First, before we get started, here are previous threads that deal with the subject, however lightly:

Thoughts on the British Wizarding political system..and war
1984/ V for Vendetta challenge
American Magical Community

OK. Now comes the challenge: the Wizarding Government.

The books seem to suggest wizarding government parodies the parliamentary system of Britain; Xiph0 theorizes it more closely follows the Scottish parliament, whatever it may include, since JKR has devoted her left testicle and placed much of the important canon world there.

Remember however, that the Ministry of Magic is located in London.

So the first question is whether or not the government is bicameral? If it's unicameral, then the only house should be a house elected by the British Wizards and Witches, shouldn't it?

I think stories inclined to deal with heirs, lords and what-not, would be more likely to have a bicameral system, so that there is a House of Lords involved.

But more often than not, they take the judicial system's highest court (the Wizengamot) and instead utilize it as the solitary house and decision-making body. Or sometimes they merely refer to the "Minister's Government" instead of elaborating on whatever that other, lower house, may entail.

So, perhaps for the betterment of fanfiction, their should be a clarification, a DLP Government Clarification.

In such a clarification, this is how I would envision a government of the Wizarding People. I have spent some time thinking about it, but since I'm not fond of British politics and I haven't studied in depth enough, it may be... lacking.

The House of Lords
To be renamed to something like The House of Warlocks or The House of Purebloods (or just House of Lords if you're in a hurry). How would admission be decided? I've thought of that. Which brings me to another question. Would the Crown know about the Wizarding World? Mind you, the Prime Minister knows, so why wouldn't the "Head of State" be aware? (Perhaps she's too religious, keke)

To assist her in an affair that is not as easy as the Muggle World, she would appoint The Lord Advocate, a position devoted to serving the Crown in the Wizarding World. She may not know what the Lord Advocate does. Perhaps she appoints a person to take care of some fictional island in the Pacific that she never visits and it's off the records and whenever she thinks about it, a charm forces her to think of her son Charles taking over. And that person really is just the "stand in" for the Queen in the Wizarding World.

More conflicting issues: the Queen is seen as a divine figure, chosen by God. Would the Purebloods respect her, despite her muggle heritage to be the HEAD OF STATE? Mind you, Merlin served the King of England, so it is not unprecedented or too far a stretch of the mind, and Merlin would/is seen as a figure to admire.

So the Lord Advocate would sign-off on peerage. Some smaller questions concerning the House of Lords would be: lifetime or hereditary? Perhaps a mix of both? Then, how many? Would the House of Lords be 20-30 persons?

Then of course the House of Lords should probably be as ineffective as its Muggle counterpart. It may have been popular and powerful once, but with the Pureblood Movement slowly becoming unpopular, Grindelwald, and especially after Harry's fight with Voldemort, becoming quite dead possibly, the Lords are seen more as remnants. Or maybe not. You have may an heir fic needing of lords direly.

The House of Commons
The second house, the "lower" house, would thus have to parody the House of Commons. 20-30, maybe 40, persons elected in General Elections. This gets interesting, since there may be parties.

I think the two obvious would be "Traditionalist, more Pureblood inclined policy" driven players and the "Modernist, free everything that moves inclined policy" driven players. I think that would lead to a 50-50 split that always makes government ineffective and interesting. Or perhaps the books lead you to believe that there is only one party, highlighting just how stupid and ineffective government can be without anyone to replace the people already in there.

The Minister for Magic
Either way, if not General Elections, how would the Minister be elected? I think Book 6's happenings - that of Fudge being replaced by Scrimgeour - could be explained with a vote of No Confidence and the party finding a new, more desirable head in Rufus Scrimgeour. Or much like Tony Blair, the party saw the potential to lose the next general elections and forced Fudge to resign.

I think I prefer a democratic system and a House of Commons.

If so, then the Minister should appoint cabinet. Should the cabinet be the 7 department heads found in the Ministry of Magic? Should there be more?

Department of Magical Accidents and Catastrophes
Department of International Magical Cooperation
Department of Magical Law Enforcement
Department of Magical Transportation
Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures
Department of Mysteries
Department of Magical Games and Sports

So the Minister would in essence, be appointing two of the most powerful heads. That of the Magical Law Enforcement and the Mysteries department, which seem to control almost everything. He would also thus have the right to remove any head of department and department heads serving under the pleasure of another Minister.

Or perhaps each term comes to an end after each General Election? Would that follow the British government or not?

The Wizengamot
So a House of Lords and House of Commons parodying their British government. Where the differences may start to take form more visibly, is the High Court, that of which, being the Wizengamot.

The Wizengamot seems to consist of Heads of Departments (See Amelia Bones). So the Minister in effect, would not only be appointing heads of powerful departments, but people who would also serve on the highest court. Perhaps the position of Chief Warlock, too, could be appointed by the Minister, though that seems less likely.

