It's a bit of a separate topic when you think of it - where magic "comes from" is different to what process the wizard uses access it, which is what this thread has mostly been about.

Anyway, ignoring that, the first thing that must be said is "we don't know". Unlike the "skill is power" theory, there's pretty much no information in canon to back up any theory about what magic is.

That said, we can certainly speculate possible answers, but that is all it will be - speculation.

I would recommend these two threads where I (and others) have commented a bit on ideas as to what magic "is":

http://forums.darklordpotter.net/showthread.php?t=9636
http://forums.darklordpotter.net/showthread.php?t=8539

 

I was trying to link the idea to the thread in that, in order to use the magic, the energy to produce spell-light or create a sound must be drawn from somewhere. How would the user of magic drawn this energy? One explination could be ambient magic, drawing magic/energy from the surrounding environment, and thus the reason for using a wand as a conduit?

 

Well, the position I hold is that magic isn't an energy/power at all, but rather akin to a control over reality, so that avoids the problem completely. The light, sound and other sensory effects that some spells have are merely side-effects of reality being bent/broken to the wizard's will.

 

Yes, I think the magic = energy equality that a lot of people are drawn to is a false one. You could say that in some cases energy is a symptom of magic because manipulation of the real would have something to do with manipulating energy, the magic and the energy being entirely seperate. I actually think that is going a bit too far in trying to understand the 'nature' of magic though.

 

Newsflash: magic doesn't follow the laws of thermodynamics. Shocking.

 

Well, I never stated that, but the Laws of Thermodynamics relate to 'heat' energy transfer etc, while I mentioned Light and Sound energy; hence the name, 'thermo'dynamics. Granted, the First Law relates to all types of energy, but within Thermodynamics it is based around the amount of heat supplied into a process (Forgive me if I am wrong here; again, physics isn't my forte). But- where is it stated that Magic doesn't follow such laws?

An example; gravity. I would rather believe that Magic acts as a force against gravity, rather then dissipating it. Thus, mass would have an effect on the spell cast, requiring more skill/concentration/will etc to levitate a heavier object.

Again, as Taure is, I am just making assumptions from the evidence we are given.

 

I think that magic has no measurement because, like Taure, I believe that it is simply the power to bend reality.

This theory is given basis most especially by Ron at Halloween in First Year.

He lifts a trolls club with his first correctly cast levitation charm ever. If the power of the charm is some sort of energy that needs to be given, like the force needed to go against gravity, like you say, then wouldn't Ron have been tired after lifting such a large club?

Instead, it seemed that lifting the club was just as easy as lifting a feather. If we use that evidence, than lifting something of any weight is no more difficult than lifting something of a different weight.

 

That everburning fire thing that Dumbledore whips up as a gift to the giants - energy in the form of heat and light from nowhere. That smashes the shit out of the first law.

As a limited time bonus offer, I'll throw in Newton's laws of motion - an overpowered Expelliarmus can send the target flying back without the caster flying back too. Equal and opposite reaction ring any bells?

And from a philosophical standpoint, transfiguration from live animals to inert objects and vice versa is all kinds of troubling.

Could make an argument that direct mind-to-mind contact - Imperius, curse scar links, what have you - is instantaneous and therefore screws with the whole "don't exceed C or bad shit happens" thing.

To quote Sir Samuel Vimes:

 

I like the quote, but those two arguments don't quite convince me. Transfiguration isn't what seems very troubling about magic from a philosophical point of view. Also, I think there is no way to say at what speed mind to mind contact goes as it isn't tried over large distances in the books, although for the sake of simplicity I would argue that what the magic does is link them without any notion of distance.

 

Tehan, all your arguments are void if you look at Magic itself as a source of energy; hence my reason for posting in this topic. That energy has to come from somewhere. (Warning, assumption alert!)

The magical fire could be explained away as constantly drawing ambient magic from the air and transferring it into heat and light energy.

For Newton’s law, the kinetic energy of an Expelliarums can be countered with 'magical energy' from an opposite direction.

