Spoken true. Which is why at the beginning I said that for Harry to actually beat Riddle in a fight he must have a either a thick slice of luck or some factor that Riddle did not or could not account for or both. A wise Harry would likely find some such leverage to help him in the fight (reducing the hand of luck) and not rely on his skill and power alone, great though they may be.

He must also be wise enough to know that Voldemort would certainly not fight without some such advantage (horcruxes, for example). But such wisdom or awareness in a boy would be rather difficult to believe or explain which is where the author faces a challenge.

Edit:

@Taure: where would you rate canon Harry by the above metric?

 

I have two things of note.

The first is that fanon vastly overrates Voldemort's power. Voldemort can be defeated, and the first step to doing so is for Harry to believe that he can beat Voldemort. I personally think that every time Dumbledore or an Order member gives Harry the absolute bullshit that "There's no way you can possibly defeat Voldemort. He's way too powerful and has trained for far too long," the battle's half-lost already.

Voldemort's reputation exceeds his actual skill, as does Dumbledore's. Three skilled wizards in DH fought him to a standstill, and those three were not trained to duel - they were teachers, elderly at that, and not used to fighting as a team. Get three good Aurors trained for years as a team and, prophecy notwithstanding, Voldemort's done for.


I think a 7th year Harry could be as powerful as an Auror who hasn't trained for seven years at school. Which leads to my second point: circumstances are essential in a duel. Take those same three Aurors. If they were in a safehouse that's been ambushed by Death Eaters, seen their comrades die before their eyes, and now have Voldemort himself stalking them, there's no way they can win. They're too terrified to fight effectively. If, on the other hand, they're doing the stalking, and Voldemort is all by himself and finding out that the Aurors are far better than he expects, the inverse occurs.

The most important circumstance is the element of surprise. Voldemort lost in canon because Harry's rebirth shocked him so much he wasn't thinking rationally. Dumbledore died in canon because he was surprised by Malfoy. Even the best wizard is dead if he's AK'd before he knows what's happening. If, when fighting Voldemort, Harry and his team get off a good first shot that severely damages Voldemort before Voldemort's aware of what's happened, they're well on the path to victory.

And preparation is also essential. If Harry and his comrades drink Felix Felicus and a strengthening potion, put on their armor, and bring healing potions and magical bombs, they've got several advantages Voldemort does not. If one wizard can effectively shake Voldemort's concentration during the middle of the duel (e.g. revealing that they've destroyed the Horcruxes) and another immediately hits him with a good curse, there's absolutely no way they're gonna lose.

Power matters when dueling. But surprise matters more.

 

Read my first post I explicitly state that this is not going to happen.

 

1. They didn't fight him to a standstill. If you read carefully, you'll notice that Voldemort is landing curses on them over and over again. Only Harry's sacrificial protection, which prevents Voldemort from harming anyone, is what protects them. Even with that, Voldemort is still able to knock them around.

2. The "they're teachers, not trained duelists" thing doesn't really wash, considering that all of the most powerful wizards we know of are teachers (even Voldemort aspired to it). Dumbledore wasn't a trained Auror either, but he took out two of the Ministry's best with a single spell. Besides, the key factor in dueling appears to be competence at magic, which teachers are, ignoring people like Lockhart, very good at.

3. Only 2 were teachers, actually. Kingsley was an Auror - possibly the best Auror, judging by the fact that he appears to have led the resistance against Voldemort.

4. Age doesn't affect magical skill.

I agree that Voldemort's skill is exaggerated in the public mind in the Harry Potter world, but nowhere near to the extent that you say. There are (or were) a few wizards who were perhaps near enough to him in skill to be able to hold their own against him, but not for long (Snape perhaps, and Amelia Bones).

Things such as surprise wouldn't phase him as much as you seem to think. Wizards have lighting-fast reflexes, remember, and it's very hard for them to get the drop on each other (see Snape vs. McGonagall in DH).

I would say that no 3 Aurors could take Voldemort, no matter what the circumstances (baring unconsciousness or severe prior injury a la Dumbledore). In fact, I'd say that no quantity of Aurors could do so, simply because there comes a point where more numbers means nothing.

I think you're assuming dueling to be more like Muggle gunfighting than it is. Wands do a lot more than shoot single-shot straight-vector attacks. You're forgetting area effect magic, using the environment to your advantage, and the whole plethora of magic that isn't directly related to combat, but very useful.

Bit of a simplification. Dumbledore died in canon because he was weakened by the potion, was already dying and had a plan in which his death was designed to occur.

Not really. By the time Harry was resurrected, Voldemort had already lost. The moment of Voldemort's ultimate defeat was the moment that he failed to take into account the power of sacrifice, once again.

