Well, that depends on how you define the word lesser. Obviously, I don't know what this get out of jail free card is, but if I'm right in that it's simply a faster process that requires less bureaucracy like implied, then in cases where bans are being handed out, a speedy, easier resolution to the issue (especially if the banned party was being wronged) versus a long, drawn-out process where every member of the staff that can be contacted has a discussion that could take days is lesser, at least to me.

Because the heart of the matter is that in terms of total ban length, a Prestige member is much more likely to get their situation resolved in a more timely manner than a member with 5 posts. And while the standard that members are held to may be the same, the treatment of members are not.

 

No one explicitly advocated that. Perhaps @Aekiel was the most on the nose with saying that people who abuse power shouldn't have it.

I won't speak for anyone else, but bluntly, this whole thing didn't blow up like it did because of anything that happened in Politics. If Xiph0 has developed a sharper edge because of his moderation of Politics, okay, but the best information we all have right now is that they had a catfight on IRC and Xiph0 put nmb on lagswitch for ~10 days (there's a recent post of nmb's from like July 9th where he left feedback in a googledoc because he said the site wasn't working well for him, so it's not like nmb immediately flipped his shit).

People expressed sad feels about vlad when Xiph0 banned him for the infamous Trumperium derail, but no one seriously said "fuck this, Xiph0 is wrong", we all agreed that the derail was an epic clusterfuck in the end. I mean to say that the fact that Xiph0 moderates Politics is not relevant to this discussion. What people have brought up has largely to do with shitfits on IRC.

This is the most important and positive outcome of this situation, but it's a damn shame DLP lost nmb to make it happen.

 

In the spirit of feedback, I'll say that I think this is a good-intentioned idea that could work here, but it's also got its share of problems.

We do something pretty similar to this on Mafia Universe, and while comparing site cultures / site goals for MU and DLP is like apples and oranges, I'll just share a few of the headaches it's brought us:

- It invites comparisons between punishments. "X did Y and then later Z also did Y and yet X got a 2 month ban and Z only got a 1 month ban." Standard rules lawyering type stuff. I'd like to think we're got a pretty good immune system when it comes to that, but. A lot of people don't understand that mod action is oftentimes more about the response to moderation and not the initial inciting incident. And unless you include that in the mod log, it can start to look "unfair" when it's not.

- If you do include those private details, though, you get into user privacy issues where you're airing dirty laundry in a way that's not entirely productive.

- It's tough to keep the tone / level of detail in the log consistent from entry to entry, especially over a long period of time, and very tough to strike a good balance between consistency and context. If the log isn't written to a "standard format," it makes decisions look capricious. If it is written in a standard format, it tends to come off as Messages From Human Resources-level impersonal and eventually drives a wedge between the mods and the users, by making mods feel like they need to adopt a "mod face", and then mods start being not just regular users who also help with the site, but something Other, and then you get into mods vs. users territory.

- If you leave the thread open for comment, rules-lawyering is inevitable. If you make it a corkboard, it can start to feel impersonal.

None of these are insurmountable, and the site I'm drawing these experiences from is very different than DLP - it's a melting pot / aggregate site that draws from tons of other communities and has a built-in influx and turnover of users every year. My instinct is that DLP would handle it a lot better, and that mods would be able to find that balance on the tightrope a lot easier than we have.

Just, FWIW, these are some of the challenges we've faced with a public mod log.

 

Nice sales pitch, but there’s a dark side to being pink! The term “should have known better” comes to mind. I know none of this is about Vlad, but I still think the DLP death penalty that a permaban is should be used a lot more sparingly. Personally I think nuking the C2 gets close, if anything, but if we’re discussing punishment anyway...

This might already be in place, but a strike based system, with week long bans, month bans, 6 month bans and if that STILL doesn’t fix the problem something more permanent?

I honestly didn’t know Vlad that well, and Enembee a lot less still, but this site is my internet home and it’s residents extended family. Whether I like the individual or not, all the people on this site make it what it is, and it hurts a little bit whenever we lose someone.

Maybe I’m overly emotional here, think it’s a bit silly myself, but it’s how I feel. My two cents.

 

I don't have prestige and probably won't for a while, but I have to weigh in if we're trying to get rid of the special privileges that prestige members have. Being prestige doesn't mean you've been dicking around for five years or whatever, it means you've been contributing and making everyone else's experience richer in some meaningful way. Presuming we're not talking about posts that are just spam or what would get you banned, posting is good. Members posting makes me not close out of the tab as soon as I open it. There should be some kind of reward for making a great amount of posts, and having an 'extra life' or an appeal process both make sense as a reward. When vlad was banned, I went ahead and assumed that derailing the thread was the last straw rather than the first one, because that was the only way it made sense. I'd be supremely disappointed if he hadn't had other infractions in the past.
If someone who just joined this site crosses a mod, he or she gets banned, without being able to use the 'ignorant new member' defense, precisely because that's the only way to get people to read the rules. I can't even imagine the load on the mods if we had to give every new member second or third chances or a super speedy appeal process, but I don't know how often new people join.

 

@Lord Ravenclaw

I don't think anyone ask you to be fun police.
Humor comes in different shades, some people view messing with your account details, as crossing the line.
Further If I can't access DLP because I'm lagging, how I'm suppose to alert/ask/contact anyone ? from what others mention it can last days.

My criticism, isn't directed at Staff member Z, just asking to either draw a line, or ask the Staff to be more self aware. Some lines shouldn't be crossed with users.
Certain powers, shouldn't be used for punishment.