Dumbledore was removed from the post in 1995 and restored to it in 1996. While the Minister was responsible for that, was he as directly responsible for it as being the one to say, "You serve at the leisure of the Minister; you are therefore removed from that position." Mind you, Dumbledore was also removed from his position as Mugwump on the IC of W at the same time.

I think for the purpose of creating a government easily understandable (or less if you're the type ) and for a government to make sense in a world caught between traditional and more modernistic values, the position of Chief Warlock and the Wizengamot would not have anything to do with the Minister. The Wizengamot would consist of 9-15 members from the House of Lords.

Meaning, members of the same party or of the same values from the House of Lords could be appointed to the cabinet. Mind you, for those not familiar with British government, this is not a precedent or impossible. A Prime Minister came from the House of Lords once, though I do believe he vacated his peerage and claimed tenure in the House of Commons to be practical. So you could have very powerful people, who serve as Lord, Wizengamot Member and Cabinet.

You could always take the approach that the Wizengamot could be half and half, a sort of inbetween for the two houses who could and should always be at odds. 7 and 7. 7 department heads, 7 lords and a Chief Warlock appointed by the Minister or by the Lord Chancellor of the House of Lords (I assume the Magical Government doesn't have someone like Blair trying to phase out everything in the upper chamber, like the Lord Chancellor )

I think it would be further amusing if the minister to be had to speak to the Queen. I've did some research and apparently the Kissing Hands ceremony seems to be a tradition? The incoming Minister would have to go to the Crown and ask permission to form a government in her name. Or perhaps to the Lord Advocate.

Other things: the Governors of Hogwarts? Lordships? Elected? Minister-appointed? Consulates for other wizarding races? Etc, etc.

So that's my take on the Wizarding Government. Not much different from its Muggle counterpart but I think there's so much stupid shit in fanfiction when it comes to authors and their unrealistic governments that perhaps DLP should help define what it is for future reference. So people struggling can at least have a decent political and government system to fall back upon. I don't claim mine to be so that's why I posed this.

Discuss.

 

~takes a deep breath and promises to try not to be too nationalistic~

Ok, to start with Bio, a very interesting post, well thought out and written.

Personally I think that the Wizengamot is the only House so to speak, and that its more based off the House of Lords in its current form, than off the House of Commons.

Some info about the House of Lords, no longer does it just consist of hereditary peers, but rather it consists mainly of life time peers, who have been given a peerage for service to the country of some sort. This can come in the form of being an important person in the House of Commons for a long time (see Betty Boothroid and Maggie Thatcher), being the head of a major charity, being the head of a national institution (a former head of the NHS for instance if a Lord) those things and more get you a peerage. So, whilst its still the "elite" of society, its a different elite from what it once was. Its now the people who have played an important role in politics one way or another, that sit in the House of Lords.

If this were to carry over to the wizarding world, it would mean that basically anyone could get a seat on the Wizengamot. Dumbledore may have gotten his seat for defeating Grindelwald, perhaps important spell creators and potion makers would sit on it. There would naturally be those who simply bribe whatever committee or office decides who gets a seat on the Wizengamot (ie a Malfoy etc), but they would generally be outnumbered by those who have actually done something of importance to get the seat.

Its probable in this case that there would be certain jobs and positions that automatically entitle you to a seat on the Wizengamot, such as what you define as the Minister's Cabinet. Possibly also the Headmaster of Hogwarts, maybe an elected representative from Hogsmeade and Diagon Alley to represent the interests of the commercial sector, and maybe someone to represent Gringotts.

The Wizengamot being the highest court in the land echoes that function of the House of Lords. They have always been, and actually still are, the highest court in the land. Previously only a Peer would be tried before them, though a High Court judge could, when giving judgement, add to his sentence that the Lords may be appealed to. This would generally only happen if there was a major point of law being debated in the case. When a case went before the Lords, any Lord who wished could sit in, so it was basically a trial by the entire nobility of the country.

Now-a-days its only the so called Law Lords who sit as the highest court, and they are of course required to have law degrees and legal experience (most are actually former High Court judges). They have a sort of similar position to the US Supreme Court. Their main purpose is to define points of law, though criminal cases may still be appealed before them if the High Court allows it.

So, if the Wizengamot echoed the more old fashioned highest court of the land type thing, with all the seated members being able to sit as jury for the Court.

And I would disagree that the House of Lords is ineffective. They are actually more racially and gender diverse than the House of Commons, so they can't be accused of being that traditional. They basically serve as an advisory body to the House of Commons. Where the Commons go over bills quickly and not particularly thoroughly, and delegate them to a small committee for further reading, the House of Lords all go over every sentence of the bill together. Whilst they can stall the passage of bills by sending them back to the Commons, the HoC can force a bill through bypassing the Lords if they really want to.

