Yes, we know. And, if you'd paid any attention to this thread, you'd realize that Taure's been arguing that "Clear your mind" is enough. That's what almost all of his arguments have been.

If you're going to contribute to the argument, do try to keep up with it.

EDIT: Also, Occlumency is spelled with the L before the U.

 

The more I visit this site, the more plot holes open up. Dumbledore was worried that Voldemort might possess Harry; why didn't he tell him?

A good deal of people seemed to know it. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to assume there's a book on it somewhere, or just a book on magic involving the mind.

But of course, Rowling needed Harry to run off to the Ministry, so who cares about a dozen or so plot holes?

Not to mention her inability to write credible romances.

Has anyone attempted to rewrite the series with an ounce of common sense?

 

JKR made Draco pathetic whenever she needed him to be pathetic, and competent whenever she needed him to be competent. Such things were by far her worst trait as a writer.

Like so much of her work, there is no consistency or real character development, and therefore no true answer in canon. In my opinion, he should have been fatally sodomized by Fluffy as a first year and be done with it.

 

Wall of text coming up...

Actually, in the Order only Snape and Dumbledore knew it. So not really "a good deal of people".

I see no evidence to the idea that most Aurors know it.

I did. Magic. Certainly repetition is needed in magic, but Harry's Occlumency lessons were not without repetition. I am objecting not to the need for repetition, but the need for theory to be explained an applied. We have seen many cases of magic where magical knowledge, or instinct, has been intuitive to a person rather than explained.

This is the same with several Muggle disciplines. You mentioned dancing. Many people can dance fairly well without having any instruction whatsoever. Many people can sing quite well, even without their voices having been trained.

Nor is Occlumency. The two are very similar. Your willpower against your opponent's.

Meditation in real life is an obscure and difficult skill to learn. That does not mean there is a huge amount of theoretical knowledge one has to know before it is mastered. It just means that it takes a long time for you to get good at it.

Harry's instructions for Sectumsempra were even less than those he had for Occlumency. One word. At least for Occlumency he got three (ignoring for the moment that that's an exaggeration: Snape did in fact tell him a fair amount of other information).

And Harry does have prior skills that are transferable to Occlumency. We're told by Snape that it is similar to resisting the Imperius curse, which Harry had experience at, and we can reason through logic that it was similar to the Priori Incantatum.

No. Muggles can clear their minds too you know. I'm fairly good at stopping myself from thinking, since I do it every night to help get to sleep. I don't use any techniques, I just stop myself from thinking. It's not that hard. Clearing your mind is all there is to clearing your mind. Either you can do it or you can't, though practice helps.

Then you haven't been reading my posts. They both have willpower as the basis for success. Harry willed the golden beat to the other side. Harry's strong will allowed him to break the Imperius curse. Harry's strong will should have, had he worked at it, been able to clear his mind and overcome a Legilimens' will.

Clearing his mind.

Nor do I, but that's because Harry is an idiot who refused to learn anything from Snape. We've seen it with Potions. Harry is not unskilled at it, but with Snape in the room he deliberately is objectionable. Yes, Snape is inflammatory, but I think most of us have had inflammatory teachers before that didn't like us. Harry goes out of his way to stir things up.

Maybe, but since DH I'm more inclined to believe Snape had Harry's best interests at heart. That's what his whole life was dedicated to after all. He just refused to let Harry know until his death. WE may not like it, but there was a reason why Harry gave one of his children Snape's name.

No it's not. As I said above, I have direct experience with clearing my mind. Empirical evidence =/= conjecture.

You're confusing it being simple in theory to being easy to learn. Yes, it's extremely simple. But to get good at it, you still have to have a lifetime's practice at it.

Maybe, but once you add magic to the mix we can't really tell.

Correction: from Harry's point of view - the point of view from which the HP stories are told - Snape has been perceived to be horrible to Harry all his life. In reality, as we discovered from Snape's memories in DH, it was possibly Snape who was on Harry's side more than any other. Certainly more than Dumbledore. He's still an unpleasant guy, but I don't think you can argue that Snape had anything less than Harry's best interests at heart after DH.

