Discussion in 'Little Italy' started by Newcomb, Jun 2, 2017.
Ah, I'm sorry. I should have been clearer that this was a joke.
...uh. People ACTUALLY do that?
13:5 is pretty heavily scumsided, and it was fairly vanilla heavy overall. Limited town info roles, weaker overall protectives, etc.
Scum roles are frankly irrelevant, the rolecops were there just to let them be more effective at avoiding shooting vanillas.
---------- Post automerged 06-30-2017 at 12:01 AM ---------- Previous post was 06-29-2017 at 11:48 PM ----------
Not a ton on DLP, but it's definitely a thing that happens on sites. People don't have a good lynch and 'idk maybe it's x, they're a good wolf and I've been burned by them before so let's kill them just in case'.
It's...obviously really miserable to have to handle as a player.
Want to say thanks to dC, Stanari, and Pie for giving DLP a shot; hope to see you all again.
Town I think overall played pretty well. Some complacency after the middle game chainlynching like 3 wolves was a bit of a killer, but that's almost inevitable. Some unfortunate timing insofar as people becoming less clear / more suspicious just as their reads got better, and vice versa was also a thing.
Fable played exceptionally well and handled his team imploding around him with about as much grace as I think anyone could reasonably expect of someone in his shoes.
I think a bit too much focus was put into reads of the "if X is a wolf, then Y event from earlier in the game is super unlikely." Looking at old VCs, looking at potential bus targets, all that kind of thing. Those kinds of reads can be a good starting point and can definitely help with worldbuilding but when it's down to the wire, IMO pure behavior is a much more reliable foundation.
Hindsight being 20/20 and all that, that's a pretty easy thing for me to say. I don't think I'd have fared particularly well in this game as town myself, tbh.
On the setup:
As Eido said, this setup was designed to be intentionally biased towards mafia in a neutral setting. We felt that DLP has gotten to a point, both skill-wise and ease of meta clears/condemns with certain players-wise, that the mafia side in general needs more of an edge, as giving town room to make a moderate amount of mistakes here has often led to wolves just flat running out of viable mislynches.
The game was designed around Jan's role, and I'll take a little bit of the heat for that. Having one role be that powerful introduced an element of swing to the setup. We put in the Babysitter, Bodyguard, and gave wolves an Even-Night RB + backup instead of a Full RB to ensure that the only thing that could stop the Neighborizing Scientist from going off was it getting ganked N1... which in retrospect was like, basically an engraved invitation for that very thing to happen <_<
If I got a do-over, I'd have given that role a N1-only vest. Weak Bulletproof Neighboring Scientist. Not the most elegant solution - might as well just put it in the role PM "HI WE REALLY DON'T WANT YOU TO DIE WITHOUT USING THIS," but.
Babysitter is one of my favorite roles ever; it's a skill-intensive role that forces you to really be able to accurately assess your thread position. I think Kai played it pretty optimally in terms of what he was trying to do with it, just happened to miss on the actual targets. Taking Miner down with him instead of fonti prooooobably should have happened but, hindsight.
On the importance of having a good co-mod:
A very special, very heartfelt thanks to Vira. I knew I was going to be busy with the jury for the MU champs series as well as getting a new puppy, but I really had no idea. If Vira hadn't stepped up, you'd have gotten like, a half-assed VC every 24 hours or so, and no flavor. Vira went above and beyond the call and really put a ton of effort into making the flavor good and the VCs tick along smoothly.
10/10, would recommenced.
That's a wrap, folks. Hope you all had fun, and we'll see you next time.
Fable, you were a delight and you have my utmost respect for your handling of this game. I'd initially written you off as a prospect to build some town credit for, but you are by far the better player. Very good work on bringing in the win.
Vira, thank you for all of the work you put into the flavor and votals.
Everyone else: So long, and thanks for all the fish!
Actually, for the second time, getting killed was part of the plan.
---------- Post automerged at 04:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:07 AM ----------
DOBs tend to hit town at a higher rate than vigs, iirc.
game is hard =(
Q, rereading his posts is actually pretty great now that my rage has disappated.
"Laern to read," gets me every time.
This was a game.
Well done Reg. Well played Fable.
My reveal induced thought on the last couple of days was that once you realized that this was a hardbussing scumteam, then you should not clear someone that was just right on everything.
Similar to Vira in the game before. Yes, you can be right on everything, but Fables conviction on some of his pushes was just a bit too much to be town and had slight TMI.
Not sure if it would have been as clear to me if I was alive in the game at the time.
I think the point we should have done better on was unalignments, though I disgree with Newcomb. We could have realized that mafia were likely to have faked fights by looking at Zenzao and Cobalt's interactions after their flips, and realizing that the team had deciding getting emotional and long winded in fights was a good strategy. Further, Zenzao's focus on Fable early on and his focus on Cobalt after Waco's flip could have been connected as a pattern of behavior, with Zen failing back on emotive bussing when the game state worried him.
Looking at the way Cobalt treated townies, particularly Stanari and Reg, compared to his scummates would have also been helpful. I think Reg in particular should have been cleared by the obvious effort Cobalt put into pocketing him and the meta situation that would make scum!Cobalt more likely to follow that route.
I noticed two things on Day 2, when pie really pushed back against Reg. The first was this was the point of the game where I kept asking Von why Fable was town. In hindsight, this was because Fable recognized the fight as town v. town too early when the rest of the town was still confused, due to knowing neither players' ranges. It's a good reminder to keep an open mind and keep an eye out for mindsets that seem out of place.
