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The Contradiction of Canon Magical Tracking

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Skeletaure, Jan 9, 2008.

  1. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Canon appears to contradict itself on the matter of magical tracking.

    In HBP, we're told that the Ministry of Magic cannot track individuals, and so only monitors households for magic. Thus children in magical households can get away with using magic in the holidays, if their parents allow them.

    However, in DH, we're told of the Trace, which is applied to a person and does not break until they're 17.

    The two appear to contradict: in HBP, tracking individuals is impossible; in DH, it's a reality.

    So, which one is correct? Or is there a way of reconciling the two?
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2008
  2. Stalicon

    Stalicon High Inquisitor

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    Ambient magic blocks the Trace from being picked up? It's the only reason I could see a magical household being immune. But more likely than not, it's just another plot hole.
     
  3. Vengashii

    Vengashii Banned

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    I thought Trace mighta been Dark Magic considering Voldemort in power.

    Although, I only read DH once and might be forgetting if it mentioned Trace was used when a democratic and free government was in power. Someone confirm?
     
  4. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Yeah, the Trace is something all witch's and wizards have until the age of 17, even before Voldemort took power.
     
  5. Banner

    Banner Dark Lady

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    I don't remember it at all. Is it cast on the wand before it's bought? In that case, I'd see all the DE kids buying their equipment overseas...
     
  6. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    No, it's attached to the person.

    Either it's a spell cast on a person that lasts 17 years, or it's something about a person's magic that makes it traceable that changes when they are 17 years old.
     
  7. Memory King

    Memory King Order Member DLP Supporter

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    The Trace picks up all magic done in the presence of an underage wizard or witch, but it's just ignored if another magical person is nearby, or if if a magical house-hold is in close proximity.

    I think this take on canon covers everything, let me know if I'm wrong.
     
  8. Dark Syaoran

    Dark Syaoran No. 4 Admin

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    But how would they know another magical person is nearby unless they were tracing them? When Dobby used the 'Hover Charm' in CoS, Harry got a letter. In OotP, I think it is, Tonks uses magic near him and nothing happens.

    Why not?

    It couldn't tell Harry and Dobby apart, so why can it tell Tonks and Harry apart?

    I guess it's possible that Dobby is invisible to the Trace, since he is a House-Elf. Personally, I think she just muddled herself up.
    Yeah, in the various talks about plotholes, I always bring that up.
     
  9. Spanks

    Spanks Chief Warlock

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    Most likely JK hadn't even thought of the Trace in book 2, which is why Dobby wasn't detected. Hell, she probably didn't think of it until she started writing book 7.

    If I were to make a guess as to when the trace is applied, possibly birth. How else could the ministry detect bouts of accidental magic? They would need to know if a child used magic in front of muggles in order to protect the secrecy act.
     
  10. Muttering Condolences

    Muttering Condolences Card Captored and buttsecksed

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    If the parents are expected to do it, then some parents, probably in Dark families, will 'forget' to apply it.

    If the Ministry does it, what forces the parents to take their new child to the Ministry for registration? Or keeps them from bribing an official from having to do it?

    I think I have a solution to our little plot hole. Wands. Wands are a heavily regulated magical item right? We only see three wand makers, and one is unnamed, in the whole series. I think the trace is applied to all wands made, each with a serial number. When Joe Blow Wizard turns 11 and buys his first wand, the wand maker records the magical signature, slaps a name and the recording next to a serial number, and ships it off the Improper Use of Magic Office for Hopkirk to file away.

    Edit: Of course, this doesn't explain why Harry got a letter in CoS. The only thing I can think of is the fact that Dobby was attempting to prevent Harry from returning to Hogwarts. House Elves are underrated to say the least, so I don't think it's a far stretch to think that Dobby could mimic Harry's magical signature and light up the magic sensors back at the Ministry.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2008
  11. Warlocke

    Warlocke Fourth Champion

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    It really is the simplest solution, barring anything contradictory from DH.
    If people really want to go with the idea that the trace is a sort of spelled placed on magical children that wears off when they come of age, then I doubt it's placed on them from birth. If that were true, who puts The Trace on muggleborn children? Do the MIBs track them down and put it on them? If so, why are most parents of muggleborns not told about magic until the child is sent their Hogwarts letter?

    It would have to be placed on them when they start Hogwarts. It's possible that The Trace is automatically placed on every underage magical child every time they enter the school (as part of 'the wards', fanon or not) and after they're of age, the spell ignores them and doesn't reapply the Trace. To be really insidious, maybe this spell is on many doorways throughout the UK and a magical child can scarcely go to any public building without being subjected to it. They walk through, they read as a magical human under the age of 17 and it places The Trace on them. That makes it VERY hard for an underage Harry to slip his leash and perform underage magic.

    I just can't see this because, first off, it's too convenient that the age at which your magic changes in such a way matches the age of majority. That's as bad as all those fics that have Harry gaining a zillion powers at the stroke of midnight on his birthday.

    Also, if anything, I would think a magical person would radiate more of a signal after they've learned to use magic, not less.
    Although one could claim that children bleed away more magic, involuntarily, due to a lack of control. Which works if you're one of the people that think everyone is born with the same 'amount' of/potential to do magic and that this amount never changes throughout anyone's life.
     