As for what you said about a wizarding version of the House of Commons, I'm having images of there simply being a magical version of the normal political parties. Labour probably representing the majority of muggle borns, half bloods and other muggle lovers, the Conservatives representing the majority of the Purebloods, and the Liberal Democrats being the middle ground. Then of course you would have the Magical Green Party, and perhaps the Party for Magical Publicans and all sorts of odd parties. I don't think it would work that way, but it could make for an interesting change to Political!Harry, him having to court political parties, rather than the Minister, for permission to do magic during summer and so forth.

I would think that the Minister would probably be someone from the Wizengamot, elected by the Wizengamot. That would of course leave the Department Heads (if you go by my theory mentioned above about the composition of the Wizegamot) available for the position of Minister (could explain how Fudge got it) and also there would be the rest of the so called "elite citizens". The problem with that is that Scrimgeour got elected, and one is left wondering how it happened. Could he perhaps be one of the "elite citizens" as well as Head Auror, or would the Auror's count as an important enough department for their Head to sit on the Wizengamot?

I would think that the Department Heads would be selected by the Minister and would then have to be confirmed by the Wizengamot. I imagine this would basically be used as a way of picking the best of the crop for the next Minister of Magic.

As for the Governors of Hogwarts, I would think that its most probably made up of the biggest donors who have children in the school, or are perhaps alumni of the school. Rather restrictive certainly, as it would basically limit it to the purebloods, apart from the rare muggle born or muggle raised who comes from money on the muggle side. As for their job, I would think they would have to approve any major curriculum changes, new teachers would have to be run by them (though I can see that being more of a formality most of the time, with them just approving the Headmaster's choice), any major changes to the running of the school (ie if the Headmaster wanted to introduce a couple of Diagon Alley for 6th and 7th years it would have to be approved by the Governors), obviously they can approve, appoint and fire the Headmaster, as well as having the authority to close the school at any point.

So, to sum up, whilst your layout doesn't totally jive with my own theories, you've certainly put together a well layed out, well thought out model that should provide a decent structure for an author to use. It allows for just a glancing summary and brief mentions in a fic, or for a really indepth way of doing it.

 

It's entirely possible that after Amelia Bones was killed, Scrimgeour was made Head of the DMLE. There is a time line issue we don't have answers to here, but this seems a reasonable explanation.

 

You have a point, I keep forgetting that Bones was killed. It makes sense that the Head Auror would be made at least the temporary Head of Department.

 

hmmm.... after reading Mordacai's post I think he's hit a lot of the issues about the Wizengamot head on.

Myself, I think the whole magical government structure resides in parallel to the muggle government, however there are some clear differences in how the Magical world has its leaders put into power

First off, let's look at the positions we know about.

The Minister of Magic: MoM
The Minister of Magic (MoM) is not simply the magical equivalent of the Muggle PM. If he were, he would have other ministers appointed by him within the wizarding government. Since he has no other ministers under him, the MoM must hierarchically reside below the PM of the British Government.

The various Department heads:
They exist under the MoM and we've not seen how they are appointed. This is something of a mystery, but they appear to defer to the MoM excessively, and don't seem to use the Wizengamot at all as an overseeing body or as a counter to the Minister's power.

The Wizengamot:
They are the most fuzzy of the lot, they appear to be an analog to the House of Lords, but little beyond that is known.


That said, The MoM appears to have nearly carte blanc to do as he wills, and for the most part runs roughshod over the ministry. The only cases where he appears to not do so is when someone is a department head AND on the Wizengamot.

Now, normally, the british PM is responsible for the appointment of ministers in his government except those filled by the peers from the House of Lords (again a parallel with Bones)... but the Muggle PM in HBP was unaware of the appointment of a new MoM after Fudge was ousted. Therefore the MoM is likely appointed or elected into power... though given the antiquated governmental policies of the Magical world, I'd likely say that the MoM is appointed by the Wizengamot.

That said, the Wizengamot appears to be a parallel structure to the House of Lords since it's makeup appears to be fairly eclectic in nature.

The thing is, both of these structures exist in parallel to the existing political structure of GB... but appear to have no culpability in regards to legal practices in the greater government.

Slavery, open trafficking in illegal goods, and other illegalities that are quashed under a modern GB government where there are checks and balances that allow for rights and the rule of modern law to hold sway, are instead permitted under the Wizarding government, indicating that they simply do not respect the rule of law from the British government or hold themselves above the rule of law.

That said, I'm not sure, does a minister has to have the appointments of department heads have to be ratified by the House of Lords? I don't think they do.

If this is the case, that would explain precisely why Fudge is so powerful politically. He'd have essentially no checks to his power because functionally he has all the power of a PM (within the wizarding world) but no requirements in how and who he selects for what would otherwise be ministers under him, but are simply named department heads...except of course in the case were Wizengamot members (Peers) take over certain posts as department heads.

I think it's pretty clear why the Magical world's government is riddled with corruption, they have a hodgepodge of pieces of the real world government, but with personal whimsy and greed standing in for the rule of law or common sense.

