I'd just like to point out that Lupin did wandless magic in the train in PoA, when he created a fistful of flames to light up the compartment.

 

That's one interpretation. Another is that he used his wand to conjure flames that simply sat in his hand.

 

I like Remus. And it isn't really necroing if it's a thread filled with substance and which is better not remade. Meaning it's best not to remake a new thread saying Remus isn't what DLP thinks and wondering what the person is talking about since we've forgotten this thread.'

Also - "don't care about." Ok. Take a look at the name of the forum. Dark Lord Potter. Look at the area we're in. Canon Harry Potter discussion. This is a Harry Potter forum for discussing Harry Potter related items. If the poster crosses the threshold into relevance, it is not a necro-post, but a continuation of the discussion at a later date. You're not dealing with past events that are no longer relevant. Remus Lupin is still an HP character, his character is still up for discussion and you're fucking retarded to be bashing someone who is actually willing to discuss rather than just post in Real Life Discussion.

This forum needs discussion; do not spurn it.

The person added much to the discussion and I will agree with that person that Remus is actually one of the better characters Pre-HBP, which is usually the period with which we (DLP) judge whether or not a character is worthwhile.

There aren't many, if any, that leave HBP or DH unscathed. Not Harry; he's a bitch. Not Dumbledore; he's a bitch. Not Snape; he's always been a bitch. So Remus is rather cool Pre-HBP. Most people probably hate him for taking Tonks or something stupid like that. Remember that it was he, not anyone else - not Dumbledore, not Sirius, not Hermione, not anyone, who single-handedly taught Harry Potter the Patronus Charm.

Remember that scene we all go back and look at and say - wow, I wish Harry was more like this and less of a barely-average wizard who sucks cock? Oh yeah - it's when he fucking whips open a can of whoopass on one hundred fucking dementors and rapes them with his Patronus Charm. Yeah, that was Remus who taught him. So maybe if Rowling had continued this excellent tutelage, you'd have a worthwhile Harry in the later books.

Remus was ready to kill a bitch before Rowling destroyed the series with HBP. And don't "guess" or say "well maybe it was something else" but yes, Remus Lupin was one of the only people of relevance in the Death Chamber. He taught Defense Against the Dark Arts and was the most successful professor perhaps tied with Snape and maybe even ahead since he has the art of teaching down and not just knowing as Snape does and exceeds at. He was successful enough in the Death Chamber to pay attention to Harry, Sirius and Bellatrix Lestrange - when Bella shitcanned the dog, he dropped whatever it was he was doing or wrapped it up and tried to prevent HP from going and being a retard. Which Harry did.

He is aware. He's an intellectual character who, if James and Sirius had modeled, might have lead to entirely different circumstances. James and Sirius were assholes, remained assholes and died assholes, undoubtedly. As I discount HBP and DH in a discussion of a character's worth, since if we did, there would be no one worth discussing and these discussions wouldn't happen, Remus ended on a high note.

Also: Rather than attacking someone, why don't you let the moderators and administrators do that job and shut the fuck up. I'm getting so tired of backseat moderating from dipshits who have little if any reason to be moderating.

The Irish faggot who responded first, who joined in January 2008 needs to drink his malt whiskey and shut the fuck up. The Doctor is second to that. I respect the H/Hr passion and your need to fellate the guy who played Bartemius Crouch, Jr. but cool it.

We went through this with DLR, Jr. Mod Esquire. Syaoran, Raven, Vash and co are active - if they feel it's worth "banning" or whether it's "trollesque", they'll do so. If you're so in dire need of passing judgement, tell the admin/mod and then insult them for being unable to do their job, if you feel they are.

Until that time, eat a dick, respond carefully or get lost.

 

I should mention that Rowling did punish Lupin for abandoning Tonks. She killed him off. Why she killed off Tonks is another matter entirely...

Lupin was a good DADA teacher, and he taught Harry the spell to cast the Patronus, but it wasn't Remus that caused Harry to successfully cast it. It was time. Temporal paradox, yadda yadda yadda, we've all been here before.

Harry is quite right. Next time he needs to master a spell, get a fucking Dragon and stick it in front of him.

Love you too, Saruman. But you're right. On another forum I frequented I used to get on people's backs for being mini-mods. Quite the hypocrite, aren't I?

 

Quoted for truth.

 

Saruman for moderator.

fake edit: am I serious?

 

I don't care for Remus as a character one way or another. I just hate the fact that he somehow bagged Tonks. I'm not a chick, but Remus isn't exactly an admirable or desirable dude.