Transfiguration isn't troubling on a physics standpoint so long as there is no energy loss/creation.

Your points are drawn from the assumption that Magic is not an energy source, while my posts are leaning more towards that point. Magic in the Harry Potter verse can be seen to fit around the general rules of physics, whether this is deliberate by Rowling or a fluke I don't know, nor care, so long as you consider Magic as a type of Energy.

You could, as Taure said, disagree completely and see magic as something which warps reality, but meh. Each to ones own.

 

There are some things that magic can do which simply cannot be done in accordance with physics, no matter how much energy you pump into it. I'm not physicist, but it's my impression that you can't travel faster than the speed of light, no matter how much energy you have. And yet we have apparation.

There are some things which are more than physically impossible, but also logically impossible. And yet we have objects which are two different things at once (logically impossible because being two different things at once is a contradiction).

And then there are things that are possible within physics, but require so much energy that to say that wizards can do it would be saying that each individual wizard is in possession of greater amounts of energy than several stars. And they do these things casually, many times a day, without a hint of exhaustion. So make that a couple thousand stars.

Finally, there is the fact that magic is not consistent. It is random. It is spontanious. See: Mr Weasley's car coming to life, the fact that Harry's death/rebirth is not something that can be replicated, even if you were in exactly the same circumstances, because it depends on Harry and Voldemort's moral choices and characters. The "laws" that magic abides by are really not laws at all, but rather habit. It was a law of magic that you cannot bring back the dead, yet we have the Resurrection stone. It was a law of magic that you cannot fly unaided, and yet Voldemort does this in DH. It is apparent that magic is in a constant state of flux: what magic is and can do depends entirely on who is using it, and thus its laws are as variable as humanity itself.

This is anathema to physics. Science as a discipline is the study of a consistent phenomena. You take empirical evidence, and you come to conclusions by induction. This cannot work with something that is random, even if some aspects of it show regularity.

Which there is.

 

You mean "magic does it"? THAT'S WHAT I JUST FRIGGIN' SAID.

You can pretend magic works within physics if you want, but it's incredibly stupid. Let's take an example - Dumbledore has a habit of conjuring up chairs out of nothing. It takes somewhere in the region of ninety quadrillion joules to make just one kilo of mass. For a nice, fluffy armchair, let's say about 20 kilos, you're looking at 1.8 quintillion joules. And Dumbles does it casually and it's not treated as impressive. If magic follows physical laws, mucking about with the pure energy equivalent of 24 tons of weapons-grade uranium is nothing special.

Want to rethink that position?

 

Points taken, but if magic was a form of energy, accessible from the environment, then it could explain them (minus the life/birth thing, obviously.)

I'd rather see magic as an energy on a certain frequency, and thus subject to certain laws of physics can affect it in certain ways. This may be because one of the fanfics I'm writing explores this idea (such as a Protego shield acting at a certain frequency and thus is able to be manipulated by spells of a similar level).

- You mean "magic does it"? THAT'S WHAT I JUST FRIGGIN' SAID. -

No, I mean magic in the form of energy does it, so the resultant force acts upon the energy not the object. Analogy; when firing a gun, the energy backlash is dispersed as sound, heat, light and kinetic energy. The 'opposite' reaction of the forward kinetics is the heat/light/sound and recoil as 'backwards' momentum. The opposite reaction to an Expelliarmus throwing someone across a stage would be extracted on the energy of the spell, not the person.

It's fiction. I didn't say it had to be practical, for magic isn't practical, but it would make sense that a world that can exist alongside our own follows the same basic ideals as ours does.

BTW; where did you get the joules/mass ration from?

 

e = mc^2.

That you don't know that off the top of your head shows how little you know of physics.

Energy in the quintillions of joules isn't just impractical, you idiot. It's downright retarded unless you're talking hardcore sci fi. Dyson spheres and the like. That there's a secret type of energy just floating around that you can only manipulate if you wave a wand, that can whip up thousands of Hiroshimas worth of energy on a fucking whim? That's... I don't know if there's a word for how utterly stupid that is.