 

I've always considered the "Expecto Patronus: or How the Wizarding World Really Works" essay to have an interesting description on the ministry and the Wizengamot.

It can be found here:
http://pharnabazus.livejournal.com/715.html

 

It's an interesting read, but shows the author's lack of understanding of the nuts and bolts of how the Machine of State runs.

The very existence of the Government with it's ability to monitor underage magic use, apparition, trade, licensing, law enforcement and the rest precludes the anachronistic patronage system that the author puts forward. The wheels of government are fueled by and turn on financial expenditures, and large, well developed, social services structures require extensive and unified funding mechanisms. A patronage system precludes the existence of such a thing because it requires a central taxation system whereby extensively developed societal fixtures like DML with its Aurors, the dept of Mysteries, and departments like McNair and Arthur Weasley work in, are funded outside of individual control. If it was as shot through with division and fiefdoms based on personalities as the author implies, noone would allow for central social services to exist outside of their personal control.

No, The Wizarding world's government is still tethered by its financial underpinnings in a semi modern form of government... not a feudalistic model in any form. The structures in place and their monolithic nature within the story simply preclude such a thing.

 

Xiph, the world must be ending, I actually find myself agreeing with a lot of what you just said. Tis a sad day when that happens

Garrett, what gives you the idea that the magical government has anything to do with the muggle government. Most wizards despise muggles in general, how do you think they would feel about a muggle who would feel obligated to try and interfere, ie a politician. The MoM could not exist below the PM, its just not feasible. There are so many things in the magical world that would not be if the PM was the ultimate power.

Your point about slavery, don't we theoretically enslave horses and cows? Don't we enslave wild animals? Thats how the wizarding world views house elves, which is who I assume you are refering to when you mention slavery.

And also Garrett, I would think that the Wizengamot can exert some influence over the Minister if it wants to, and probably the International Confederation of Wizards could as well. I would think that the reason Fudge could do as he pleased, was that he rose to power on the crest of the wave of euphoria that followed Voldemorts downfall. He probably made a lot of friends by making the right promises and comments at the time, he was really the consummate politician and I reckon he got himself a lot of influence whilst he was really popular and it endured enough that he could call in enough favours "for old times sake" for him to have his way.

He also had the press on his side. We're introduced to what? 3 different newspapers; the Prophet which appears to be a tabloid/daily news type thing, the Quibbler which is for odd news and strange things and so forth (more comedy than anything else), Witch Weekly which is a womens magazine with all that that means. I don't think I missed any. One proper daily news paper. Obviously the government will exert at least a modicum of control over it if there is only one. That means the Minister could portray his own side to the wizarding public very easily. No one else could really.

And on the offhand, is Garrett British or American? His location says US but...

 

First off... Xiph0... fuck you sideways with a shotgun, you complete and utter dipshit. You can cram that Neocon crap where the sun doesn't shine. Politically I'm a libertarian, you monumental jackass.

Second... I was going to reem you out point by point... but then I realized something.

You fucking can't seem to read what someone posts.

Now... go back and read my post AGAIN... only this time pay attention when I mention how the wizarding world government exists in PARALLEL to the muggle government... (not beneath it). Using the muggle parliamentary form of government as a model since JKR is using terminologies for government positions based on her home culture.

By way of pointing it out to you specifically where I say that...here's the quote... bolded for your inbred and obviously developmentally challenged pleasure

Now... in addition... concerning the rule of law.

The british wizards consider themselves british, and reside within the borders of the UK... Fuck, even their fucking sports teams for the world cup were nationalistically based. Therefore they are obligated by residency to follow the laws of that nation. Clearly they don't do that regarding the 1833 abolition of slavery act since it didn't specify race... simply that it stated that slavery in any form was then illegal.

-Love and Kisses -Garret.


Now... to reply to Mordecai

Well... I live in the US... but I did have 2 and a half years that I lived in Bedfordshire. Loved the UK... traveled extensively. But, I by no means claim anything beyond a reasonably passing familiarity with your nation and its political issues... any more than a UK native would be familiar with our governmental issues if they lived in the States for the same period.

That said... moving on.

Garrett, what gives you the idea that the magical government has anything to do with the muggle government.

Well, lets see... The fact that In HBP Fudge went to the prime minister to act as a liason and to prep the PM for the arrival of the MoM. Then how in PoA that the wizarding government clearly got in contact with the muggle government to broadcast info in the muggle media about Sirius Black escaping. I suppose I could continue to add items, like them clearly staying in contact enough to immediately get the "flying car" new stories in a few hours, but that's just news... I'm sure if pressed I could point out other clear governmental ties such as how muggleborns are able to attend wizarding schools and their parents not have truancy officers come round. Simply put, there's clear evidence that the Muggle and the Wizarding Government have ties throughout the series. Not extensive ones obviously, but clearly they exist.


