release as Yang Release so I'm not sure where you got that from.

    Then I have failed. OTL

    It was just meant to be a short explanation on how standard space-time ninjutsu like the Summoning Jutsu work since we got very little on it in the series.
    I disagree. Kakashi only said that Naruto and Sasuke have more chakra than Sakura, not that it's the reason their control is worse than hers.

    That's one way to see it.

    I was tempted to mention Tsunade but didn't want to bog down the explanations. As you said, the more chakra channeled into the body means the greater the enhancement. The idea here was that the better trained the body then the more chakra can be chanelled into it in the first place.

    Tsunade (and Sakura) would be something of an exception who uses her expertise in medical ninjutsu and chakra control to bypass that for a level of strength that emasculates the rest of the ninja population.

    Don't take this one seriously anyway. We're actually told that Naruto's chakra is yellow in canon but everyone's just so used to thinking of it as blue. This rule was just my way of making the contradiction together.

    Not the same but not massively different either. Whatever is flowing through their chakra system most of time is only ever a small fraction of their total capacity, not even enough to fuel a jutsu, as they need to constantly create chakra to use in batle. The idea of ninja are walking beacons of chakra of varying sizes all the time is more fanon than anything.

    Not that Jinchuuriki are the best examples.

    Poorly phrased on my part, I can see.

    This wasn't meant as some special skill to make super chakra but a really basic part of using chakra. I liked the idea that students and rookie ninja usually favour one energy over the other to create chakra which results in an inferior 'product'. As they get more used to manipulating chakra and using jutsu, they naturally reach the point where they balance them quite easily.

    There's several examples but Sasuke, Suigetsu and Juugo sensing Naruto is the clearest one.

    Yeah, I totally made that up.

    Yin and Yang are based on spiritual and physical energy, not exclusively made of them.

    Otherwise they wouldn't be chakra at all and things such as Nara's Shadow Imitation Jutsu would only use spiritual energy or the Akimichi's Multi-size Jutsu would only use physical energy (which are confirmed to be Yin Release and Yang Release, respectively) somehow.

    Since we aren't actually told how to create Yin and Yang chakra, my belief is that they must be made from chakra that deliberately favours spiritual energy over physical energy and vice versa.

    An affinity is simply the chakra nature that someone can tap into most easily and the one that is displayed by chanelling chakra into special chakra paper.

    Those with elemental kekkei genkai are able to instinctively transform their chakra into two chakra natures but that doesn't necessarily mean they have two affinities (or more). Mei might soak her chakra paper rather than burn or crumble because her chakra favours water over fire and earth. It's no big deal.

    Sarutobi Hiruzen is never said to have all five affinities. Anyone with the Rinnegan is able to master all of the nature transformations in record breaking time but, again, it doesn't mean that they don't innately favour one element over the others.

    The part of about the kekkei genkai is just my opinion though. It's quite possible that they share an affinity for both or all three elements, I couldn't say for certain. ;)

    Nope. While people have one chakra nature they tap into most easily - ignoring kekkei genkai since I've covered that above - they can learn how to use other chakra natures if they wish. We're told that most jounin know at least two chakra natures and we're shown examples of various ninja with multiple chakra natures in the fourth databook.

    Yeah, this one's just my headcanon. I'm dead certain that medical ninjutsu is Yang Release but it's never been confirmed. :facepalm

    This was me expanding on the little we're told about space-time ninjutsu: "High-level ninjutsu that surpasses the concept of space and distance. It allows one to move into a subspace and appear at a specific destination with a jutsu formula." - Third Databook

    In other words, standard space-time ninjutsu use a bunch of scribbles known as jutsu formula to make sure whoever's travelling through space and time lands in the right place. The Summoning Jutsu creates one everytime someone is summoned and Minato keeps them on his kunai for his Flying Thunder God Jutsu when he doesn't just create them on the spot.
     
  15. The Pro

    The Pro Seventh Year

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    knight504
    Right. Let me rephrase. Kakashi insinuated that that's the reason for their bad control by comparison to Sakura. Why else would the thought cross his mind if not for the reason I'd outlined before?

    And where in canon does anything correspond with your theory?

    Okay, so nada. Sasuke, Suigetsu and Juugo only sensed Naruto's chakra because he was using such a vast amount. It was felt several countries away because of the amount he was using at that point, not due to any skill on the part of Sasuke and company. The fact remains that only specialized ninja (sensor nin) can sense chakra. Even Orochimaru's thoughts are:
    They all perceive the chakra... Even though none of them are sensory types.

    Note the word choice too: perceive, not sense. There is a vast difference in this context, not just semantics.

    Like I said, there is literally nothing canonically that indicates Yin and Yang are mixtures of physical and spiritual energies in different quantities.

    Yin Release is based on spiritual energy that governs imagination, used to create form from nothing. There is nothing in canon that mentions physical energy.