Voldemort isn't allowed to prepare?

 

He is allowed but he would not consider it. His belief in his own ability and his arrogance would stop him from doing that.

 

I disagree with that. Voldemort is constantly planning ahead, preparing for the future. He doesn't just stride into situations mindlessly and improvise/react.

 

I don't think the text says that, but you may be right.

That's why you bring a team.

The point remains. At the point Harry believes he stands absolutely no chance against Voldemort, he's already lost. Several trained wizards, under circumstances they create, can beat Voldemort. It's just that they don't think they can.

By definition, surprise is to get the drop. It's the unexpected. And I do say that the attack on Snape was the least bit unexpected by Snape. He knew they hated him, and he presumably was on his guard.

On the other hand, if Voldemort is ambushed or surprised when he doesn't expect it, that's surprise. And often, it's followed by panic or something to that effect. Voldemort cannot win when he's too panicked to duel to his full extent.

Once again, circumstances are the number one factor. If Voldemort kills five Aurors with no obvious effort (i.e. through a pre-planned ritual), a hundred Aurors will not be able to defeat him. They will be too fearful to attack; they'll run away.

But I think that what entertainment and especially fantasy in general does, which is reflected in your point, is to make the common soldier cannon fodder. An extremely strong hero or villain is never killed by the cannon fodder. The stray arrow (out of thousands shot) never hits. The factor of fatigue is nonexistent. Careless mistakes by the hero or villain never happen when faced with cannon fodder. It never takes more than ten seconds to kill an unnamed character.

That doesn't reflect reality. Cannon fodder does not exist. Every unnamed soldier is a human being, with unique abilities and strengths. And chances are, after hours of relentless fighting, Voldemort will be severely hurt by a mistake of his making by, not the hero, but an ordinary wizard.

Because of his shock, he wasn't thinking rationally.

Nope. He's ambushed.

 

Ambushed, just like that. Hmm...the thing is, I'd say that you'd have to have the drop on Voldemort to be able to ambush him in the first place, and the only way to get the drop on him is by ambushing him.

In a time where he is the most wanted man in Britain, he's going to always be expecting attack. He won't panic. Lord Voldemort does not panic. He's too arrogant for that. Even if 100 Aurors suddenly dropped out of the sky to surround him, I doubt he'd panic. What he probably would do, though, is apparate away.

And then there's the added element of protective spells. The only way to ambush Voldemort would be while he's on the move, but while he's on the move he'll be more alert than if he was sitting in the Malfoy's living room.

I just don't think that someone like Voldemort is as prone to freaking out as you say. As you yourself note, it's about the mindset. And Voldemort's mindset is not one that is easily panicked.

I'm not so sure about that. The narrative specifically notes that he tilts his head to the side in consideration, as if wondering what will happen when he casts the killing curse. I'd say that he fails to take into account the power of sacrifice because he does not deem it worthy of notice: in his mental checklist of "things to look out for", people sacrificing themselves is not on there.

Voldemort had a team too though.

 

One could make the comparison that while Hermione and Percy are extremely studious, we see Dumbledore and Voldemort described as brilliant.

For someone who obviously has a sufficiently good grasp on these subjects to become an examiner to comment that Dumbledore did things with a wand she'd never seen before suggests more than just damn good study habits. And I'd compare Voldemort to Dumbledore here--prodigious magical skill, as well as being very studious.

That'd be hard for anyone without a particular interest in learning to replicate in himself, regardless of his own magical prowess. I'd say if you wanted to make a Harry who's both grown into his own 'power' and learned enough to make it worthwhile...you'd have to write very convincingly about his motivations. Of course at the end of CoS, he's just faced Voldemort again and should probably be realizing (or at least preparing for the possibility) that it will keep happening. He damn near lost someone he cares about (in the abstract, as Ron's sister), so the ability to protect himself and his friends should be pretty damned appealing at this point. Plenty of motivation right there...not to mention there's always the revenge factor to use as well.

Highly motivated people generally do well at whatever they set their minds to. Give us a highly motivated, studious, and skilled Harry Potter (the anti-thesis of canon HP, really), and we might believe more about the surge of Harry's skill as a wizard.

 

I also don't recall Voldemort being easily accessible. I don't recall him ever just strolling through the countryside, and alerting everyone to where he is.

To ambush him (doubtful) you'd have to know where he is, and I doubt he'd be anywhere where he couldn't escape rather easily.

...I don't know why I'm restating this. I agree with Taure.

 

*cough* Snape *cough*

 

Just saw this:

I'd say that Harry has greater "creative intelligence" than Hermione, but less technical ability, less knowledge/worse memory, a lower ability to comprehend, and a less academic/analytic intelligence.