Most wizards despise muggles in general, how do you think they would feel about a muggle who would feel obligated to try and interfere, ie a politician.

You tell me.. why would they have anti mugglebaiting laws and a whole department of the ministry dedicated specifically to dealing with what Arthur Weasley does if they did despise muggles the way you're saying? Specific people among both pure bloods and the non purebloods dislike muggles...but claiming they all or most despise them is factually inaccurate. Please don't paint the whole of the wizarding community with a brush of hatred.


The MoM could not exist below the PM, its just not feasible. There are so many things in the magical world that would not be if the PM was the ultimate power.


Damn ... I didn't think you'd miss the point too... re-read the post... pay attention to the PARALLEL comment. Fudge = The magical equivalent of the PM (possibly plus all the other ministers in the House of Commons) Clearly the Mom isn't selected by the PM... and that was a point I was making to clarify the parallel nature. Not that the Wizarding world is beneath the muggle one... simply that it exists in tandem and alongside it.

Your point about slavery, don't we theoretically enslave horses and cows? Don't we enslave wild animals? Thats how the wizarding world views house elves, which is who I assume you are refering to when you mention slavery.

Oh come on... let's not get into some sophomoric debate on the moral equivalences. Moral Equivalence is a fucking logical fallacy based on Begging the Question.

When was the last time you ordered your animal to make you breakfest, press your suit and change the nappies of your offspring? Houseelves are clearly sentient, they are clearly intelligent, and they clearly enslaved. I'm not making a moral judgement on whether it's wrong or not... I'm simply pointing out that the Magical world clearly condones slavery as a institutional practice. Something that most civilized nations take to be a sign of barbarity.

And also Garrett, I would think that the Wizengamot can exert some influence over the Minister if it wants to, and probably the International Confederation of Wizards could as well.

A very reasonable arguement, and one I wholeheartedly agree with.

I would think that the reason Fudge could do as he pleased, was that he rose to power on the crest of the wave of euphoria that followed Voldemorts downfall.

I donno about that... (That's me being nice and not just saying you're wrong ) according to the HP Lexicon Fudge was minister of magic from 1990 to june 1997. Last I checked... Voldemort was defeated oct 31 1981. 9 years of euphoria? I think not.

 

Below in the position means he is lesser in rank.

Moral Equivalencies or not Garrett its a similar situation. They view house elves as beasts, nothing more, so they are treated as such.

Yes, ok there are some ties to the muggle government that allow for communication and perhaps the manipulation of records, but I would think they are of the level designed to allow for increased security and secrecy for the Wizarding World, nothing more.

They heard about the flying car quickly because its obviously magical and being seen by muggles.

The informed the muggle world of Sirius Black because there was no telling where he would go or where he would hide. There are maybe at most a few hundred thousand wizards in Britain (if there is a specific figure I don't know, sorry) so having the several million muggles on hand to keep an eye out for the convicted criminal would be intelligent.

And Fudge coming through to act as liason for MoM and the PM, well if your going to have a war in someones back garden, its only polite to let them know, isn't it? Depending on how far Voldemort goes, direct influence from the PM's office might be required to make any compromising paper work "disappear" or for someone who's mutter to stop mutter so to speak.

So all their contact with the Government is for their own benefit and security.

The same is true with the muggle baiting stuff, its to protect the security of the wizarding world. If people started to turn up with kettle bites in their arses, don't you think the muggle population might get slightly suspicious?

And you'll note I didn't say Fudge immediately became Minister, only that he started to rise to power. He was a Junior Under Minister in the Department for Magical Catastrophes when the war ended, so I reckon if he made nice with the right people and made the right promises he could have started his rise towards the office of Minister around then.

 

You'll notice that that was the initial discussion of the FORMAT of the government, discussing the facts as presented in the book. That whether or not it might be an extension of the greater british government hierarchy had to be examined because the MoM is a Ministry... implying it exists as a component of a larger government. A Ministry is defined (as a word) as being a department of a government... not a government itself.

Clearly however, the ministry FUNCTIONS as the defacto government of all magical beings in the UK... it's as though its a specific sub or more accurately parallel government set aside for magical beings. Thus saying it's part of the main governing body is both incorrect and correct... because it acts like a complete Mini-government within the UK in general, and that the functions of that government appear to be entirely self contained.

I then qualified this, pointed out that since there are no other minister level posts in the magical government, that in the Wizarding world, Fudge was basically the single all encompassing minister over the whole government. Or more specifically, that the reason the wizarding gov't might be so corrupt is that Fudge is the PM, the Defense minister, the Minister without portfolio, the Health Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and all the rest... all rolled up into one. and thus there's effectively no procedural checks to his power. Imagine Tony Blair with complete and total control of the House of Commons and with no other ministers constraining him at all... that's basically what I see Fudge as being.