He's a poor, limp noodle, cowardly, (a)pathetic, aging werewolf.

Not only is the age difference somewhat creepy, I just don't see how Tonks could fall for the guy.

I deny Tonks/Remus with a passion.

 

Lupin wasn't even 40 when he died; there are 40+ year old guys who look moderately attractive, bagging 20 yr old girls on the regular nowadays. Oftentimes it has nothing to do with how much money the guy has either, just some blind attraction to "more mature" guys.

Canon description said he still looked young, but with grey hair and scars - don't let the movie version of him come to mind. And yeah, he was poor, but so what? That doesn't stop people from falling in love. Look at the Weasleys (Weasley-haters don't flame - it's a valid example, regardless of your emnity).

But you're right: we don't see how Tonks could fall for him, and we don't see proof of his teaching qualities or fighting prowess, because the books aren't about him. We can't scoff and always say that Rowling made a canon mistake, or was 'inconsistent'.

 

Most of the points I have against Lupin already have been covered - I'll skip the "what he said" parts.

However, Lupin Screwed Way The Hell Up when he forgot to take his wolfsbane potion in PoA. In one awesomely dumbass failure, he betrayed everyone who trusted him to protect the children in the School.
He was hired as a teacher, but it was at least implicitly understood that his lycanthropy wouldn't be a threat. Most likely, part of his payment for teaching was the Potion. He had easy access to the Wolfsbane (quite possibly for the first time ever,) Snape actually delivered the stuff to him in person.
My assessment of Lupin's personality is that he has a problem with commitment. He appears to want all the normal, happy things in life; a steady job, a family, strong friendships. But for whatever reason, he doesn't follow through. When it comes to the long haul, he always fails. It's actually Freudian in a way; he doesn't even seem to be able to grasp that he is sabotaging himself.

His relationship with Tonks looks (through Harry's eyes) like something from a soap opera. Didn't she get so depressed in Book6 that she wasn't able to morph for a while? Then he abandoned a pregnant woman (speaking as a woman, that shows a REAL failure as a man.)
He condemned Sirius just as everyone else did - if he had visited, or even had correspondence with Black, then Sirius would have told him that Peter was the Secret Keeper. It's possible that Sirius was kept incommunicado for the entire time while in Azkaban (God knows that all his OTHER rights were abrogated,) but that's just supposition. What we KNOW is that no one had any communication with him.
In some twelve years, he never made contact with Harry. He didn't send a birthday card, he didn't call, he didn't visit. Dumbledore might have ordered complete separation from the Wizarding world, but Remus obeyed him. Moreover, he continued the separation after Harry started at Hogwarts, when there was no reason whatsoever to maintain distance.
He shot down his chance to teach at Hogwarts. If he had demonstrated that he was reliable about the Wolfsbane, then I suspect that he would have had the job for as long as Dumbledore was Headmaster. Potion, meals, housing, a respectable job with people who were willing to support him, and a regular paycheck. All guaranteed So Long As He Took The Medication.

 

So, this thread in short:

People who like Remus Lupin: We like Remus Lupin because he screws up like normal people, but has some redeeming traits, also like normal people.

People who dislike Remus Lupin: We dislike Remus Lupin because he screws up like normal people, but has some redeeming traits, also like normal people.

It seems to me that the debate is really about what people like in the characters they read, not about Remus Lupin specifically.

 

Remus's screwups were actually rather spectacular.
Getting blind, staggering drunk and then trying to drive home isn't a minor little prank - forgetting to take the wolfsbane is just as irresponsible.
Walking out on Tonks isn't an impulsive mistake like having a one-night-stand - he abandoned her for months during a civil war.
Not checking that Harry was in a good foster home is another long-term failure. Lupin knew that James had no one else to stand up for his child. It doesn't take much effort to make a phone call. Harry's life probably would have been much sweeter if the Dursleys knew that someone was checking up on his wellbeing.

 

It was an analogy. He knew he was a danger to others, and he had a simple way to negate the danger. Just like arranging for a ride home before you start drinking.

 

Taure, you're forgetting a category--people who don't care one way or another!

 

I happen to like Remus personally.

Most of his things have been covered but I'll do the ones I see as standouts.

He is a werewolf. Ok now, that's big. Imagine going through a childhood turning into a fucking monster every month (an apparently incredibly painful transformation), fearing killing people, people scorn you, and your in danger from being killed, imprisoned or burned to death by cutlery.

