Uh, broad strokes pretty similar to a lazy town game. Usually focused on maintaining trust and appearances rather than killing villagers. Bussing tendencies (sorry again for Wonka, haha.) In comparison to my towngame, more decisive and forceful, a bit lower volume.

I don't know. I think I just need to reread you and mull it all over because I think your posting style, regardless of alignment, is like... one that I will find pleasant and reasonable in real time, which makes me want to townread you for the thought and effort put into things, but then immediately doubt myself because you probably sound like this and put in that effort all the time, right?

I'll probably be ISOing all evening if you want to talk more.

 

That sounds good, I would love to.
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It was really just to get conversation going in that direction and/or a counterwagon. But yeah, to some degree I just feel like we've been ignoring him as far as any real suspicion, and off the top of my head when I think of everyone, his impact is the one of the least.
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Nothing has changed, no, although time pending I'll still give his ISO a look.
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I love the JR Smith comparison, for the record.

Not sure what mine would be in basketball terms. Totally depends on the game, the site, how much time I have. I'll have to think about it.

Yeah, I looked back at the PBPA as well and I didn't find it convincing, but I appreciate Osi's effort nonetheless. The Keldeo/Cuth connection is intriguing though, something to consider for the future as well.

 

Cool!

Sloth, why'd you ask Grapefruit about me? I feel like he's been firmly and openly scumreading me for a while.

 

maybe we should try to like not worry about shit so much anymore​

Votecount 3.1

Sloth (1): Rhand

Abstaining (9): Sloth, Keldeo, Cuthalion, Grapefruit21, M Plus 7, Miner, The Waco Kid, Fluffiness, Cobalt

With 9 alive, soft lynch is 5 and hard lynch is 7.

Deadline is here.

 

VOTE: RHAND
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I don't feel like Rhand really believes this. These smell forced to me. I sense no real emotion or urgency either.

Not a big fan of Keldeo's responses either tbh.
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Spoiler

[/spoiler]

This post by Keldeo also is a big bowl of nothing, despite the fact that he goes out of his way to say a lot about fire/Rhand. It's all so especially noncommittal even by Keldeo standards.

I also dislike that Keldeo uses Osi's read to lead to a slight town read of Rhand, it doesn't make sense to me, so maybe Keldeo can speak to that.

And add another Rhand/Keldeo interaction that has a softball question. Like what does it matter towards developing a read on Rhand's alignment at all about reading d1 without flips?

Keldeo/Rhand absolutely have w/w equity to me right now. I feel stronger about Rhand being scum though.
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That spoiler got messed up a bit, I think because that Keldeo post had a spoiler, my bad.
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Rhand's play today is also full of dead reads and WIFOM and it's all really disgusting.
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@Rhand

Why are you talking about a towncore that's outdated by two dead people? Like, what even?

 

I don't understand why Rhand thought that I would think I should be in his towncore.

That post is me reaching to try to make ~something of fire's posts and not coming up with a lot. I wasn't looking for an inherently AI answer to the question about reading without flips - I was curious because I've never read without flips, and working with incomplete information is weird to me. If he had given a different answer, I might have been suspicious that he was just making all that up about SRing fonti and TRing Umami in his first few posts just to have empty content, but I can understand it if he wants to focus on mindmelds.

 

Why are you even thinking about it this way?

Why does a townie think automatically think of the entire gun situation through this lens, and through a player as "a mislynch candidate"?
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Rhand is open wolfing honestly.
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I appreciate the answer, but it doesn't really make me feel any better about it.

 

Oh, and this is because Osie and Rhand are from the same site, and Osie seemed strongly pro-Rhand being town for meta reasons. It's essentially the same reason why I'm clearing Fluff partially because of tom, but it's on a lighter level because I don't have much experience with Rhand and Osie's read was really abstract and I didn't get it.
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Alright.

Gimme a sec to finish up the ISO I'm doing and look at Rhand again. Are there other posts you bring into it?

 

Got it, thanks!
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Go for it. What do you mean exactly by the question?

 

Sorry, I mean are there other posts than the ones that you quoted that make you feel strongly? i.e. case him for me?
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I mean, unless you want my unbiased take on the other stuff he's done toDay.
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Grapefruit... There are a lot of little things I like.