However, from HBP we know that a vote of no confidence ousted him. The question is, if there are no other minister level positions in the Magical government, how was such a vote held. Perhaps the Wizengamot? I'd say that's the most likely source, but that's just a guess. And that is precisely why I wholeheartedly agreed with your comments on the Wizengamot having some sort of power or influence over him.

No, Mordacai, I 'm sorry, but you're incorrect, they are not similar.

But more to the point, Moral equivalence is a logical fallacy...thus it's a moot point to argue that enslavement of a sentient creature which can understand the concept of liberty and freedom is the same thing as an animal which arguably cannot. Posing the argument, that they are, is trying to prove a negative to be a positive. But, in the interests of clarity I'll illustrate precisely why this is so.

The key point here is that both the wizards and the house elves agree that the terminology of their captivity is that of "Slavery". This somatic is important because it differentiates a state of being enslaved from simply that of chattel or property. And since slavery was abolished throughout the UK by the 1833 Abolition of Slavery Act, owning slaves within the borders of the UK is a crime.

That said, Animals are held as chattel not as slaves, and slaves are essentially different from animals in that while both can provide labour, slaves are further capable of providing "services"... something that animals are incapable of. Services require cogitative thought and actions motivated by creativity and reason, and thus since animals cannot provide services, slaves and animals cannot be equated.

Well, there we go then... I've proven I was correct and that ties exist.

But again, you're assuming that the wizarding world wants nothing to do with the muggle world, making the assumption that they have no further ties beyond the purely accidental and some intentional information sharing. I completely repudiate this and direct you to consider that economic ties between the magical and non magical Britain must ALSO exist. Where do you think Wizards get their trunks, their food, their beds, their sheets, their pillows, their shoes, their cloth and all the other things that make life work? It's been pointed out that house elves do the cooking and cleaning and all manner of household chores... if the food was conjured, why conjure uncooked food? Why not just cut out the middleman of the houseelves and have the food ready to eat the moment it's conjured?
The answer is; they don't. The food, the cloth, the wood, the leather and all the various sundries of life are likely all purchased in raw form from farmers, smelters, miners, fishermen, and other mundane professions and brought into the magical world through trade. I'd put it to you that muggleborn and half blood parents are a significant portion of the trade sources that fuel the continued operation of the magical world, but saddly there's no proof of this in the books. However I'd say that such avenues are the most likely source for such goods. That indicates some level of trade exists between the magical and non magical world to provide the various sundries needed to make life go, and that means government involvement at some level. I mean I just don't see wizards going about farming and weaving and doing carpentry or for that matter mining or harvesting wood for the various raw materials they need to make things. Hell, in PoA JKR even gave us an example of the conversion rate between pounds and Galleons... indicating that monetary conversion exists and is commonplace. This is what I'm talking about when I say that the nuts and bolts of state are a lot more complex then people generally think. Certain things make the engine of state move, and those things are trade, communication, military force, and social expectations. And on that same venue, how could halfbloods or mixed marriages come about if the wizarding world is half so insular as you're claiming? If it were, muggles and wizards would not be in contact enough to intermarry.

I don't think there is a specific figure on wizarding population... mainly because it's easier on JKRs part just to say "the wizarding world exists... and it functions for its citizenry. I'll leave the nitty gritty nitpicking of how it works a mystery though. Mainly because I'm not writing a economic sciences book." "

Yes, but then again it's implied that all PMs are kept apprised of the existence of the magical world. The PM at the time in HBP knew about it I seem to recall. If they only did this when a war was ongoing, then the last several PMs would have never been contacted now would they? (since no such war was ongoing) During their holding of the position, no such war was ongoing, but clearly as detailed in HBP the outgoing PM knew about the magical world.

But regardless, they clearly communicate with the muggle government.

I disagree. Trade only takes place when mutual benefits are felt by all parties. We've seen no indication that the wizarding world exists in a trade vacuum or culture vacuum, and we've seen clear evidence that communication, trade, and even some cultural adoption of technology (wizarding wireless) with muggles for essentials and luxury goods does take place (The Hogwarts express most certainly was not built by wizards)

It's the fact that "muggle baiting" as a concept exists at all that is the issue here. It's not all about the Statute of secrecy so much though.

Okay, consider.... if all they were concerned about was maintaining the Statute of secrecy, there'd only be a department which repaired the damage and obliviated the muggles... and of course issued fines to the involved wizard for breaking the statute. They'd not specifically make laws for "muggle baiting" if they though about muggles the way you seem to imply (that they're little more than animals). Instead it'd simply be a violation of the statute of secrecy. The fact that they SPECIFICALLY created a class of crime to cover attacks on muggles means that you're wrong... that they do not consider muggles to be little more than animals, and in fact recognize the rights of muggles to be free of magical harassment above and beyond the simple breaking of the statute of secrecy.

