So. Rhand.

Lemme hit you with that sweet AtE before we get started: We're not strangers, you have at least a general idea of how I play, and you have certainly seen me play this exact way in any other games we've played together.
Which, by they way, is not "aggressive": I dive into the game head first.
You're also the third person to use that word? I'm not sure what that means, but I will ask you the same I asked them: Define aggressive. What's the difference between it and my usual diving in?

Ok, let's take this piece by piece:

Looking. I see 3 playful post in the RVS stage before I ask my first legitimate question on #23 (of your slot). These are also within my first 10 posts in the game, less than 15% of that first page, so very much not "mainly."
And yeah, I keep joking around, but I don't let stuff go: My next post after that is a pic of my dog (for which you should be thanking me for), but immediately after that are the aggression questions, which I seize on until satisfied - so how are they softball?
I am not "looking" active and involved, I am active and involved. I know it's tricky to decide which is which, but one has an easy-to-follow path from beginning to resolution and the other fizzles out. Where have I fizzled out?

Correct. Grape wasn't, as I recall, being looked at by any other player so where's the scum benefit of me going after him? To also use your own words [waiting out to see how the thread evolves] would have me looking at other targets, or, more likely, wait longer.

No, did both.
Grape first, Umami after:

Spoiler: Progression on Grape

^Of note is that I missed this post at first.

^My reaction to seeing that post.

Tbh, I've been waiting for someone to press me more on this, I'm surprised it took this long. Not sure how I feel that it was you.
Like it says in the last post quoted: Haven't addressed why but did so partly and unprompted here.
My read on Grape was based on his behavior being more (hah) aggressive that I'm used to for him, and this deviation not coming from a place I found genuine.
This was not what led to the vote: If you follow my progression of my read, so see me arrive to the vote after I believe to have caught him in a contradiction. Even then, my vote was more of pressure and observance than that of a fully committed read.
Anyway, then he explained the contradiction in a way I believed in and misunderstood, which just left the aggressiveness. I point out how I still think that's weird but "not scummy though" on its own. I specially don't think scum!Grape tries this on Tom of all people. Point A to point B progression - which you read and missed.
Clear? Clear.

Obviously, I've answered everything you say about Grape here above: I do not see how the reasoning is bad and everything is clear; do you disagree with my conclusion? And I'm not keeping my vote on someone I'm not scumreading, that's a waste of time.
(ftr, I didn't intend to vote Gemma just yet, but, yeah, I should have voted way sooner. Full disclosure, I had completely forgotten to.)
Anyway, Umami:

Spoiler: Progression on Umami

This was my initial thought on her, and obviously I shouldn't have let myself be distracted

This is where I first start to reconsider, and explain why next:

I am super clear on where I'm going with this and how I arrived at it.

Right off the bat: I was wrong, umami was town.
I saw her movements, her stubbornness with tom and her fixation on certain things, as new scum being cornered and thinking that if she backed down she was outing herself (as some scum do). I saw a connection to Gemma, and I thought I had caught scum.
Out of the three you bring up here, however, she is the one whose steps in my progression have been most transparent and easy to see - how in the hell is she someone I'm grilling out of nowhere? I even saw how that perceived tom/her connection still applied onto Gemma and explained it.
I was wrong, but you can't tell me I had no reason or conviction in what I believed.

Spoiler: Gemma Progression

^In response to Gemma's response to pressure on being "aggressive"

^in response to Font voting Gemma

Admittedly, I didn't out-and-out call Gemma scum, but I do not believe you if you are trying to tell me you legitimately read my posts and didn't think I was leaning that way, or how I got there.
She replaced out, so no one to press and wagon already going. I got massively busy when Miner arrived so I don't think I ever got a chance to real-time interact with him, and what I read as I caught up didn't sway me.
Now I'm trying to engage with Miner and seeing what happens.

Though I also admit that it was likely going to be my lynch no matter what because Fonti was voting for her.
I'm a simple man, if one of Fonti/Gemma vote for the other and legitimately believes it? Unless I have a specific reason not to, I'm fucking sheeping them.
They flip wrong, depending on what it means, I might need to press on the surviving one. The flip right, the surviving one is my strongest townread.
It's simple, but easy and probably works. Hence my preference for Gemma.