Poking at town tom early, marginally towny, I talked about this a lot day 1.

Tom called out Grapefruit's lack of progression on him yesterday at EOD (the "raisins" post), but I actually see maybe a throughline in his early read on tom. After the exaggerated scumread for "forcing" at the start, Grape's scumread on Umami was partially because he thought that she was TMIing Tom town in her conversation with him. He calls Tom town in the same post that he votes Umami. Then he said d3 that he kept townreading Tom based on "Fonti/GH's flip, your relative clarity due to meta differences, and plain old sheeping" and the first makes sense if he started townreading based on Umami, then kept going with the flip, maybe?

There's this sense throughout of him like... spooling out threads and then picking them up a little later. Like him asking me why I was asking so many questions on day 1 with a semi-critical tone but not really explicitly scumreading me, then extending that into an actual scumread for not following up on day 2 that's continued until now.

I could actually see this coming from wolf Grapefruit if he wolfs from a POV of making genuine observations about things. But applying this to his read on me again, if he actually thinks that my questions don't seem curious, that kind of conflicts with him knowing that they're genuinely curious if he's mafia? If that makes any sense.

Also feel like this reluctance in particular is a good look knowing Miner is town, I think?

I think I agree with MP7's take on his EOD in that it feels agendaless. I can believe what he's saying about why he wanted to vote Sloth.


Where I'm hesitant is that... it's a little bare because he hasn't been here a ton. He's been wrong a decent amount (although I think everyone has at this point, lol). He probably fits into groupings with people like Seratin/Waco who I don't particularly townread while he's been defending them to some degree. I still don't really see his Seratin read, or why Waco stayed so high for him going into day 2.

But it all, like... makes sense with itself - he's consistent. I can believe that he believes the Seratin read, in particular. Him and Waco dropping each other going into toDay also doesn't entirely gel with them being w/w previously going the hard defense route.

Also like does scum Grapefruit really just admit to this.
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tbh I went into that ISO wanting to find Grape as town because of my super early read and so I might have overlooked stuff that's suspicious from him, but I still feel okay about it.

Like, constructing the world, if he's mafia with Seratin or whatever, there's a straightforward openwolfiness to his defense of him, which doesn't really fit with the almost... shyness and self-undermining in a few of his pushes and in his admitting to his EOD being bad. I don't know if this makes any sense, but I'm into it.
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I guess a better way to say that is, if Grapefruit is mafia, I think he would be quite bold in some respects but not in others. But I would expect him to be uniformly one or the other.
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I don't know if that's enough for me to be like super confident in the read when I didn't get a satisfying answer about his meta. Rhand seemed to agree with me earlier, tom found his progression unsatisfying but I don't agree with that being an issue, I think that's everyone from MTGS?

Okay, looking at Rhand now.
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I lied, one more post about Grape. Maybe I'd expect him to be more hedgy on things, like maybe the "undermining" is actually just part of him trying to imitate his own hedge as town or something. But to be clear I come down on the town side for him.

 

Sorry for vanishing, Keldeo, I'm really not feeling 100% (it's not COVID-19 though, I promise, just headaches).

To answer your question, I did a quick ISO skim for fire/Rhand and nothing really stuck out one way or the other, so that's why I didn't mention anything else -- it's hard to imagine the case on Sloth being hard to do as scum, and his impact has been lessened since he had to miss deadline yesterday for IRL reasons, so I naturally won't hold that against him. And naturally, fire was an enigma, could be newbie town or scum at this point. So I'd say it's pretty much based on toDay's posting and the rest of the post history being scum-compatible for sure. If you have input there by all means, I'd love to hear it.

Let me try to shake this off and I'll be back ASAP. I just have a bit of work I have to do over the next couple of days but otherwise this game is my main priority.

 

I'm reading the thread, but unless absolutely imperative, will probably not chime in.

 

So wait, Miner is townfirmed now, yes?

 

No worries MP7, your health comes first!

Agree that fire/d2 Rhand could go either way, which makes reading the slot a little frustrating.

I'm okay with Rhand's block including two dead people because I specifically asked him about his townblock from yesterday. Although, if he's town and was confident in his towncore and Sloth being mafia, I'm not too sure what he meant by not wanting mafia to be influenced by the decision. Like, banking on mafia thinking that his towncore actually had mafia in it and then giving him the gun?