As I said... it was 9 years between when Voldemort was in power and when Fudge was elected. In a reasonably intelligent society Fudge would not have been able to ride the same issue of being a junior minister that long, particularly when you consider that Junior ministers are below department heads within the UK government. That said, once people are in the wizarding world long enough, they seem to drop IQ points like mad and become rather simplistic in their thought processes. So perhaps it is possible that he rode the same issue for 9 years...

 

If one were to subscribe to the theory that there is only a fairly small number of wizarding people in the wizarding world, then it could theoretically be possible that the Ministry of Magic is not a complete government. After all, do you need a Department of Health when you have but 1 hospital, or a Department of Education when you have 1 school?

On the other hand, it does have the various Departments, Law Enforcement/Magical Transportation/Magical Creatures etc, that are required. So in that way it IS a proper government with various departments and department heads playing the role that Ministers do in Cabinet.

However, I seriously doubt that the Ministry of Magic is in anyway subservient to the Muggle one. As for them obeying muggle laws because they live in Britain and claim to be British, well...I doubt that. They view themselves as the superior culture. They think they have the strongest and the oldest culture, and thus the real culture. This means that they would not be subservient to the laws of a lesser culture, in their eyes. An example would be Nazi Germany. Why would the Nazi's obey the religious laws of the Jews, they viewed themselves as the true culture and civilization of Germany, so they would believe they made the laws that they would obey.

And, whilst I haven't looked it up the dictionary, wouldn't the definition of slavery be something like "involunatary servetitude" or something? The majority of house elves seem very happy with their place in society, taking part in it in a very voluntary fashion. So is it really slavery?

Calm down darling, me admitting that you might be slightly correct is no reason go start fapping on the keyboard.

Trade will exist, but its most likely to be in raw materials. Do you honestly think the majority of wizards would by something made by muggles over something made by another wizard? So things like lumber and iron and so forth will be bought, but wizards will make all the actuall products, trunks/beds/pillows etc etc etc.

I'm not saying the wizarding world is completely insular, I'm just saying their are highly protective of their secrets. Their main reason for having anything formal to do with the muggles is to help protect their secrets. Trade could be carried out secretly, through large corporations with liberal use of memory charms when people become too curious about where all the raw materials actually go.

Obviously muggles and wizards interact. You do realise how small Britain actually is? Hogsmeade is the only all wizard settlement for a reason, there ain't space for another basically. At least, there isn't space in a place where muggles won't eventually want to build and thus get curious if they are unable to for some reason. Most witches and wizards will live amongst the muggles to an extent. The Weasleys live just outside a village, near a few other wizarding families, 3 or 4 or something. Is it really a great stretch of the imagination to suppose that this set up might actually be quite common amongst the less traditional old families. Not necessarily purebloods, but those with a long magical tradition on at least one side every generation. Perhaps it started when the villages were very isolated in the middle ages, and magic hadn't been outlawed. Magic people would set up home just outside a muggle settlement, so they could get what materials they needed, but they would want other magical families for company, so groups of them would set up near by.

There would of course be people who live in the towns and cities, but I reckon it would be easier to live a fairly magical lifestyle out in the countryside than in a busy urban area. And location doesn't really matter, what with floo and apparation. So in general mingling wouldn't be too uncommon.

I didn't mean to imply that the only reason Fudge went to the PM was that there was a war. All PM's would have to know of the existence of the wizarding world, in case such a thing as the Sirius Black thing happened. Something where muggle awareness was required but high up influence was required for it to safely happen. And as you've so capably pointed out the wizarding world to at least a small extent does require to the muggle world to continue its existence, so what better way to cause problems for a rival wizarding nation than to kill off the muggle head of state.

I think the muggle baiting laws are probably viewed similarly as the cruelty to animal laws are by a lot of wizarding raised people. When you look at a cat, you find it faintly amusing, perhaps a bit cute, possibly slightly intimidating. That'll be how people raised in the wizarding world will look at muggles, slightly amusing, a bit quaint and also fairly intimidating. You wouldn't want to kill a cat unless it was violent towards you, or rather, most people wouldn't. The same with wizards towards muggles. They don't want to kill muggles, but they don't view them as exactly equal beings. There are of course some wizards who want to kill the muggles, like there are some people who want to kill all the cats in the world.

And I didn't say he rode the one issue, I meant that he capitalised on it straight off and gained influence. I imagine he quite probably became a Department Head, possibly law enforcement if thats where Magical Catastrophes comes under, with the next Minister and then became Minister after that. He won't have rode the one single issue, but he could quite possibly have used it as a spring board. He would become Head of Magical Law Enforcement due to his promises of rounding up the remaining Death Eaters, a firm stance against them, against anti-muggle behaviour etc A firm stance against anything that threatened the stability of the wizarding world. What do people just out of a war crave most but stability.

