Just wanted to comment on this. Who said that the amount of magic being poured into the spell is NOT an opposite reaction?Perhaps the spell just provides extremely fast acting, concentrated resistance. Like a concrete wall. A concrete wall will stop an object going 5 miles per hour. But it won't stop an object going 1,000 miles an hour unless it's a damn thick concrete wall. I would imagine the same thing applies with magic. Sure, anything is possible with enough magic.

Oh, and also, if you have an innate magic that protects you from anything, why did wizards ever bother with swords?

 

You completely ignored the one key word in just about all of those quotes: Distracted. Save for the first, that word was used in all of those. How is the wizard going to use magic to deflect a bullet when he's in the middle of casting a completely different spell?

Like I said, we have little to no idea how Occlumency works. For all we know, it could be the most complex magic around, or it could be something that non-magical people could do. We just don't know.

On the subject of the Imperius, the fact of the matter is, when Harry resisted it, there was no sign that he was using any magic to do so. All that was written was that he used force of will. Therefore, it is just as canon to suggest that resisting the Imperius curse doesn't need magic as it is to suggest that it does.

As far as we know, the Imperturbable Charm can't be cast on people. Maybe it needs to be cast on clothes - if that's the case, shoot the wizards in the head. It was never revealed how that charm works, so again, unless the charm can be cast on a person (as opposed to an object), the Imperturbable charm argument is not sufficient, unless the wizard has every inch of his flesh covered.

For that matter, a few guards would be able to do that. Why? Wizard apparates in, Guard #3 sees wizard, wizard gets shot in the vulnerable head.

I don't have any evidence, so you're right, Dragon Pox might be the only virus that affects wizards. Considering muggle technology, though, they could just alter the Dragon Pox virus to resist any and all cures.

I mentioned that it was probably extremely difficult to cast the Taboo, considering its scale. I could be wrong about this, of course. For all I know, Goyle Sr. may have been skilled enough to cast the spell. For all I know, the trace and the unplottable "wards" may be something a motivated first year could do. The fact is, we don't know, and advanced magic like that tends to require a lot of skill just to cast, let alone to cast over a large space of land such as an entire country.

Possible. We don't have any canon evidence to suggest one way or another how those spells are cast. For all we know, that may just apply to spells of that grandeur. Or, perhaps, it might not apply at all. For what canon has provided, we just don't know. I was proposing a theory, a possible idea; I could be wrong there, just as I could be right.

Time is a major factor when it comes to war.

System of underlings, passing along messages that are authorized from the president/prime minister/king/queen/etc.

As far as I've seen it, the entirety of the "Imperturbable charm" argument is pure "lolmagic." By "lolmagic," of course, I mean the damnable idea that Magic can do fucking everything, that any and all muggle technology is useless, and that muggles are little more than amoeba; minor annoyances, and nothing more.

 

Note that Godric Gryffindor's sword was an enchanted, Goblin-made sword.

Also, take note of the jewel-encrusted hilt. Unlike in RPG's, real swordfighters don't fight with ornate, gaudy swords like that, suggesting it was more of a ceremonial object than anything else.

Someone else do something about this.

You just gave Demon_Vigilante the type of 'lolmagic' remark he needed. Good job.

 

Just? Come now. 'lolmagic' has existed since Wizard vs Muggle original, when Taure argued that the flame freezing charm could stop a nuclear bomb.

 

I didn't read the whole thread, didn't really have time. And when I said enough magic, I meant on the scale of...oh, let's say the entire wizarding population of Planet Earth. I'm sure that with the combined magic of all wizards and witches on earth, you could do pretty much anything. But no single wizard, or indeed no group of powerful wizards could do something like that.

 

Perhaps he applied the shield before Apparating into combat? Odd idea to put on armor before battle, I know, but it might just make sense to those rare geniuses.

For some reason, you seem to be suggesting a wizard would need to cast a seperate shield charm for every bullet?

We do know that magic is needed to block Legilimency. Remember, Harry blocks Snape's Legilimency with a Shield spell. So far, there is one example of Legilimency needing magic to be stopped, and zero showing non-magical means blocking it.

True about the Imperius, I suppose. Agree-to-disagree about this unless someone can provide any canon quotes or a reason why not?

Wrong. Hermione cast it on the Trio in the Gringotts-break in scene (another point that had already been mentioned earlier in the thread), and it stopped the further burning of them all, although not where they had already been burned.

Even if we accept the Imperturbable can't be cast on people, then what's to stop the wizards from applying it to... helmets?

And how far in the future is this? This is a perfect example of 'lolmagic,' with the 'magic' replaced by 'tech.'