I'm not sure if I see what you're seeing to the same degree. I can see why what he's doing is sus in pushing a narrative about the gun toDay and just continuing his Sloth push. If he's mafia, giving the gun to Miner must have been a thought-out decision with its ramifications being constructed such that his conclusions off that narrative benefit his partners*, but I'm not sure who those partners are. Just continuing to allow him to push Sloth, maybe? Beyond my TR on grape I don't think grape and Rhand are w/w just based on grape's comment to him about seeing my questions the same way, though it's a little weak. (*although he kind of let go of some of his conclusions?)

Based on my impression of his wolf game he seems like he would be a little stubborn as a villager. Stubborn isn't the right word, but like, focused on one aspect of things. So I could see a world where he's town and believes what he's saying about the gun / is confbiasing Sloth, and is just processing stuff with a somewhat narrow focus on the mechanical implications of the gun and his own interpretation of it, maybe without like... that wide-ranging solvy spark, I guess? I dunno. I'm still in the dark about what he thinks about living players in the end, and in that sense I'm talking myself into your read a bit.

What do you mean by WIFOM in his posts?
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Yeah, since he got the gun. Where are you at right now?
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On a level that post was also a lot of nothing about Rhand idk. I want to believe in your read strongly because you seem to feel strongly about it, but I just... don't think I see what you see. I read the posts and I can see them coming from a villager or a wolf.

re: the "mislynch candidate" thing, he also thought of Tom as "a mislynch candidate"/"mislynchable" based on his posts about him to me. But that seems like, a step askew to mafia probably killing tom because he wasn't mislynchable. Same with like... if he was mafia and actually thought Miner was mislynchable, why would he give him the gun... with conviction that he would shoot wrong? It's possible that he's TMIing the latter bit if that's true, but then why not massage the narrative? Does that make any sense?
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Oh man it would be so funny if Rhand is actually mafia and goes over today, and then I get lynched tomorrow for soft defending him, just like I did in MTGS.
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*in the one game I've played on MTGS, ever changing seasons. Not like the entire site is a monolith.
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Oh @M Plus 7 what do you think of Grapefruit's read on Seratin, that his partners are limited because of his first post of day 2? Grape and I talked about it in posts 1342-1349, and I feel like neither of us really swayed the other, haha.
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If I start with Rhand w - me, Miner, Grape, Fluff v. Sloth not with him. MP7 not with him for d2 stuff plus now... obviously he could be turning on the bus to try to coast to endgame but it feels almost too exposing for that. Haven't looked at him closely but GTH Cuth v, plus mild shade on Rhand earlier. Leaving Seratin/Cobalt and Waco?

Rhand/Cobalt/Waco is probably my bottom tier if I just POE based on old reads and gun-to-head, but probably unintuitively, I'm not super comfortable with it. It feels like three lower-content slots who just fell down because I don't see stuff to lift them up.

 

You're not wrong.
This is kind of a weird question, but: Are you going to make a case towards Keldeo being scum? Any push?

I know you voted on him most of yesterDay, but I don't remember you making any proactive move towards convincing others to join you. And the longer it passes the more I wonder - is this like a placeholder vote? Are you waiting for someone (Me/Rhand) to make a case for you? Or what?
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Noted.

I think I just answered your question. What are your thoughts on that?

Sorry, point me to this post?
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Lol, props for a pairing I hadn't even considered.
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@Rhand what made you think tom was good ML candidate?
Also, 1368 when you get a chance.
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Can you talk more about this section, specifically?

Hm...gonna hold off on a few things till tomorrow.
Ftr, this has already been brought up, but yes: Miner should not make his shot too close to the deadline. We need that time to analyse the results and change the wagons/lynch accordingly if needed.

In the meantime...Cobalt's catching up, fluff's fluff...
@The Waco Kid where are you? You're a hot button topic right now.
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k nightttt

 

Oh, I see. I feel like taken as a whole, his posts have made as much of a case on me as he's made on anyone, and I believe him when he says he feels like he doesn't have the credibility or charisma to push stuff.