That post was 7:47pm. Mine was 7:49pm. EoD1 was chaos and believe it or not, I was ninja'd.
Plus by that time I had asked a while ago if anyone would change their votes, and no one was moving, and it was 10 minutes to deadline. I had to move.

True. Didn't care that much which, I wasn't dying for miner over umami and I had no time to make a case. Did you forget I thought both were scum?
Also, I asked them to move because of GH/Font clearance and I told them I thought Miner was the better lynch - what else did you want me to do?

Alright, done: Rhand, even if you don't agree with my cases, the natural and real progression from point A to point B is there. From start to finish.
I don't see what you're seeing here, but then, I wouldn't regardless. Now talk back.

(Also, I'm sloth here)

ftr, are you saying Tom/I are a scummates this game?

 

I'm incredibly intrigued by all of this, so I can't wait to hear more. You and I should talk about Sloth and tom specifically. Just making a note of it.

 

Can you address the questions you were asked?

 

Why is that?

 

Rhand, don't address my post yet.

 

MP7, what would you ask GH for if he were here? What, off the cuff, do you feel least confident on that you would like input on?

If you're not having a good time in the thread, maybe it might be good to take a step back and chill for a little bit longer before coming back? Like, we're all here to have fun, I don't want anyone who's not having fun to feel forced to be here... That's ~@ the thread in general.

 

Osie, talk to me on your read of me. Point to example of it.
How did I go from GOAT town yesterDay near EoD to this?
How did Rhand mindmeld on you?
What specific parts of the case did you agree with and why?

 

Why? From the way you worded this post, it seems like it's not just for the reason of the mindmeld?

 

GH is perhaps the single player I would be most excited to play with in general after I was town and he was scum in MU Champs Finals '18, let alone if we were both town. So of course I was particularly more nervous and excited around him.
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And to be clear I don't mean any disrespect to anyone else, it's just I only got to play with him that one time and it as well as hearing about the way he plays as town made a huge impression on me.

I'm generally speaking happy to be playing with you all because I feel like I'm among an incredible group of players with respect to skill, conscientiousness, etc. I don't know why I can't shake off my feelings about the game otherwise.
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Just any help, guidance, motivation, anything for me to do. I feel least confident about any of my own ability to generate competent reads right now, which is a feeling I know will fade at some point but I can't deny it.

I really feel like I would be doing all of you a disservice if I did that.

 

You weren't strongly scumreading her then? Or am I misunderstanding?

Which players would you have lynched yesterday if viability was not an issue.

I think my response to rhand addresses this thoroughly, let me know if not.

 

Did I not respond to this? My bad. I literally have no idea about Fluff, he's done nothing of note that I can remember. I'll go ISO him whenever I get around to that.

I do remember him playing pretty similarly the last time we played together, just sort of floating through the game, occasionally making a post with an opinion.
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I am at least ~current now, so I suppose I will take a brief break and then come back and try to actually start forming opinions. I've thrown away my reads in the trash, as I feel like starting from scratch will not only be good for me but is the natural inclination.

 

MP7 - maybe step away and get some air for a bit?
If I'm being harsh in my replies, I apologize.

"Well, that really sucked."
Immediate reaction to the Day start (fourth post) and nothing else.
Every other post before or after is in its own way somewhat gamesolvey - but this one feels like lip service.
I worded the question about it badly (sorry), but what I was trying to do is prod at it and figure out your mental state.

I think comments like this, blanket comments about "oh no, damn you scum" without a factor that progresses the game are usually scummy in origin. Add to that that I'm already (obviously) looking at you toDay, seemed like a good a start as any.
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Keldeo was Town, btw.

 

This isn't really what I was looking for, but I guess my question was a little indirect for that. Which people in this game are your top priorities to come to a conclusion on?

I had a hard time getting a bead on you for most of yesterday, at least enough that I didn't feel strongly enough to come into today with a strong prior read on you. I haven't looked at your EOD play and I was too tired to do that yesterday.

Like, most of your reads list seems reasonable, checks out. But I feel like you'd be the type of careful wolf who would leave no openings to be called out on inconsistencies or bad reasons; you seem like the type of person to make sure that everything you do is "reasonable" and "checks out".
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and I'll freely admit that because I've never seen you wolf, that's mostly projecting my wolfgame onto yours and to an extent relying on old self-meta from you that I only half remember. But you can tell me if it's wrong.