Time is even more of a factor when trying to get your leader to a safe spot when the war brakes out before wizards do their instant-teleport thing and neutralize him.

So you're saying that yes, an ordinary function of the Ministry (tracking underage wizards) is totally dependent upon an extremely limited (think one or two) pool of people to work? So now that Dumbledore is gone, all the underaged wizards will be free to cast magic all day long?

Remember, the difference between wizards is skill, not power, so logically the Ministry would be sure to train people (or groups of people) who they could employ to cast large-scale magic like that.

System of messengers = trail.

You say that you find the Imperturbable charm wrong. Then explain the flaw in Taure's arguement!

Also, you are heavily suggesting that because I/others think that magic can do one thing (shield against physical impacts, which is based of canon and logic) that we think it can do anything. That is patently false and has no support. Magic can do one thing =/= magic can do everything.


EDIT ADDITIONS:

What's wrong with this? Obviously it would not be the only spell a wizard would use to protect themselves, but it would take care of the heat aspect of the bomb. (He mentioned conjuring lead shields, Bubble-headed charm, Apparating out earlier in *this* thread.)

 

It said in the books that the Dementors wouldn't be loyal to the ministry because Voldemort had far more souls to offer them. Logically, million (or billions depending on the scale) of muggles would be a pretty good offer for the dementors.

Other than that, I don't think you understand the fact that wizards have two things that will devastate muggles in warfare: wards and apparation/portkeys.

You talk about muggle strategies and tactics, but how are you supposed to plan an attack on a base you not only can't plot on a map, but you also can't access on foot because of muggle-repelling wards? How are you supposed to flank someone who can apparate behind your lines?

And I would like to point out that muggle equipment malfunctions when in an area saturated with magic. Not that they can even send a bomb at Hogwarts, as it is unplottable, but if they could, what do you think would happen?

Also, that whole 'lolmagic' thing seems like a pointless argument for your side. There have been no stipulations on just what magic can do in the books- we don't even have proof that it can't bring back the dead. While it obviously is limited by the skill of the caster, magic can seemingly do anything. This may be lolmagic to you, but it there is nothing to negate it in the books.

 

You know what? I'm done. I accept defeat, because really, this argument is pointless. Nothing is going to convince you guys that muggles are more than mere insects compared to wizards, so what's the point? It's not even fun anymore.

*Goes back to reading these arguments, as opposed to participating in them*

 

The thread is over.

You're still pushing that line about all of us being rabid Muggle-haters.

If I say a group of street thugs with guns could defeat twice their number in charging lance and sword-armed cavalry, does that mean I'm a rabid knight-hater? No. It just means I've objectively weighed the evidence and concluded that unless these minions simultaneously collapse of heart-attack, then in most scenarios they will defeat the cavalry.

In effect, you're saying "I've won, but I can't prove it." I bet Hitler wished he could have said that.

 

Then look over the thread, think of every argument you can for both sides of the debate, and consider the following:

Since the enemy has magic, can the muggles even fight back?

As I look through the thread, I continuously find one answer to that question: No. They can never fight back. Realistically, they really are like insects in comparison.

Honestly, I wish I could say that, but I can only admit that I lost this argument, sad though it is. I'm not saying that I won; I'm saying "I lost, but I can be a man about it." You guys have pretty much cemented it in my mind that no matter what argument someone can come up with for the muggles to even stand a chance in a war against wizards, it will quickly be debunked by simple magic. Bullets - imperturbable. Nukes - unplottable wards, flame freezing charms, etc. Hiding the leaders - ligilimency, imperius curse.

After giving my all, it just doesn't matter. Muggles can't even fight back, because JKR (perhaps unintentionally) made magic far too strong.

EDIT: Post #400, huh? And here I was hoping that it would have been a worthwhile post. Ah well...

 

Since the enemy has automatic weapons, can the knights (to keep using my example) even fight back?

No. Does that give the Wizards/thugs moral superiority over the Muggles/thugs? No. Am I claming such moral superiority? No.

Look over the thread, look over the debate, and consider the following:

Has logical, canon-based proof been given that supports the general idea that wizards would have the upper hand in an armed conflict with Muggles?

Yes.

Has illogical, non-canon based proof of how Muggles "really are like insects" and deserved to be crushed, raped, beaten to death, kitchenware tortured, etc been presented?

No.



You know what? I'm going to go have a donut. In the end, that makes me the winner.

 

Again, you're claiming that I'm trying to be the winner. I'm just trying to accept my defeat with dignity.

...And make you think about how the argument looks. By insects, I don't mean that they should be crushed. Only that they could. I don't think anyone here is arguing that.