 

To quote your own statement, `pure conjecture'. There is nothing to prove that Bellatrix is brutal while she is teaching Draco. In fact, she seems to have some loyalty to her sister, Narcissa, at least - remember Narcissa actually hexes Bella, and turns her back on her sister with full assurance that she would not be cursed back (Spinner's End, HBP). Given Bellatrix's capabilities, it is very likely that she would probably be able to outduel her sister.

Further, considering that she wanted Draco to succeed - she does speak of Draco's courage and resource - it is very likely that she indeed did teach Draco Occlumency properly. Is there any proof that Bella went around crucio-ing her sister and her family?

As for Snivellus, he hated Harry, and had no desire to teach - even the manipulative old coot admits as much in the end. He simply utilised the opportunity to hurt and humiliate Harry.
Regards,
Maidros

 

Hindu/Jain/Buddhist monks would be appalled to hear that meditation cannot be taught in a number of ways. In fact, I know for sure that meditation is taught in different ways to different people, based on their temperament, and abilities. There is certainly much more theory behind meditation than saying `clear your mind' - there are dozens of works on meditation that teach you many methods by means of which one can achieve that peace of mind. Claiming that it is purely a function of will power is utterly false.

Your attempts to draw a parallel from your life are also fallacious. The fact that you can meditate without being taught is no proof that there is nothing to teach. To give you a counter example from Potterverse itself, Harry was very good at flying on his very first attempt. This does not mean that there is nothing to teach about flying or that it is purely instinctive. In fact, the presence of Madam Hooch argues otherwise. That certain people are good at certain things is well known, but it in no way argues that there is nothing to teach about a particular discipline, just because some people can do it without being taught.

Snivellus saw easily that the lessons were not working - he simply made no attempt to change his methods, or try anything new once he saw the lessons were useless. Did he really try to teach Harry? The answer is an emphatic no.
Regards,
Maidros

 

Snape was supposed to be TEACHING Harry a Very Difficult skill, at the orders of AD. Snape's chosen methods were failing. Abysmally. The intelligent, the *practical* solution is to try a different method. Snape didn't.

Taure might be right - maybe there isn't another method to learning Occlumency. If there is a different technique, one that might have worked for Harry, would AD have tried teaching him?

Just like all the Gryffs, and probably the 'Puffs and most of the Ravens, Harry suffered in Snape's classes. Their antagonistic relationship is ENTIRELY Snape's fault. From Day One, Snape had used his position as teacher and as Dumbledore's triumphant example of Evil Redeemed to abuse the students. If you think that Snape was on Harry's side all along, because of Lily, then I can make a case that he deliberately tortured Harry because of James.

A first-rate teacher has many different techniques to be used on different student personalities, to engage and encourage them. A good teacher likes teaching, patiently explaining and giving different examples Making Sure that diligence will result in learning. A decent teacher knows the subject, answers questions, and firmly discourages unsafe actions, never playing favorites. Does anyone see Snape here?

* Drifting back toward topic *
WAS Draco Malfoy a star at Potions, or was he teacher's pet? Did Malfoy work hard, or did he just work the Sly system? Snape's idea of "teaching techniques" certainly don't seem aimed at making the Slytherins into good students. Or Potions Masters. As Draco's godfather, perhaps he tutored Draco on side during summer.

Does anyone remember Malfoy blowing up his cauldron? In McGonagall's first class, Hermione was the first to Transmute her matchstick. Did JKR say who was next? What about Flitwick? Wingardium Leviosa! Would Draco be top student if it weren't for Hermione?

 

Maidros: Your post is fraught with confusion. You appear to think we're discussing meditation rather than Occlumency.

Certainly there are techniques that can help, such as the whole focusing on a candle flame thing, but in the end all these techniques are superfluous. A technique cannot be taught: I can say "think of the flame of a candle" now and you can do it, but you're not meditating. Meditation comes only through practice. In other words technique does not a meditator make. It is not a necessary part of the process.