For becoming Minister he probably capitalised on his successes as Head of MLE and played up his important role during the war of ensuring that the muggles didn't find out about the wizarding world, no matter how foul an action Voldemort had committed. He would probably push the point that this meant he would be able to provide a safe, secure future for the wizaring world, hidden well from the muggle population, safe from dissidents inside it. That could be the reason he fought against the idea of Voldemort returning, because he viewed Harry and Dumbledore as dissidents, and if he had promised to keep the wizarding world safe from them then he might feel obliged to discredit them.

 

Just a quick post on the cat/mugglebaiting example: Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that just like there are people in everyday life who prefer to kick a cat rather than pet a cat, there are wizards who would rather jinx a muggle than associate with them in any way.

I know wizards are shown to be able to create space, but would that work on open land? I always assumed it had something to do with multiplying the available space within a solid boundary, ie walls. I suppose one might argue that you could set up "magical walls" with ward stones of some sort on the outskirts, but if one goes down that route, the it can probably be assumed that ward stones are a big deal kind of thing, and so couldn't just be lifted and moved when even more space was needed.

A sort of canon proof of that, is the fact that Diagon Alley exists and the Ministry of Magic is in London. If open air spaces could be expanded endlessly without problem, wouldn't the wizarding world basically exist in Hogsmeade and Hogwarts and no where else except a few small families who perhaps do a great deal of the trading for the magical world.

There are charms to prevent curiousity, its just a matter of how effective they are. I mean, if some civil servant in London tells his computer to locate a spread of land that has no settlements on it, is stable enough to build on and is not too far away from major infrastructure, would the charms stop the machine from pumping out the location of the wizarding settlement to the civil servant? And if they didn't, would they affect the civil servant, because he isn't curious about anything to do with magical or the magical settlement, he honestly believes that there is nothing there and that there is nothing to be curious about there. Wouldn't that sort of deep rooted belief that he has nothing to be curious about, stop the charms from making him ignore the land?

Of course all we can do on that point is speculate, since it leads into a debate about how sentient magic is.

I would agree with you about the Blacks, they probably a had a country house type thing, but couldn't be arsed to move when the muggles started to build up around them. This possibly supports my point that if the muggles aren't curious about the magical aspect and don't believe in magic, then hiding charms won't affect them. So the Blacks may just have put a glamour over their house to make it resemble the others and that was that.

About the killing the muggle head of state thing, I was thinking along the lines that the wizarding head of state will have loads of magical security, whereas if the muggle one doesn't he makes fairly easy pickings for hostile wizards. The old apparate in, send a reducto/avada kedavra/over powered tickling charm at the head of state and apparate out plan.

 

What I find strange is how the Auror force ie Law Enforcement is subject to the political Ministry of Magic which is essentially the House Of Commons, and the people they bring in are judged before the House of Lords equivalent in the Wizengamot which itself is a political body. How the heck can anything brought before the Wizengamot make sense, when the system is based on a political body passing judgement on criminal law cases brought before them by a law enforcement group totally controlled by another political body (perhaps the same people comprise both political bodies?). If anyone can follow my logic then you can see that everyone brought before the Wizengamot should automatically be found guilty. Isn't the semblance of a legal system removed from both the political and law enforcement systems evident in most western nations? Even the US law system, screwed up enough to throw in the religious system into the cluster fuck, at least gives occasional glimpses of the separation of politics and law.

 

We just have to assume that British wizards didn't heard about Montesquieu and his theory of separation of powers. For them this system probably is appropriate. In my opinion, Wizengamot is more like old tribe's councils than modern parliaments - it wields both judicial and legislative power. Minister acts as the executive of it's decision (but he's also a member of it and probably has a strong position within it - when he wanted to discredit Potter, he caused that H. had a full criminal trial).

Also, considering that British population of wizards (it's something around twenty thousand, right? I'm too lazy to check.) is rather small there isn't a need to develop a separate judicial body - smaller crimes (ie cases of the under-age sorcery) are dealt by the head of the MLE and ones that are more important are dealt by Wizengamot.

Naturally it favours purebloods, who have ties within a Ministry and Wizengamot itself, and since they have a power to make new laws, they don't see a reason to change it.

Muggleborns were probably trying to change a way the wizarding world works, but since they have a little political power, it stays like it is now. (Who would listen to a lowly mudblood, after all).

E.A.

 

Liberalistic muggle concepts apply to a conservative wizarding world? Not hardly.

And how do you get the idea that the Ministry of Magic resembles the House of Commons. Do you even know the British government system? STFU, the House of Commons is a chamber of debate over law and policy. The civil service is what the Ministry of Magic resembles.

And naturally it favours purebloods, it favours those who take the time to understand the system. Doesn't any legal system favour those who understand it? The majority of muggle borns and muggle raised don't try to understand the system, just try to change it. How would the American public look upon a bunch of...say arabs who come in and try to get the political system to change to reflect what they're used to? They wouldn't be very happy would they?

Muggleborns don't want to even try and adapt, they want the wizarding world to adapt and change for them. They want the wizarding world to become the muggle world. Thats where the hostility comes from.