Edit
Last note: I hope some of nmb good friends will be able to reach him, and help him resolve this.

 

Although it started as a joke, I think that is definitely a key part of what Prestige has become, so people should absolutely be aware of it. You're basically saying 'I've been around long enough to know better than to shit up the forum and I'm commiting to not doing it.' By doing so, you are offered a 1 time bannable offense protection. I have no idea if his protection was still in place, but what enembee did goes so far beyond the confines of bannable forum offense that I don't think his Prestige card should have saved him anyway.

I think those are all decent suggestions. We definitely do already have a temporary ban system in place for minor infractions. Or we did on the old site?

 

I dunno, I think that should only be applicable in some cases. Plagarists obviously still need an instant and permanent ban.

 

I personally think that Xiph is great and a demotion would solve nothing, but there has to be something laid down for mods/admins about bringing a gun to a knife fight.

 

LOL Mah bois I just woke up to find something like this happening LOL.

I've been lurking since I was twelve (that being two years ago), I can't say I know the full extent of what happened. Call me a cock if you want to.

I think nmb received what he deserved. He gave shit and thus took shit. Sure, mods being pests with your avatar is annoying, but retaliation by doing something as drastic as removing countless stories is nothing short of petty, immature, etc.

This is like me getting slapped by a girl, and retaliating by stabbing her to death. If there's a problem wait for it to settle and resolve it with a rational mindset. Don't pull shit like this.

 

I pretty strongly believe that "discourage" setting shouldn't be used as punishment. Mute, warn, work through levels of banning if you have to. Use the setting to get rid of straight trolls/plagiarists, but don't fucking gaslight forum members

 

God that sounds worse than a actual ban. That’s just aggravating. Given it also seems some people aren’t aware that it’s active on them, it may add to the over reaction.

Please just slap a actual temp ban, that sounds like cruel and unusual punishment.

 

I agree - Xiph has over the years I've interacted with him, been great.

His moderation history, even with a couple of black marks, is not to be dismissed, and I do agree that a dismissal is probably a bit much, but something like a probation doesn't sound nearly as over the top. Think "no bans without review by other staff" or something similar (I don't know what the staff permissions look like but generally "things that can be used to fuck over other users to the point where they have to contact other staff" should probably be vetted for a while when someone just misused it).

Also yeah, save this for the scumbags that can't be deterred by other means. It's something that could literally ruin someone's week.

 

Practically speaking, there is a big difference between someone who is a normal member in good standing for years, then does something stupid and offensive and someone who's stupid and offensive from the instant they join the forum. It's the same as the difference between a close friend being a dick one day, versus some random stranger just walking up to you and immediately being an asshole. One merits a "Dude, WTF? Don't do that again!" and the other "GTFO you psycho!"

I agree with others that the discouraged setting should not be used as a joke/petty revenge. On top of the issues others have brought up, it makes the remedy of contacting another mod to look into the matter a lot harder to actually manage. The victim doesn't even know that they're being targeted as opposed to technical issues, and it's a lot harder to actually contact a mod when the site is made all but unusable.

Also, just knowing that setting exists and could possibly be applied arbitrarily is going to make people paranoid when/if they have legitimate technical issues.

 

I don't frequent the IRC and I'm more a lurker here and I understand that being a moderator can be a shitty and difficult job so I'm not going to comment on the particular of the case.
As nmb was one of the reasons I joined DLP and from what I understand aside from this episode was a member in good standing, I would like to echo the call for giving him a chance in the future to join back. This was apparently really uncharacteristic and he might be going through a difficult moment IRL. I know it's not an excuse, but it can be an extenuating circumstance.
I don't know he much weight this post might have coming from a lurker, but I wanted to express my opinion

 

I've been thinking about this on and off today, and reading through the thread while on my commute home. Given that, one thing does occur to me:

Not knowing the specifics of the particular conversation in IRC, it's hard to say, but I think we need to be a bit better about when what happens in Vegas turns into a problem on the site in general. That seems to be the crux of the matter in this instance, and in many of the anecdotes that other folks have offered in this thread.

I think it's important that getting into an argument with a mod, any mod, on IRC should not be viewed as the same thing as breaking the rules, however unwritten they may be. Getting into a screaming match (if that's what it was) isn't harrassment, it's not plagiarism, it's not trolling or spamming. It's a fight. Friends fight, but they also get over it. So getting kicked from IRC for the evening to cool off might be appropriate, but anything more than that for something short of one of the Big Bad Behaviors above is, I think, excessive.

BUT.

Nmb's situation here is rather unique in my view because of the special status of the C2 as it relates to DLP as a whole, and the special access he had in the C2.

Put simply, although he may have started the C2 on his own for his own reasons, it got "adopted" as being a part of DLP itself. Nmb accepted and even promoted this. And as a result, that put him in a position of trust.

Trust he broke for selfish reasons.

So the end result of that is that nmb got shorted, but what he did in response is what broke him, and it should be viewed in that lens.

However. I'm not sure a permanent ban, even in this case, is the best course of action. 2-6 months, the loss of prestige, and the loss of trust and affection by losing his role as DLP curator seems more appropriate. At least, to me.

/my 2 cents

 

Just a thought, did either vlad or enembee use up their ban protection? I've been going back and forth on whether either of their offenses really warranted permabans, especially if these were first time incidents.

Enembee maybe simply went too far, with the seriousness equating to something like plagiarism/irlHarassment/etc. Vlad... I dunno... maybe not?