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White/Black/Grey Councils

Discussion in 'The Dresden Files' started by Erotic Adventures of S, Sep 10, 2015.

  1. Erotic Adventures of S

    Erotic Adventures of S Denarii Host

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    I thought it might be interesting to speculate who we think it on the councils. Now really this is about the Grey and Black, but I added White for people like the Merlin, who I think are not part of either, pretty much good, but not willing to do anything against the WC.

    Black Council

    * Cowl, Kimori (Who I think is Justin)
    * Peabody (dead)
    * Some Denarian
    * ErlKing or someone high in his court (Wolf pelts given to FBI)
    * Dead members of the Red Court
    * Marva
    * Maybe White King

    Grey Council
    * McCoy
    * Dresden
    * Odin
    * Leanansidhe
    * Gate Keeper (If not directly he at least supports what they do)
    * One of the Dragons (I think they would help the world against an existential threat)
    * Klaus the Toymaker

    White Council
    * Merlin
    * Listens to Winds

    Now that I right this down and think on it, I think maybe the Merlin is a double bluff, and is part of the Grey Council, but he and McCoy have this public fued to throw everyone off...
     
  2. thor2006

    thor2006 First Year

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    I find gray in fiction , as an excuse for the author to have character do terrible things like the monsters(in the black) without any remorse and with keeping the moral high ground as white. So I don't understand the author fascination with gray. Most of the time the gray is as monstrous as black and with the added snobbery that the people who are gray consider themselves being the most moral.
     
  3. Zeelthor

    Zeelthor Scissor Me Timbers

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    Mavra would make sense, yeah. What with her court losing all of its power and its standing in the world. The wolf pelt belts were connected to the weird shit happening by Dresden, but do we have any evidence the Black Council was actually involved? Seems like the kind of power the Erlking would be dealing with.

    Sort of the Wyldfae version of a Knight, actually.

    I doubt Lea actually sides with

    Not sure what you're on about, Thor. Pretty much every antagonist in Dresden Files has valid motivations unless they're literal monsters. I realize its a horrid cliché of the HP universe to discuss black/white/grey magic and all, but that's quite beside the point.
     
  4. LittleChicago

    LittleChicago Death Eater DLP Supporter

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    Let's see... 12 members of the Grey Council showed up in Changes in their fancy grey cloaks. Not long after, Word of Jim established that of those 12, 6 had already been introduced, 6 had not. We only saw two faces - McCoy and Odin. (Lea wasn't one of the twelve, as she wore no cloak; she was just 'indulging herself'.) So, 4 others we already knew at that point? I think Listens-to-Wind and Rashid are likely; Martha Liberty a solid maybe; Captain Luccio is iffy; Tera West from way-back-when I consider unlikely; Mac is a no; Ivy and Kincaid are noes; The Denarians and Knights are noes; Cowl and Kumori likely Black Council; Lara is a soft maybe.

    Now, who have we met since Changes who could conceivably be part of the Superfriends?

    Anyone from Ghost Story? I can't think of one.

    Cold days? Fae left, right, and centre, but no one new.

    Skin Game? Goodman Grey comes down as a maybe for me - he was recommended by Vadderung with a curious disclaimer - "Once you hire this man, he stays hired" - and is obviously powerful enough to put on a good show. His name is just a bonus.

    Hades himself? I'd lean hard towards no with the feeling that gods shouldn't meddle in the affairs of mortals... if Odin hadn't thrown in with McCoy. As it stands, he's another maybe.
     
  5. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling Prestige DLP Supporter

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    You missed out Maeve and Lea from early in the series.
    The traitor in the Erlking's court is likely that goblin that we got a look at in Changes, that I can't remember the name of. The one that, iirc, said that Harry and the vampires should just be held in the dungeons.

    If there was a Dragon on the Grey Council, Chitzen Itza would have gone down a lot differently. The Dragons are peers of Mab and Jim has stated that they're pretty much uniformly pissed at humanity for usurping their position in the universe.

    I picture the Gatekeeper as being more on his own side, which is then allied with any group that isn't breaking the Laws who are keeping the Outsiders out.

    Lea is Mab's handmaiden first and foremost. I think her involvement with the Grey Council is through Harry alone, as part of her role as his godmother and as a liaison from Mab.

    We've got nothing on Klaus the Toymaker aside from the fact that he's old enough to qualify for a seat on the Senior Council but refused it and that Jim wanted to write a short story about him taking out a Nazi controlled demon with a toy duck.

    The Merlin and Ebenezar have been feuding since before the War of 1812, so I doubt it's some kind of stunt.
     
  6. Zeelthor

    Zeelthor Scissor Me Timbers

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    Could Ramirez have been recruited? He's young, true, but also very competent and seems very firmly behind Harry.

    I would find it hilarious if Lara turned out to be part of the Grey Council. There's Drakul, who judging by how he's described by Ebenezar seems like an unlikely ally. I think the next book is likely to show us a few more people who are at least candidates.
     
  7. AlbusPHolmes

    AlbusPHolmes The Alchemist

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    Agreed, though I believe it's only Ferrovax, mightiest of the Dragons, who is a peer of Mab, and not the rest of them.