    Same for Yang Release. Yang Release is based on physical energy that governs vitality, that breathes life into form. There is nothing in canon that mentions spiritual energy. That's why Naruto's chakra while he was in Kyubi Chakra Mode made Yamato's wood constructs flourish. It was the Yang half of Kyubi's chakra that made life flourish (since Minato split the chakra into its two halves anyways).

    Same goes for the Nara and Akimichi's jutsu. Yin is used to manipulate shadows (what with governing imagination and creating form from nothingness) and Yang is used to mainpulate their bodies (what with governing vitality and all).

    Maybe I should've specified. But still, that's incorrect. It's chakra that's a mixture of the two. Either way, we're both just theorizing since we aren't definitively told anything.

    Right. Ignore the stuff about affinities I said. Confused affinity with nature transformation in a spectacular moment of idiocy. Never mind me. :eek:

    Literally never read this Databook. Only got through first and second, which is why I did not know that this tidbit of information exists. Still though, what defines jutsu formula? How does one create jutsu formula? Are jutsu formula intrinsically tied to specific jutsu? I can understand their purpose, sure. But still, this just raises a helluva lot of questions rather than explain everything.

    cooladoola
    Okay, theorize. Makes more sense now. Here's a theory: Itachi and Sasuke share close blood relations, so could that correlate to them having similar Mangekyō Sharingan abilities?

    Wasn't pulling the part about Mangekyō Sharingan in both eyes out of my ass. Check the Fourth Databook as well. I finally got around to reading Third and Fourth, though I've mostly skimmed to relevant parts.

    Blindess due to overuse. Though I should've specified that it would accelerate the process. My bad. :eek:

    Yeah, totally agree with the spirit though. There are some contradictions and plain ridiculous things in Naruto.
     
  16. knight504

    knight504 The Chosen One

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    The Pro
    I don't believe he was insinuating that at all. He was just acknowledging that Naruto and Sasuke had their own gifts which he intended them to realise with this training.

    Sadly nowhere. On the flipside, I haven't yet found anything definite to contradict it either though I have searched. :sherlock:

    The entire point of the law is that most people can feel/perceive/sense chakra specifically when it's right next to them, particularly powerful or in large quantities e.g. Kakashi and Zabuza feeling the Nine-Tails' chakra, Sasuke being aware of Lee's chakra, and Kakashi feeling the clash of chakra between Naruto and Sasuke (as well as my first example).

    Your issue seems to be that I used the word "sense" to refer to the general ability to feel chakra in some way rather than exclusively for what actual sensors do?

    Chakra itself is a mixture of physical and spiritual energy and Yin/Yang are types of chakra. The presence of both energies in each chakra type is a given otherwise they wouldn't actually be chakra anymore when we know that they're considered special chakra as Shikamaru called it.

    My personal explanation could easily be wrong but I genuinely don't get where you're coming from here, bro.

    Hell if I know. Sealing formula and jutsu formula seem like the murkiest parts of chakra mechanics.
     
  17. Menace

    Menace Minister of Magic

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    Yin and Yang are the energies the correspond to the spiritual and the physical. Techniques like the shadow binding, body enhancement, etc. are all technically Yin-Yang techniques, though we saw most of the good shit in the Fourth Great War with Naruto performing messianic miracles and Kaguya's bitch boys negating traditional ninjutsu with their balls.

    There's obviously a difference between Yin-Yang techniques and ninjutsu, but it's not clear whether Yin-Yang techniques are just the ultimate form of chakra manipulation or if they're proto-ninjutsu. The fact that they're called Yin-Yang techniques in the first place makes me think they're a result of using Yin and Yang energies in tandem without mixing them to form chakra.

    There's also the fact that Yin and/or Yang is always referred to as "energy", "power", etc. and not "chakra". The Sage gave Naruto and Sasuke his children's Yin and Yang power. That one you can take with a grain of salt, though. Could be a translation thing, could be semantics.
     
  18. The Pro

    The Pro Seventh Year

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    knight504
    That's the right of it. Just semantics.

    Menace has the right of it here:
    They're never once referred to as chakra in canon, and note I specifically said release when I referred to them. Should probably have made that clear.

    Glad I'm not the only one who sees it. Some things in canon are just incredibly ill-thought out or some spur-of-the-moment bullshit. This is one of the finest examples.
     
  19. knight504

    knight504 The Chosen One

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    Point on them never actually being called "Yin chakra" or "Yang chakra" from what I could see - ignoring the Nine-Tails - though they're referred to as nature transformations/changes in chakra nature at least three times.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I guess my hang up here it that it sounds like you guys are saying that Yin Release and Yang Release are performed just by using spiritual energy or physical energy. Yet we know that Shikamaru uses special chakra to move his shadow, Chouji's size increasing jutsu require a lot of chakra and medical ninjutsu generally emphasizes the use of chakra.
     
  20. The Pro

    The Pro Seventh Year

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    Got it in one.