There is a lot more to meditation that just clearing you mind, yes, but meditation is not Occlumency.

I never said I could meditate without being taught. I said I could clear my mind without being taught. There is a massive difference between clearing your mind and meditation. Meditation enters your mind into a deep, coma-like state and changes the very chemical processes that are occurring in the brain to the point where it can be perceived as a religious experience. Clearing your mind, which is what Occlumency is, is simply the absence of thought.

I would say that it does. After that first lesson, Harry never had another flying lesson again.

Flying appears to be purely instinctive. Years later, Neville and Hermione are still useless at flying, even with the benefit of being taught. Years later, Harry is still an amazing flier, even though he hasn't been taught at all.

The only reason why they didn't work was because Harry didn't practice. If he had practiced between lessons, he would have improved.

Did Harry really try to learn? The answer is an emphatic no.

I prefer a different definition: a teacher is someone who teaches. Snape taught, Harry refused to learn. Perhaps this is an idealistic difference between us. I think that a student is responsible for their own education, whereas you believe that students should be micromanaged by their teachers and spoon-fed everything they need.

And now I shall turn the argument round and attack rather than just defending.

What is there in the books, at all, that suggests that there is anything more to Occlumency than what we (and Harry) have been told: simply clearing your mind?

 

Nothing other than the fact that "Clear your mind" doesn't make a lot of sense to ME. From what I remember, Snape gave the command, then attacked. My kneejerk reaction parallels being told to relax by someone who hates me, and then before I can even try, the jerk hits me. Wouldn't a flinch be inevitable? By Book5, the it's-Snape-it's-just-a-way-to-hurt-me pattern was well set. There was no trust between them; if anything, Harry regarded Snape as an enemy. It's weird the way AD could manipulate Harry so beautifully, and yet the old man never realised that the boy was sabotaging the lessons deliberately.

.

We are dealing with children here - they are strongly affected by the people around them, and ruled by emotion. Snape started sabotaging Harry's self-confidence (and his willingness to learn ANYTHING from Snape) when the boy was ELEVEN. At the upper levels of schooling, when the child is near-adult and older, then reason would provide discipline even in a hostile environment. Snape made Potions about as hostile as the law would allow. The resentment and distrust carried over. Of course.

 

He's a fag. End of story.

 

And I'm saying that as mean as Snape was, blame still rests with Harry for letting it get to him. He could have been the better man and ignored Snape's jabs at his father, focusing on what was important: learning Potions. Hermione managed to do just that, and Snape was arguably even harsher to Hermione than Harry (maybe she reminded him of Lily?). But Harry had to enter into a petty vendetta rather than taking the big picture into account.

Once again, like seemingly every other discussion on DLP, the conclusion always seems to rest around Harry's character being entirely unsatisfactory. Hermione made a better hero than he did. And that's when you know you're in trouble.

 

There are plenty of exercises that help you clear your mind before you meditate. As for meditation itself, I must completely disagree with you. Clearing your mind may be the first step, but it is the most important step. You cannot meditate if you cannot clear your mind. And, no - clearing your mind is not simply a function of will power. Some people force themselves not to think, others relax enough for the mind to drift into a void, and yet others focus on one entity (your candle flame, for instance) excluding all others. So - no - clearing your mind is not done in one way. Is there any evidence that Snivellus taught any of the techniques? No - he simply said, `clear your mind' and repeatedly flung the legilimens curse at him.

I am pointing out to you that there is a lot more to clearing your mind than simply a function of will power. It is done in plenty of ways.

That is the crux of the problem, as I see it. Just because you can do something without being taught in no way implies that others cannot be taught to do it. For instance, Functional Analysis is a very complex and obscure brancy of mathematics, but I find it very easy. This does not mean that I am a great mathematician, nor does it mean that just because I found it intuitive, others who do not find it intuitive cannot be taught the subject. Different people need to be taught the same subject in different ways. A good and motivated teacher would have tried it. Snivellus never tried anything other than `clear your mind'. Did he tell Harry how to clear his mind? There are many many ways of calming one's mind.