    I actually do also think that the Merlin is a part of the Grey Council, and it's all an elaborate double-bluff to throw everyone off and keep them guessing. His feud with McCoy seems personal in nature, and I don't see why it'd stand in the way of them uniting against an unknown threat.

    Grey Council

    McCoy, Dresden, Donar Vadderung, Mab (maybe, and in a take-a-seat-back role), Hades (see Mab), Goodman Grey, the Archive (maybe, given her role in the Oblivion War), Klaus, Rashid (on an on-off basis as suits him), Martha Liberty, Lara Raith (on the basis that she provided that military air-lift thingie for Thomas, Molly and Mouse out of Chitzen Icha at the end of Changes), Marcone (unlikely).

    Black Council

    Thorned Namshiel and his coterie, Cowl and Kumori (double-agents), Ferrovax, Mavra, Dracula and much of the Black Court, Drakul (perhaps), Lord Raith before Lara made him her bitch, Peabody (dead), Grigori Cristos, the Outsiders, the Naagloshii.

    I like the idea of there being an equal-and-opposite order of membership to both groups, for everyone on the Black Council, there's a direct counter (be it in power, duty, etc) on the Grey Council
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2015
  8. Zeelthor

    Zeelthor Scissor Me Timbers

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    It seemed like the rest of the Senior Council aren't all that happy with Christos being a part of it. What with the stuff in Changes where he wasn't aware of the security measures. I can't see Ebenezar entrusting Lara with a spot. He knows who Thomas is and doesn't trust him.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2015
  9. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Nope. Jim has stated that big D Dragons are elemental forces of the cosmos and are more akin to Asiatic dragons than Smaug. Little d dragons exist but they're just servitors of beings like Ferrovax and Siriothrax.

    I don't think he's a part of it, but I do think he's aware of its existence and tacitly supports what they're doing. He wouldn't be part of it simply because he needs to maintain plausible deniability. Harry and Ebenezar discussed why at the end of Turn Coat; if the Grey Council were ever revealed publicly the Black Council could easily set them up to take the fall for whatever plans they had in motion. That's why the Merlin can't be a part of it.

    Why would Mab need to be part of the Grey Council? Her Knight is one of the founding members already so there's no need for her to get personally involved.

    Goodman Grey might be. I'm 99% certain the Archive is not due to neutrality reasons (remember how she had to fight her own nature to give Harry advice in Changes?). Klaus we have no way to know either way due to lack of info. Rashid is possibly a member, but is likely too busy dealing with the Outer Gates.

    Martha Liberty is possible too, but also in the same boat a Klaus. Lara is probably not in because Ebenezar hates the White Court and he's the main recruiter. Also the reason for the air lift was because Thomas is her brother and it served as a show of force for everyone watching Chitzen Itza.

    Marcone could eventually be a member, I think, but I don't think so right now. The Grey Council seems to be made up mostly of supernaturally powerful members at this stage.

    Thorned Namshiel is a definite contender for me.

    Cowl and Kumori are likely part of the White Council and are definitely under Nemesis' sway.

    Ferrovax is a distinct possibility as well, thanks to that chest of (probably) gold he got from Bianca way back in Grave Peril.

    If Mavra is part of the Black Council and Cowl is part of the Black Council, why would Mavra want to prevent the Darkhallow from happening? The only option I can really see with this is that Mavra is not part of the Black Council, but is using them to further her own goals.

    Dracula/Black Court/Drakul are all possible, but we know little to nothing about their current activities.

    Lord Raith had an Outsider powered anti-magic field and a ritual calling upon He-Who-Walks-Behind. If that's not proof of membership, nothing is.

    Cristos may be Black Council, may just be an idiot.

    The Naagloshi don't need to be Black Council to be involved in the way they have. Remember as well that Peabody probably wasn't the one who sent Shagnasty after Morgan. That was probably another involved party.

    I like the idea too, but I don't think it'll work out that way in practice.
     
  10. Zeelthor

    Zeelthor Scissor Me Timbers

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    I'm fairly sure Shagnasty was the same Naglooshi that Morgan wasted with the nuke. Only he didn't know they were immortal. It's pissed off and someone tipped it off, which was enough to send it his way.
     
  11. AlbusPHolmes

    AlbusPHolmes The Alchemist

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    Still doesn't discount my point. Yes, the Dragons are all what you've said, and yes they are very powerful, but it doesn't mean any of them, with the exception of Ferrovax, has the juice to take on Mab in a one-v-one battle royale. Though, then again we may be defining peer differently - I'm using peer as a measure of power level, while you may be thinking peer as a measure of position and status.

    Fair enough. It wouldn't be a world-breaker if he was a part of them, but it's perhaps more likely that he is aware of them and in support.

    Which is why I said maybe, and in a take-a-seat-back role. Without getting involved personally, she is most likely aware of them, and in support.

    You don't have to like someone to be allied with them, in the face of a common enemy.

    You do have a point, but wars such as the one the Grey Council is waging against the Black Council are rarely fought via supernatural might alone. It is precisely why I think Marcone and Lara could be involved with the Grey Council in one capacity or the other, what with the extent of their mortal resources.