I'd say Harry is about average (whereas Hermione I said was averagely good - competent, but nothing of special note).

Of course, this has to be adjusted for the fact that most wizards appear to be retards unable to cast an OWL-level charm (the shield charm). With this taken into account, Harry is averagely good, Hermione is good and Dumbledore is, in the worlds of Unreal Tournament, wicked sick.

Considering that Dumbledore considered Snape's position within Voldemort's organisation to be worth more than even his own life, I doubt anyone would act on any information that Snape could give - and thus compromise him - unless there was a 100% chance of success.

This made me remember the fact that the Aurors did try to covertly track Dumbledore, and that he made short work of them.

 

One more thing that adds advantage to Voldemort - he is a master of possession. Even if 100 Aurors surrounded him, he could simply possess one, bring discord into the ranks by making the host to attack comrades, getting the host killed, then possess another, etc..

 

Could Voldemort possess someone if he has a body? We've only seen Quirrel and that was due to his spirit form. The only other case is possessing something that already contains his soul fragment, such as Nagani and Harry.

 

He did it to Harry in OotP, and showed no signs of being aware of a soul fragment, nor any surprise at being able to posses him.

 

Another thing Harry has going for him is that he is pretty level-headed in life or death situations. It's one thing to levitate a feather in class when nothing but house points are on the line, it's something else entirely to levitate a brick in the air just right so that it intercepts an incoming killing curse.

Also, a lot of what makes Voldemort so impressive is non-combat related stuff (horcruxes, dark mark, inferi, legilimency, Taboo, flying, etc.). Absent some plot device Harry's not going to match that, and he's not going to be able to engage in a Shezza style duel where he breaks out tons of spells and counterspells. But he could be pretty effective, if boring, by focusing on true mastery of a limited set of spells (killing curse, fiendfyre, crude transfiguration, apparition, some defensive spells) and keeping his shit together when he fights.

That said, the "good in a crisis" thing has been done to death (though not quite as much as its cousin, "quidditch-honed reflexes"), so handle with care.

 

This thread, with it both Beledorhan and Taure's points, reminds me very much of Sun Tzu's "The Art of War". Greater emphasis on speed, intelligence gathering, subterfuge, knowing the land, and using the situation to your advantage...


I don't know why I said that.
Edit: Well, not Taure's points as much...
As Taure pretty much derailed this thread:
Back OnTopic, Harry could be much better than in canon if he actually tried, but I don't think he'd be anywhere near Dumbledore's level. That said, Sun Tzu's Art of War. Good grasp of basic warfare tactics and strategies could help immensely, as it is a rebellion, not an all-out war. Ambushes, Guerilla Tactics, spies, sabotage... You know, the usual.

Liar... lolz

 

@ Taure: I don't agree that canon Harry is just a competent wizard or a poorer wizard than Hermione/Percy (at least not where DADA is concerned - he is far ahead of the pack there both in skill and knowledge, even without having much academic interest in magic). So while I agree that academically Harry is just average (or competent), overall I think he is actually better than good.

Edit:
Or perhaps it is that I can't accept that a mediocre wizard can defeat a skilled and powerful dark lord; no matter what manipulative games Dumbledore played.

@Insanity: Since it is clear that Harry cannot match Riddle in terms of knowledge, you should have him obtain the motivation to broaden his skills outside of Defense. While that would still mean getting him to let go of his slacking when it comes to learning, don't make him a book-worm like Hermione/Percy. I think someone already stated in this thread that the desire to be good and belief in oneself is most important to having great skill. Maybe you should work those in.

 

I don't think that is completely validated. The battle of Department of Mysteries showed none of them (with the possible exception of Bellatrix) having lightning fast reflexes. In fact, most of them went down pretty easily. No duel lasted more than a few minutes, their dodging was only what you would expect from a normal human.

As for Snape and McGonagall, we know Snape is one of the better Death Eaters and the way he was able to neutralise Harry in HBP shows he is a very good duellist (the same Harry was able to land curses on several Death Eaters in the Department of Mysteries, while he made no impression on Snape). We don't know enough about McGonagall, but it stands to reason that Dumbledore's deputy would exhibit at least a modicum of competence. I don't think you can draw general inferences from a battle between some of the best on either side.

 

Yes, and JKR finds that to be far more admirable than evil book learning. The dumber and more awful at magic Harry is, the more triumphant his "emotional victory" becomes.

It's silly to argue that Harry is incompetent and hold him to the standards of our world while ignoring the fact that the author has created a world where incompetence is something of a virtue provided it comes with the appropriate bravery.