Tom's post that I was talking about is:

Less calling out and more like, noting, I guess.
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Miner - you were probably going to already, but I think you should post at least a quick summary of your reads/thoughts before you take the shot, just in case you shoot wrong and die.
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I might need to die at some point before LYLO just because of how many people suspect me. They can't all be wolves...
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Went back over Seratin's posts.

His early SR on tom (along with Gemma) feels alright - I remember I liked his "dance monkeys" phrasing in his early read on tom, for a similar reason to liking Grape's early poking at tom, although this is tempered by the fact that Seratin wasn't as familiar with tom and the read came later.

It's possibly notable that he singles out MP7 and Cuth as early townleans for not really taking an active role - I believe at that point in the game, that read could also have applied to Ter/Osie, Fluff, and fire/Rhand.

By the end of the day, those reads become the more consensus tom/fonti town and Gemma scum because he suspected Tom for one of his posts, and found his explanation of that post satisfactory. If he's mafia then he just realized that Gemma was much more pushable than tom, if he's town he's telling the truth about finding both of them suspicious at first but then accepting tom's explanation... I'm not particularly sold on one over the other? He probably would have realized that Gemma and tom w/w didn't really make sense as either alignment. Although I don't know why he didn't come to the latter conclusion earlier, it doesn't really move the needle for me.

Would appreciate another opinion on his first post from d2 and my and Grape's discussion of it in posts #1342-1349, because I still don't entirely get Grape's point about it.

The negative space thing that I think I mentioned d2 is that he lacks a read on some people despite their playing a role in the interactions he talks about? It's thin. I don't want to read anything into his lack of followup day 2 any more.

That's basically all we have from the slot, so like, idk man. I want to like Cobalt's derping about stuff today, even though I probably shouldn't.

Cobalt I'd really like to hear more from you before EOD.
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I should probably try to read people with more posts.
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I should probably clarify that this doesn't mean that I'm suspecting everyone who suspects me... far from it. If I am wrong on my townreads of them, though, I think enough people SR me that someone will vote wrong in LYLO if we miss twice toDay. So. :|

 

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Oh no I'm sorry.
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Yeah, you're probably right. There's a world where a wolf forgets that mechanic because they'd always die and gets caught by saying "if someone needs to get shot it's me" phrased with the implication that getting shot=dying. But I don't think you did that, unfortunately.
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Again, never a wolf.
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Rhand, what happened between coming into the game with a death wish for Sloth and now where you're like "i'm just getting the vibe that his questions are a bit hollow"?
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I take that back, that was Grape. Still want to know why you're not going after his blood today in at all the same way. Were you okay with his defense walls?

 

I like Waco's posts in ISO more than I remembered liking them in real time.

I think in his early rainbow he'd probably put partners around the middle, which matches with the flips we have/some of my stronger reads, anyway.

The earlier post is like, whatever this could be a distancing interaction because Waco's top pushes / priorities remained Miner's slot and Umami even after he knocked fire down, but I think the second post is pretty not w/w. It's him leading GH to a null or scummier conclusion on fire, when Waco didn't really have to bump fire down his list or talk to GH about it.
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I don't think Rhand ever addressed Sloth's major self-defense post?

 

To be fair, he is voting there today. But I don't really get the progression of sub in>case sloth hard and vote and stay there, just sort of carry on into today without actually pushing any further or like broadening it out beyond talking to sloth himself, and I'd like to find out if anything's changed on the read/why it's as static as it seems to be.
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Keld, I read the conversation you had with grape; I'm not sure what opinions you want to hear? I will say that when I first read the "doesn't want to clear" bit i assumed that meant if he flipped w it would clear miner slot but seems like he was more talking about vote movement. Do you have a specific opinion on Grape's position or thoughts there, or why are you asking about it?

 

Ah, I see. I feel like if the gun was given by a team including mafia Rhand, it's probably not a coincidence that Sloth looked worse based on Rhand's Miner/tom analysis (and that he didn't really reevaluate that, even given evidence that tom was probably less of a fearkill than he seemed to think?) Can I get your thoughts on this part of my read of Rhand:

I don't know if it makes sense. Do you think he's just representing an off-kilter view from the stereotypical mafia thought of "kill unmislynchable people"?