 

(1) Agreed. It's why that second paragraph is there.
re: Nerves. Granted, I don't think we've played much (I think only that 1+1 HP game and maybe another one?) so I'm not super familiar with your style, but I would assume a scum player would have more reason to be nervous when interacting with strong town player than another town player. Do you disagree?
Additionally, the fact that it only happens with GH is still very relevant.

(2) I think this was said in different words already, but essentially the impression is that you're always aware of other players and how they're perceiving you to an extreme level, and are making (more than reasonable) moves to appear as appealing to them as possible.
(i.e. that crowd pleasing thing)

(3) You didn't say it, but the implication was/seemed very cleared that I was the reason for it - if not, can you point me to a specific post(s) where you go over your view on umami (preferably prior to mine).

(4) The point was that the content:read ratio appears disproportionate to me, and some of the reads did not fit neatly, given the information available at the time.
I actually touch on that in 811 (i.e. "reasons" lead to "townread", more like "townread" leads to "reasons") and it points to TMI.
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Off-game for a second: MP7, I'm sorry things aren't great right now. It's okay to step back if you aren't feeling it.
Hope you feel better

 

No, I wasn't. I've had very few strong reads this game.

Maybe fire? I definitely considered voting him but decided against it because of the viability issue. His progression on the wagon felt a little opportunistic assuming Miner to be town, his playstyle was one I had a hard time reading, my purity read on his first posts felt thin considering.

Yeah, it addresses it. To make sure I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that you thought both were mafia, and just believed Miner to be the better vote because of Gemma being read strongly by fonti? My impression from your posts is that your scumread on Umami seemed stronger, but maybe what you had conviction in was your w/w read on Umami/Miner?

 

God DLP needs to bump up its smiley game.

 

Rhand, could you elaborate on what you like and dislike from him?

 

Dude, I voted at 7:17pm (whoops) I was supposed to be free all day but things got in the way.
I asked for people to move to Miner at 7:19pm and 7:30pm:

Even though I was still catching up (and for the record, I did not finish until after Day end.)

And between the time of that post and when I voted (7:49pm), someone else (Fluff) voted on Umami, tipping the balance from 5/5 towards her.
There were 10 minutes left in the game. It was over. We barely got enough votes for a lynch as is.
What the fuck else did you want for me to do, exactly?
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wait that's actually a good point.

@Fluffiness why Umami over Miner? You cited "gross reasons" (i'm starting to fucking hate that word)
Was there more?
You said you didn't like Miner (or "it's not like you like [him]"), but what was your read on him period?
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Don't think in terms of disservice, just have fun. =)

Here's a prompt: Look back to all your scumreads throughout the game, did you dismiss any too early? Is something worth revisiting?
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Hm. What are your impressions on rhand on his own, as his replacement?

Correct.
Noteworthy is that I do consider Gemma making assumptions (she is too thorough for that) and misrepresenting of me to be major scumtells as far as she's concerned. Fonti (who I was townreading) tossing a strong scumread on her D1 just cemented it.
From there I started looking for partners.
As for Miner...there's a reason I'm not voting him. More on that if it becomes relevant.

 

Ooh two meta defenses.
Ima get weird with it.

 

I mean it's a little bit of what Sloth was saying as well in that your approach tends to be hey let's have a positive interaction because that's more enjoyable for both of us than being harsh, but I was more talking about how you were couching things and, I think, not pushing as far as you could and maybe should in some places with reads. I got the sense of you not wanting to tread on toes. W.r.t. tailoring things to people, this isn't really an ai thing as much as a style thing; if you've ever played against someone like Visor as a wolf he'll often be super friendly and open and treat you like a villager while deciding on his own that you're a wolf before firing you into the sun. Separate thing to my main point, though.
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Tom, not sloth, I think.
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This is either just a villager or a wolf who's demotivated but in a way that's willing to do stuff that's kinda beneath the table from his normal perspective, and I really don't think it's the latter.
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M+, if you're looking to be pointed in a certain direction I'm still curious to hear any thoughts you might have on EoD-- pretty much nobody was fighting against the Miner lynch, but the lynch lurched over late onto Umami I think largely because she was more... pointy? Grapefruit was casing her early, then tom, keldeo, GH, all vocal influential people, shifted over pretty quickly. Are there any votes there that stand out? Anything about the gamestate leading up to/during it?