 

No, I know the equation for a mass-energy relationship, but I wanted to know where you got the ratio for joules and mass. Where did you get the 'quintillions' from, for I've never actually done a formal study on converting rest mass to energy and thus have never had a need to find the actual ratio.

 

SI units, damnit. You know, the stuff they use almost everywhere? You ain't American (or Liberian or Burmese), so you can't claim ignorance.

I suppose technically I should use peta- and exa- for quadrillions and quintillions respectively, but meh.

 

Tehan- I just wanted to know where you got the 'quintillion' sized number from, for I have never worked with the formula before.

However, simply using E/m=c^2 gives you the speed of light squared, so I would image that is the number you was using.

From your example, when Dumbledore is conjuring a chair, it depends on how you believe conjuration works. Was he conjuring it from nothing, or was he taking an existent object from somewhere else? Do conjured items last indefinitely? If not, could it not be fair to assume that the chair is merely ambient magic compressed into the form of a chair, sharing the aesthetic properties but not the molecular ones?

I don't consider myself an idiot, Tehan, simply because I'm not well versed in physics; I even stated such in a previous post. I was asking a question, and then putting forward one of my opinions on the matter. As far as I can see, within the bounds of fiction, Magic can follow the laws of physics, especially in the HP-verse because we haven't been given all the limitations or any real in-depth study in canon. All we have are assumptions, and believing me to be an idiot because my assumption doesn't fit with your own is ignorant.

Yeah, tell me about it, just like that stupid thing about Dragons being real, and how Goblins actually have tunnels underneath London. You make it sound as if I believe it to be real, while I'm just stating that it is possible within fiction. Anything is possible within fiction, the only limits are your imagination, and the ability to wield such power 'on a fucking whim' isn't as farfetched as some of the things we see in canon; such as a nation wide taboo on the name 'Voldemort' or the ability to split your soul into two pieces.

 

Well, it has only been in use for thirty years.

I have no idea what the fuck you're saying here. Yes, c^2 means the speed of light squared. c is defined as the speed of light. ^2 means squared. This takes an assumption, how?

Instantaneous transportation makes physics chuck a big fat wobbly even more than exajoules of energy in a single stick.

Wait, now magic is matter as well as energy? I mean, sure, light is both a wave and a particle, but ask any physicist whether you could build a chair out of it and he'll laugh in your face.

While working with physics, taking energy and making matter goes through e = mc^2. It's that simple.

The moment you said "magic can work with physics" opened you up to being called an idiot because it very clearly doesn't. Proclaiming your theory to be correct while ignoring clear proof that it's wrong... now that is ignorance.

Way to prove my point for me, cupcake. It's fiction. It doesn't work with the real world. Aerodynamics has serious problems with a giant lizard weighing in at several tons flitting around the air like a swallow. Biology would quirk an eyebrow at Nundus breathing plagues and Salamanders being spontaneously born out of magical fires. There's no way in hell you could come up with a way to let you know when someone across an entire country said a certain word without a metric fuckton of microphones, some damn good vox interpreting software, and insane amounts of processing power. Splitting your soul to become immortal is so damn impossible with hard science that it's ridiculous. But all these are possible with magic because MAGIC DOESN'T FOLLOW NATURAL LAWS.

 

Nice post Taure, but people should really stop with the speed of light thing. We can't tell whether or not it's instantaneous, let's leave it at that.

Ok, firstly, that's a contradiction. If it comes from the magic, the energy doesn't have to come from anywhere else. It does if you look at the magic as providing no energy and simply manipulating it that you have the problem you are outlining.

Secondly, there is no reason to think there are restrictions on the amount of magic you can do or energy magic can discharge at a certain place. Imagine a duel between Dumbledore and Voldemort that turns into a fist fight... yeah.

So if there are no restrictions, then why the fuck do you need to have the concept of ambient magic at all? How does it eplain anything?

Try to make some sense; don't say stupid shit. Light is not an opposite reaction (at least from a Newtonian point of view), and I don't think physicians consider that a force acts on energy; it acts on a massive object.