  12. Dark Syaoran

    Dark Syaoran No. 4 Admin

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    Uh... but if the trace is on the wand, it would have to come from the wand. And all that magical signature shit is fanon.
    It's more likely they made the age of majority match the age where their magic changes.

    It's a plothole that can't be solved using canon-only. With fanon, you can come up with hundreds of different reasons.
     
  13. claypigeon

    claypigeon First Year

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    You could also say that the Trace is put on the wand, however, when magic flows through it from the young wizard the Trace attaches itself to the wizard. If that was the case, then when the kid got his first wand he would have the Trace.

    The problem with any idea about wands is that not every wizard bought a wand, some were family heirooms. Plus if the Trace was on each wizard then Dobby's trick should not have worked, each Trace would have to be specific. If it were on the school ward that would not take into account anyone taught from home.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2008
  14. Banner

    Banner Dark Lady

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    I can't remember if it's canon or fanon, but SOMEWHERE I got the idea that the older families had unPlottable properties that could not be supervised by the Ministry. After all, Malfoy Manor hosted at least one revel that was attended by the Dark Lord himself and included a torture slaying of a Hogwarts professor. Draco was still underage at the time.

    If the spell is on the wand, then that explains Ollivander's disappearance: the DE wanted untraceable wands. I don't remember what happened to Ollivander - did he ever show up again after HBP?

    Ron and Neville both used inherited wands (I'd describe that as child abuse, by the way - it's as crippling as deliberately giving a child a pair of glasses that aren't fitted for his prescription) and neither ever mentioned getting in trouble for underage magic use. On the other hand, maybe neither ever tried casting a spell in a non-magical area. Both of them were pretty insulated from muggles.

    If the spell is applied at birth, at St.Mungo's or by the midwife, then all the Darker and the more stiff-necked families would Make Sure that their child's tagging slipped through the cracks. I would, if I thought that I could get away with it. I like the idea of the spell being applied to access points in public places.

    Harry was charged with casting the Patronus charm in public, but not the Lumos - which was cast through his wand, but not while he was touching it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2008
  15. Memory King

    Memory King Order Member DLP Supporter

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    What if The Trace has been cast on the Hogwarts Registry list? This would mean that a child is put under it's influence at the same time he gets accepted to Hogwarts. No extra work needed for the ministry, and a fool proof way of finding out about accidental magic. I think this is the most plausible solution.
     
  16. Banner

    Banner Dark Lady

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    Ah, but how does the child get on the Registry? I've always assumed that the Book covers the British Isles, and it identifies each child at the first use of accidental magic. Does anyone know the canon explanation? Does every Magic School have its own territory and Register?
     
  17. Memory King

    Memory King Order Member DLP Supporter

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    Hagrid told the Dursleys in PS that Harry had been on that list since his birth, but we all know how reliable Hagrid's info generally is. I don't think we've got anything else on that matter, however.
     
  18. claypigeon

    claypigeon First Year

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    The only way that I can see the Trace applying to everyone equally is if it's hereditary. Cast on the first person in the family to enter a magical school and each desendent activates it upon the showing accidental magic. You still have to deal with someone removing the Trace but you don't run into problems like homeschooling, hereditary wands, trained outside the country, etc. etc. I do't think the writer herself could answer this question and logically explain the reason why it works but thats my best guess at the moment.

    I would say unplottable wards exist if for no other reason than the existence of the Fidelues charm.
     
  19. Nefar

    Nefar Seventh Year

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    I don't think this could work. One, would wizards really want/allow what is basically a tracking charm to be cast on them, and consequently their kids and grandkids...? I don't think so.

    Also, it doesn't solve the problem of muggleborns.

    Although I am one of those people who believe all wizards have equal power, the idea that the Trace would pick up underage wizards because they can't control the power that 'bleeds off' of their spells can't work. The ability to 'focus' or not lose any magical efficiency would logically be improved over time, and not happen instantaneously when a wizard turns seventeen.
     
  20. Demons In The Night

    Demons In The Night Chief Warlock

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    I'm of the opinion that it is really a combination of a few things. I've always been a fan of the whole 'tracking spell on the wand' because that just seems like something the ministry in canon would do. I also believe that the ministry has some kind of sensor or magical device that picks up on powerful and unfocused (accidental magic). This could explain how they know when a muggleborn does accidental magic in order to dispatch the obliviators (shades of MiB) to erase the memory of those who witnessed it. I'm not a fan of what HBP says on the matter, that the ministry can't tell the difference between the people who use magic in a magical household. Before HBP I always assumed magical children (or at least the purebloods) could get away with underage magic due to unplottable wards, or wards to prevent magic detection. I don't like that DH seems to make the Trace infallible. I had always assumed there were ways to circumvent the underage magic rule either by removing the tracking spell on the wand, an occlusion amulet/device, wards, anti-tracking spells, or simply just using an heirloom wand.

    It takes the fun out of the issue if it is impossible to get around the underage magic rule. Way too big-brotherish for me. But then again, that is what we have fanfiction for.
     
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