    I don't know about the latter part of them being under Nemesis' sway.

    True, but I see the Black Council as a collection of individuals pretending to have a shared goal, and in unity against the threats to said goal. Once the obstacles to their power play are eliminated, I see them splintering off and pursuing their own covert agendas, which may even pit them in conflict against each other. They play nice now in the face of the common enemy, but once that enemy is gone, their claws will be lunging for each other's throats. I think perhaps the majority of their membership is Nemesis-influenced, but the oblivion brought on by the Outsiders winning would be rather inimical to Cowl/Kumori's well-intentioned extremist ideas of the benefits of a death-less world.
     
  12. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling Prestige DLP Supporter

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    They're kind of one and the same in the Dresdenverse, but you're still missing what I'm saying. Ferrovax could take on Mab, though it's debatable who would win. He's also the greatest of the remaining Dragons. However, Dragons as a species are still peers of the Queens Who Are in the way that they play (as individuals) a huge part in the balance of power. Michael really screwed a lot of things up when he killed Siriothrax, despite it being the weakest of the Dragons.

    Mhm. I'm just taking note of the wording more than anything. Mab doesn't put herself directly under the power of anyone if she can help it, so it's unlikely she'd be part of an organisation like the Grey Council.

    I think you're underestimating how much Ebenezar hates the White Court. Their King is directly responsible for the death of his daughter. He demonstrated exactly how little regard he had for Lara when he went Darth Vader on her on Demonreach.

    As well as that, we're told the whole Grey Council turned up for Chitzen Itza. How could Lara call in an airlift if she was busy fighting vampires? Besides, it's not really her style to show up in person.

    Eh, maybe, but that's a very modern viewpoint for an organisation made up primarily of older wizards and the likes. Harry may have considered something like it (distaste for dealing with Marcone/Lara aside) but he hasn't had much input into the Grey Council. Hell, he hasn't even met everyone yet.

    They're the primary contenders for being Nemesis operatives. Read the first conversation Cowl and Harry have during Dead Beat again. Cowl doesn't have a good reason for pursuing the Darkhallow, Kumori's reasons just stink of the same manipulation used to tempt Maeve, he's allied with the Red Court (who chose that moment to unleash Outsiders against the Council) and was Vittorio's ally during the White Court coup. All of these are beings/plots we know involved Outsiders, and the plot thread tying them all together is Nemesis.

    It's possible, but runs contrary to the idea that the Outsiders work together. All of them. If Nemesis is behind all of these plots, why would it act contrary to its own purposes? Harry wouldn't have known shit about the Word of Kemmler if Mavra hadn't turned up to threaten him. The Darkhallow would have almost certainly gone off without a hitch and Cowl would have crushed Edinburgh to dust.
     
  13. Blazzano

    Blazzano Unspeakable

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    I've always liked the idea that Mavra was actually on the Grey Council, though there's certainly no direct evidence to that end.

    It depends on what type of group the Grey Council is, though. Our views of it are colored by the fact that the known members are seemingly all good guys, working outside their usual channels to effect change and defend existence. If that is what it is, then obviously Mavra has no place there.

    But it might not be that. It might be an alliance of pragmatism that includes people who despise each other in some cases, united in the knowledge that the threat they're facing transcends their personal disputes.

    One hypothetical rationale for Mavra being a member is that, despite being evil, the outcome desired by the Black Council would run counter to whatever she wants out of the world. From a storytelling point of view, it's a fun idea because it opens up the possibility of Dresden being forced to work with her one day.
     
  14. Rayndeon

    Rayndeon Professor

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    There's also Aurora in the thrall of Nemesis for the Black Council. Deceased, obviously.

    Speaking of Mavra being on the Gray Council, it would be interesting if Nicodemus was on the Gray Council. Deidre seemed to be sincere in thinking that she and her father were working to save the world - which is terrifying if you think about it.

    More likely is that he works apart from the Gray Council, but several of their goals line up with his.
     
  15. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Possibly. Jim has stated that any of the Fallen would gleefully open up the Outer Gates, if they had the chance, so it's distinctly possible that Nicodemus thinks he's working against the Outsiders but is actually helping them because of Anduriel.

    Hell, it's possible (though less likely than most other explanations) that the reason the Fallen fell in the first place is because of Nemesis.
     
  16. Erandil

    Erandil Headmaster

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    Really? What justification did he use for that? because that really conflicts with my understanding of what the Fallen and their goals are - how exactly do the profit by the destruction of the universe as we know by creatures beyond even their understanding?
     
  17. Erotic Adventures of S

    Erotic Adventures of S Denarii Host

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    The fallen hate God and want to destroy humanity and the Earth to spite him.
     
  18. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling Prestige DLP Supporter

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    They're extra-universal entities. Presumably they'd be able to survive the destruction of the universe, though what their goals are beyond that is anyone's guess.
     
  19. Koalas

    Koalas Dark Lord DLP Supporter

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    Because that goes counter to the book of Revelations. If Heaven doesn't 'win' the Apocalypse then God isn't all powerful and the Fallen were right for rebelling.