That would not have been an easy childhood. I mean, Harry Potter's parents died when he was one...big deal. He didn't know them at all. Remus lost two of his best friends. And friends are probably hard to come by as a werewolf. Try to imagine what he's going through. The small amount of friends you've ever had suddenly think you're a traitor. Then, 2 of them are killed, supposedly betrayed by another close friend who goes and kills the last remaining one.

That. Is. A fucking shitload of trauma to deal with. Remus no doubt got well angsty. If I was in his position I would have done the same. He probably barely even knew Harry as Lily and James would have gone into hiding straight after he was born and not trusted Remus. So fuck Harry.

Anyone who hates Remus for abandoning Harry can go get anally raped by Grawp. Consider the situation and tell me you would have chased after a kid you barely knew when dealing with that kind of stress.

So then he endds up surviving 13 years of a no doubt hard, friendless life struggling to deal with the trauma of losing everyone you cared about. Most people would have offed themselves. I fucking would've.

In the end he comes back to teach at Hogwarts, a place that would bring up lots of old memories he would want to forget, to teach a bunch of kids who would hate him if they knew whathe was.

He then proceeds to teach Harry possibly one of the most useful spells he could ever learn. On his own. With a kid who looks so much like a guy who died hating Remus.

After that he works for the Order of the Phoenix. I doubt he gets paid. He's the onlyone in the whole Order who can talk the werewolves out of joining Riddle. It's probably an incerdibly dangerous job and he does it because he's the only one who can.

So Remus scores Tonks. How is that a bad thing? I personally love th Tonks/Remus pairing. They fit well together, it is somewhat believable and it's just a good thing to the story. Tonks/Remus is much more believable and I happen to prefer it a lot more than to Tonks/Harry. It's a matter of preference.

On a whole I just liked Remus because of the sort of character he is. He lives through a life probably a lot shitter than Harry's and copes with it a lot fucking better. He tries to be there for Harry after PoA despite the fact it would probably feel incredibly awkward, especially after Sirius came into it. He was the first decent DADA teacher and actually tried to help the kids.

The way I see it, he's the first decent, believable, incredibly good character JKR wrote. He's an awesome guy who goes through a shit life and still turns out awesome. He's the sort of guy lots of kids would want as an uncle or something.

That's why I like Remus. No I really just said a lot of what's already been said but thats my opinion. I'm just a person who likes Remus for what Taure said. He's the quissensential hard life, good guy who you think people like Harry deserve to meet and learn from.

As for the whole necroing thing. I have little else to add than what Saruman said.

 

Since I don't know how to qoute, this will probably get confusing.

For all the people who sort of "stood up " for me, thanks.

As matter of fact, I am thirteen. And, I really don't care how old I am, in my opinion, age doesn't mean that you can or cannot present your opinion.

Remus is a limp noodle? That's certainly...creative. What I don't get, is why when Remus was gone from his wife, for no more than a week, people all of a sudden make it seem like he blew up Vegas. He wanted to help Harry, sure it might have been wrong, but it is clear that he thought he was doing the right thing. He said the child would be better off without him, and the fact that he thought that is enough proof that he is uncomfortable with himself, and thinks he doesn't deserve things "normal" people have, such as children. He made a mistake, he realized it, and he came back. It has to take alot of guts to come back to your wife's home, and not only have to deal with her, but her parents. What really gets me is, men leave to fight in wars all the time, leaving their pregnent wives at home. How is this different?

 

The "no more than a week" argument does not work; his intention was to leave for the duration of the war in order to help Harry. Harry rejected his offer, and he ultimately went back to Tonks. That's the way things happened.

To caricature:

Most men who fight in wars leave because there's a war to be fought, and unfortunately their wives happen to stay at home, pregnant or not. In Remus' case, he left because he couldn't bear to think his wife was pregnant (despite her obvious happiness) and conveniently enough, there was a war going on at the same time.

My point exactly. This tendency of his grew irritating; he had three friends in his youth who spent years proving every day to him that he was worth fighting for. They became Animagi for his sake, after all. Then he lapsed again into his old "I-don't-deserve-friends-or-a-girlfriend" way of thinking, and Tonks had to cry for one year before he realised some people didn't care if he was a werewolf; hell, maybe he wouldn't even have yielded if Fleur hadn't proven she had no problem marrying a half-werewolf.