Again, it might not be necessary for Harry to attend another class, and yes, Neville and Hermione were never good at it. But does it mean that no one benefitted from the flying lessons? How about those who are mediocre, who, if taught properly, would be good, if not great, fliers. Surely, the presence of Hooch as a flying instructor argues that those lessons benefitted some at least? In fact, Hooch was going around teaching people how to mount brooms, and how to grip them, and so forth. Even in a more or less instinctive art like flying, she was able to impart basic skills, and techniques. But did Snivellus even try anything? Unfortunately, the answer is no.

Do you imagine that everyone knows instinctively how to clear their minds? Snivellus never taught anything about clearing his mind.

What, I pray you, did Snape teach? Other than three words, and mind raping Harry?

Unfortunately, even to clearing your mind, there is a lot more than just those words. Snivellus simply did teach any of it.
Regards,
Maidros

 

Yes, given enough time I should imagine pretty much everyone could figure it out on their own. After all, people do not need to be trained how to think in the first place: thought occurs as an instinctive part of being a human being. A person has quite a bit of control over their own thought.

Which sounds a lot like this technique:

Well, there was the bit where he taught about how Legilimency needs eye contact, there was the bit where he explained that it was a similar process to resisting the Imperius curse, so Harry should employ similar force of mind as the process that he was already familiar with, there was the bit where he explained about minds not being like books to be read and there was the bit where he explained that to be able to fool Voldemort he would need to be able to shut down his feelings and memories. And then there's the bit where he describes how to clear your mind, in very vague detail: making it blank and calm and devoid of any emotion. So more than just "clear you mind".

 

I have to agree with you - part of the reason that H/Hr is probably my favorite HP ship is that together they would have made an *awesome* force. His raw power, athleticism, and intuitive grasp of HOW to use magic in an emergency, backed up by her discipline, scholarship, and real knack for preparation, could have been a deadly combination. I like my heros to be heroic - not superpowered, and flaws are inevitable, but Harry ended up being *mediocre.*

I think that Draco is supposed to be Harry's counterpart - the boy who was raised with everything, including inheriting his father's crimes, vs the boy who had very little that could be measured, but a High tradition of honor. World-class Professional Firebolt vs Nimbus for the team. Harry got Ginny (JKR's idea of a Perfect Mate,) and several children and Draco managed to save his parents and was married with a son. Who did he marry? Well, someone who was fertile.

Now that I think of it, there WERE a lot of parallels, as well as contrasts. Draco had the rabid Bellatrix, Harry had half-mad Sirius. Draco loved his parents, Harry's parents loved him. Hagrid was predisposed to like Harry, Snape was Draco's godfather. Each was burdened with an impossible task, and forced to complete it alone. They were used as tools, and manipulated by the people who they trusted to look out for their best interests.

At the end, in the epilogue, they exchanged nods from opposite sides of the Depot, and then ignored each other. JKR probably wanted them to remain political opponents, but no longer enemies or even rivals. After all, after Voldemort, their schoolyard rivalry was finally put away like the childish thing it was.

 

This argument is meaningless. We'll never know if 'clear your mind' is enough because in the end Harry simply wasn't willing to try. He gave up.

 

We wandered off topic, although the hook that lead us astray was that Draco Malfoy DID learn it, so does that indicate a natural ability, a superior teacher (*flinch*,) or a "smarter/more disciplined/more powerful than Harry" Malfoy?

 

I'm going to stick with my, "she made them useless when she wanted them to be useless, and smart when she wanted them to be smart" theory, also knows as the: JKR-has-a-great-imagination-but-sucks-at-character-development hypothesis.

I am willing to accept alternate theories, but only in story form.

 

* wistfully imagining a HP series conceived by JKR, characterized by Sayers, plotted by Tolkein, and written by Austen *
* wanders off, crying *

 

You know Banner.....that could make for an excellent "guy walk's into bar" joke.......

 

*chortle*
What bar? The Rainbow Room? An inn in Stratford-on-Avon? A little hole-in-the-wall in Whitechapel?