The second thing was that in pie's push on reg, she noted that he had done something similar in a previous game as town and someone (Nacho?) had to stop him. I found it strange at the time that Pie didn't consider that Reg might be going down the same path, and thought that lack of consideration was scummy. I was distracted and didn't bring it up, which I regret, as it may have helped diffuse that fight early.
Dc, von linked us to cathunt in the observers qt. That game was an easy scum victory in part because you got into a vicious fight with Mal, built worlds around it, and mislynched him. You were as honestly town there as you were here. I think the part of your play you need to reassess is your tunneling.
---------- Post automerged at 05:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:01 AM ----------
I think the message is, as usual, context matters. Instead of saying "if X is wolf, Y event is super unlikely" look at the individuals' actions and think through their reasons for making them as both alignments. Think about what you might have done, and look for that (DC's list of things he would have done as scum matched the things Fable actually did) but also give some thought to the tiwn reasoning behind their actions.
That's probably true, but my immediate reaction is that I started tunnels on Miner and Fable and then aborted them. So clearly something else is wrong as well, probably my ability to figure out what's ACTUALLY scummy
(also it feels like it'd be great to take advantage of my ability to shift lynches off myself and onto someone else to powerlynch scum, but I guess this isn't any good if I'm failing to FIND them in the first place...)
We tend to mislynch the towns who are slow to the "figuring out dc is town" party. Maybe keep that in mind?
(EBWOP: although I kind of don't realize I can push lynches until I actually DO it, so maybe I can keep an eye on that and use the ability more responsibly...I think I'm at a point where I have well-developed skills in things like lynch pushing b/c those are skills scum ALSO needs, but my ability to read players is terribad because it has received very little successful exercise)
---------- Post automerged at 07:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:09 PM ----------
I guess, but that means I can't do the thing where I get people to lynch me and then yell at them =(
---------- Post automerged at 07:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:10 PM ----------
(er, not GET people to lynch me. People just do that regardless. Just the yelling bit)
We should also maybe world build less? It takes time away from thinking about mindset analysis and we seem to get tunneled into it.
If you think someone is scum, don't let that people talk you out of it so easily.
They're scum, or they're in the same spot as you except they're missing a crucial bit of info - that you're town.
I'm not saying you should trashcan what everyone else thinks, but giving it too much importance is bad also.
For what it's worth, I don't think yok should take a break if a desire to get better at reading people is the sole reason. You'll get better through practice.
---------- Post automerged at 05:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:12 AM ----------
And if you're a dob or leeroy, maybe actually use your ability to help the town instead of trying to be a hero.
No one likes heros. They cause property damage.
If scum roleblocked me they would have saved me from myself (again).
---------- Post automerged at 07:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:15 PM ----------
I maybe played day 4 wrong too.
I was very confident that I had the strongest living PR & that Newcomb had possibly made the setup more scum favored for some OOG reasons*.
My initial roadblock was that thought I might get lynched anyway on a trueclaim, or even a 'stronger doc' claim and later Cobalt was probably going to get lynched anyway because his claim was SO BAD so I didn't actually need to clarify.
I don't pick fonti if I'm getting shot closer to 100% there, and even disregarding that, nobody seemed to consider that Newcomb would make the setup as he did which maybe changes how things played out? Hindsight and whatever, but it seems like a lot of late town decisions were based on a faulty premise that they couldn't possibly know or confirm anyway.
* - Reasons being that he worked with me on WH changes, where the discussion was in part that scumsided setups are 'less bad' than townsided ones, and also that town has a natural advantage in these games due to various factors.
---------- Post automerged at 07:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 PM ----------
also daily repost:
I guess, but I kind of went nuts this game because all there was to do was rereading I wasn't getting anything out of b/c I didn't feel competent enough :V
I'll probably split the difference and join more role-heavy games. Those still have reading components, but there are other dimensions to them too.
---------- Post automerged at 07:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:29 PM ----------
KaiDASH --- p sure that image is actually just a scumclaim :v
First off thx for the compliments everyone, was definitely a fun challenge to wolf on here for the first time and I think there are some things I can work on like maybe not bus with so much confidence because also you'll see I'm definitely not that confident usually as a villager and if I had played a few more village games on here before randing wolf I think some of you definitely would have realized that.
I still love you. <3
And for real was impressed with how much work you put into that f4, you definitely weren't a sheep. Next time do that for the whole game okay?
"I'm a good wolf" is still not a good reason to lynch me! D:
Also you should keep playing, your early-mid game was very strong I thought and I wouldn't have guessed I was going to keep you around and almost lynch you in endgame. I just think you weren't critical enough of certain things that happened later in the game but I can't imagine that being a problem for long.
Thanks for hosting thought the setup was fun and balanced (I don't really rate daychat as highly as other people though I'm kind of use to it existing as given) and vira's flavor was....
Yeah was kind of getting the vibe that was the case.
That's okay though and your great distancing I think is what secured this win.
---------- Post automerged at 08:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 AM ----------
Why is that gif frozen?
Hello darkness my old friend.......
I mean like I said: It's more that in a game where there's nothing to focus on but basic gameplay for days and days, I just kinda go stir crazy. So I'm gonna try and focus on games where there IS a fair bit of other stuff so I can get practice in at the basic gameplay without losing it :v
Man, can I just say that was just about the most dysfunctional scumchat I've ever been a part of.
I think a lot of the hyperbussing actually came from genuine frustration with partners, lol.
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