You'd think he would stop hesitating and wallowing in self-pity then; it was understandable at first, but at last it had become frankly irritating. But no! What the hell! After all the evidence he'd been given that he had friends that accepted him as he was, and a wife who loved him, he had to go all "Oh I can't have a child, I'm not worthy of it!" AGAIN! My God, what does the man need?

To be called a coward to his face, apparently. It worked, at least.

See, that's why I don't like him so much. He annoys me. I think he's a good character, believable, useful and well-written, and certainly not a bad man, but he's not very likeable to me.


******************


On the subject of Harry: Lupin could have written to him after Harry's first year, and the letters wouldn't have been intercepted; but maybe he didn't really know what to say. Understandable, I wouldn't know what to tell him, either. So that's not really a problem as far as I'm concerned.

The major problem with his character is the following: he apparently believed Sirius had betrayed James, the best friend who took him into his home after he fled Grimmauld Place, and Lily Potter; and this he believed for 12 years (there's a quote in PoA... "I wasn't Sirius' friend until tonight, when I saw Peter on the map", or something). Seems really odd. Plus, Remus was thought to be the traitor of the Order for a year at least, including by James and Lily -- one of which became an Animagus in order to keep him company at full moons, while the other is thought to be a particularly tolerant and open-minded witch, not exactly your typical stereotype-believer...

Of course, it might merely show that there was a falling-out between him and the other Marauders, after Hogwarts. I don't know.

 

I don't have anything mindboggling to add so whatever. >_>

I agree with MOST of what Tinnikins said.

Where I disagree is the "not a bad man" part. I do think he was particularly sub-standard and below average, morality wise.

He didn't have an ounce of remorse abandoning his wife and child. And that IS the only thing I can consider it. He didn't have any altruistic secondary motivations when he asked Harry to let him tag along. It was just convenient for him. And this point can be debated given that its a "war" and all, but he did openly and on numerous occasions berate Harry for NOT killing.

The line I remember most in DH concerning Lupin aside from the Child Abandonment section was him telling Harry "If you aren't at least going to kill them..." or some shit like that.


Harry, who shows an obvious respect for his opinion, is brushed aside until he is useful. Like ... Someone else said. In HBP, when Harry came to him looking for answers, he wasn't really all that helpful. But when he needed a reason to skip town, its "HAY! HARRY! HAO U DOESING?!"

Also: Peter Pettigrew, for all of his seven years at Hogwarts, was a friend probably a lot like Ron to James/Sirius/Remus. Always around ONE of them. And then in PoA, after less than a day's worth of thought, he was ready to KILL Peter, regardless of him deserving it or not.

Yeah, A friend turns on me and I'm going to beat the shit out of them, but this is an extreme.

All in all, the way I see it, Remus doesn't put too much value in the lives or opinions of anyone but himself. And as Tinn said... His "Poor Me" Complex is infuriating.

 

Now most of what you said I agree with; it was a major dick move on Remus' part to abandon Tonks when she was pregnant in the middle of a war. The mindless, self-pitying 'I'm not worthy' spiel, as you (and Tinn before you) say, most emphatically does not hold up after all the time Remus spent with people who did their utmost to prove otherwise, and he desperately needed someone to remove his head from whatever orifice it was jammed in.

The above quote however, I can't agree with. Number one, it wasn't "regardless of [Peter] deserving," death, as he quite frankly did deserve it, and I image that would have factored quite heavily into Remus' decision. I would also argue the point that his decision was made with "less than a day's worth of thought"; he had thirteen years and change of thought. Remus had thirteen years to dwell on what he believed the Order's traitor - the one responsible for the Potters' deaths - deserved. Granted he believed that traitor to be Sirius at the time, but the same thought process would largely apply, and, I believe, it is fully justifiable that he would fall back on that when forced - in anger - to make a decision regarding Peter's life. Its not an entirely rational thought process, but anger does have a tendency to work that way on occasion. Remus, particularly in DH, comes off as a bit of a prick, but he's hardly going around killing old friends - whether they 'deserve it or not - on a whim and half a thought.

 

To the people who argue that Remus never really had any in-depth, meaningful conversations with Harry: yes, it does seem like they wouldn't be very close, doesn't it. But then again, Sirius and Harry barely talk at all, too. Sure, they owled each other, and Harry talked to him in the fire once or twice, but they barely spent any time around each other. I assume that there are a lot of conversations that we miss out on.

Edit:

It's not his fault that he forgot to take the potion. Voldemort's curse on the DADA position probably coerced him into it. How else was Remus going to be retired?