EDIT: If this argument has taught me anything, it's that a guy can't even lose with dignity when it comes to you, Nefar.

 

The idea is very dull, and as others said, unoriginal. Anyway, this is what I thought of when I read the challenge. My idea’s odd, but make of it as you will. It’s kind of off topic now, but whatever. Btw, it's AU.

First, you could have Harry live in a secluded society. A society that knows about magic and hates it. They believe that it is blasphemy; they are taught that as children. Harry is of high standing in this society (as he was taken as baby from the Dursley’s door stoop) and he attends an elite school, kind of like a military school for ‘gifted children‘. This school teaches their students that magic is evil and how they should fight to eradicate it. The children are actually magically gifted. However, the only people who know this fact is the Headmaster who set up the school: Voldemort. The citizens, the graduates, and the students know nothing.

The school was set up to defeat magic and the students are trained accordingly. Harry, who has lived in and around the school area his entire life, receives his first mission as a Journeyman Cadet (you can call it whatever you want. He‘s in his second of three stages from graduating from the Academy.) Anyway, he leaves the school for his mission, which is to infiltrate Hogwarts. He is to establish himself as a trusted member of the ’Wizarding Society’. The Cadets use special rifles that nullify a wizard’s magic. It zaps there inner reserves and he has other ‘muggle’ objects that deflect and/absorb magic. These are not non-magical objects as all the citizens of the society believes though, as Harry is lead to believe. Only, the Head staff, i.e. Voldemort’s inner circle, know about this.

When Harry leaves, he is detected and Hogwarts/the Ministry now knows about his existence. Previously, Harry had been thought dead because around the perimeter of the school/city is an anti-magic detection ward. It cannot be detected from the outside with magic, kind of like muggle repealing charm, except exactly opposite as this repeals apparation, port-keys ect. When Harry leaves the wards his magical signature is detected and he receives a Hogwarts acceptance letter.

Harry has been debriefed about this and he writes back. Harry believes he has fooled the wizard into thinking that he is one of them because he has ’fake magic’, which is something he has to wear to make it seem like he has magic. He was given it via the Academy Headmaster.

Harry despises staying at Hogwarts and he refuses to do magic while there as a ‘student’. Dumbledore will be concerned and try to coax Harry into learning magic. Nobody in the wizarding world has any idea about the Academy and Harry told everybody some lie to say where he had been all this time.

Harry hides his weapons on is person. You decide how.

Harry will learn that he has magic. He feels betrayed and ashamed at this revelation.

Harry was on of Voldemort’s favorite students and you can decide if you want Harry to kill Voldemort and turn against him or you can even kill both Dumledore and Voldemort. He kills them with his magic nullifying riffle. You know, turn Voldemort’s own invention against him as he invented the special riffles. Poetic justice anyone?

You can decide where to take it from there and add pairings if you want.

 

Does that mean we have actually brought you over to our way of thinking, Demon_Vigilante? That is the point of an argument, is it not?

Anyways, highjacked thread given back. Your idea won't work, Scion. If given the option between being the best gunman in the world and being a somewhat above average wizard, I would pick wizard. Bullets kill things. Magic kills things and does just about everything else too...

 

If only because canon magic is nearly omnipotent, and there really isn't any way to get around those blasted arguments. Naturally, if I ever write a story that requires a muggle/wizard war...magic is getting a severe downgrade in power right from the start, because the muggles are completely insignificant in comparison to wizards, with the way JKR's got the magic system set up.

On the original topic...

That sums up my feelings on this subject pretty nicely (I cut out the Rorschach's Blot thing, because the clarifications had him failing too, thus eliminating the "exception").

 

The Wizarding World has time travel. The normal world doesn't. EOD. It's not 'lolmagic', but it's pretty damn close.

 

In a drawn-out declared war it is undeniable that Wizards would win. But if Muggles performed a cordinated strike on Wizards, elimanating their leadership, nuking Hogwarts etc. I think they would destroy the majority of Wizard's morale, and undoubtably some would surrender to avoid tortue/death etc. The muggles could blackmail the Wizards that surrendered into helping capture and Wizards that resisted. End of war, muggles win.

EDIT: As for motivation, there's the freakiness factor, plus free energy.

 

Can't nuke Hogwarts, mate. It's unplottable. That means it can't be located on a map. You can't bomb something you can't target. I assume that locations like Diagon alley and the Ministry are protected in the same way.

 

Considering that the Ministry is in the middle of muggle London, I doubt they'd try nuking it anyways, even assuming they knew where it was. I'm not entirely sure where Diagon Alley is, but I think that's in London too. Again, nuking massive cities = bad.