Taure, I have got to ask. Have we ever agreed on anything?

Also, on the Merciel bit. Meciel is a fallen angel, you dont get much more evil than that. Meciel has made Harry into what he is. Without Meciel Harry would being nothing like what he is now.

Remember, Meciel already has a hold on him. At this point she is more than likely able to do extreme damage to his mind if he rejected her and she didnt manage to fully take over.


Genocide. Hate to break it to you, but if an entire tribe of people tried to KILL me? And I had the means to kill them. You had best believe that I would choose me over them.

 

I don't know. Who are you?

You don't? It seems to me that all you have to do to be a Fallen angel is to say that God shouldn't be able to dictate everything. In fact there are many indicators that Meciel rebelled against God because of love (for the children of the Nephalim?)

Dresden canon says different (Sanya).

Or, there's always the option of run away, disable, fight the enchatment that was holding them...

Harry fighting against the merepeople wasn't really self-defence. It was slaughter.

 

Oh, i forgot about the Merpeople.

D:

 

For fucks sake, its MECIEL, not Merciel. ugh.

Secondly, you are making random shit up, its not working.

 

Vengashii, I gotta say, nice damn sig

 

Erm, genocide is the complete wipe-out of a specific race/whatever. Do merpeople only live in the Hogwarts lake? I was under the impression that there was just a large tribe that happened to live there.

And anyways... aside from that, I agree with Taure. He killed everyone in the village. Including the children, I think.

 

Incorrect. Godwin's law is about to come into effect. The Nazis committed genocide with respect to the Jews (which is if fact the source of the word genocide, according to the dictionary I'm reading). I'm looking around and I'm still seeing Jews.

 

Genocide is defined as the intent to destroy a particular national, religious, ethnic, or racial group and actions taken pursuing that course. Harry eradicated the entire community, which is most certainly genocide under the definition. The reason it isn't mass murder is that the lake merpeople are the only merpeople in a reasonably wide area, and they function as an independent community, a "nation" if you will. When they were completely eradicated, it meant the extinction of merpeople in northern Scotland. Genocide.

 

We could continue even further and say that in this (morality) line, Voldemort is black, Dumbledore is (mostly) white and Harry is between the two in grey.

I would say that he follows somekind of moral code, even if somewhat bizarre one. He kills people sure, but mostly only those who have tried in some way to hurt him first. Contrast that to Voldemort or Nicodemus who are willing to kill even pure non-combatants who do them (or anyone) no harm.

I was under the impression that the wizard who wanted Meciels coin had utterly destroyed the minds of the merpeople beyond recovery so "fighting the enchantment" was not a real option. Likewise disabling did not seem to work, I think Cedric tried that infact and nearly died as a result (Harry saved him by killing his attacker just in time). As for running away, what makes you think the merpeople would not have followed him or just attacked anyone around such as the spectators or students.

I do agree that Harrys behaviour afterwards was twisted such as the fact that he dismissed their deaths and said they were not really "people". Ofcourse I always thought that it was OOC for Harry to dismiss non-human groups considering that he actually had a non-human living in his head.

 

Stop right there, you basically just proved Taure correct. Were the previous page and a half of rhetoric truly necessary?

Anyway, point and case: Hitler. I'm sure he loved his art and cousin, but he is still viewed as evil.

...I'm off to read the short update.

 

I wouldn't call Harry evil. Despite all his talk we have yet to see him killing anyone for pure fun. He even has some idiots stay in McDonalds in TDR just because they don't get killed in his fight with one crazed denarian. Other than that, there was mention of merpeople. Imho self-defense covers it. Instead of freeing them of whatever spell was controlling them, what me might have not been able to do, he dealt with the problem the only way he knew, by killing things that tried to kill him.
That said I disagree with calling Meciel evil (or pure evil, at least), evil doesn't care much about playing by rules and we all know why Amanda & family lived past chapter 10 in TDR (besides plot needs).

One actually did, there was Dumbledore transfiguring flying tridents into things.

BTW: Dumbledore is as much responsible for Harry's actions on behalf of Order as Harry is, and I didn't see much of you telling that he is evil.

Edit: Oh, and please, tell me why would pure evil character help abused kid and give him money (christmas in TDK).

 

I must say I'm a bit confused as to where this "pure evil" thing has come from. I explicitly said that Harry is humanly evil, in that he does good actions as well as evil ones. Like a real evil person does. Like a said before, if a serial killer helps an old lady across a street, does that absolve him of his evil acts? No. In many ways the number of good things Harry does is irrelevant.

I should say that I find Harry's evil to be much worse than Voldemort's evil too, in that human evil is always much more frightening to read than cartoon evil.

 

So you would call him... moderately evil Taure? Yeah, we have a word for that, dark.

 

No. I think the idea of moderate evil is a misleading phrase which implies that "he's really not so bad". While it's true that some acts are more evil than others, a "moderately evil" act is still an evil one. I'd just call him evil and leave it at that. That some people are more evil doesn't mean that Harry isn't.

As for the "dark" thing, excuse me a moment of intellectual snobbery when I ask you to point out the moral philosophy that utilises that.

As it is, it seems to be defined by Harry Potter fanfiction usage, in which it usually refers to using evil means to achieve an end: thus you can be "dark but lightsided" in that you're using evil means to achieve a non-evil end, or just plain "old dark and evil". The implication is that if you're dark but lightsided you're not an evil person, you're just a bit...well, what? "Dark"? But as we just said, dark is really just a way of saying using evil means to an end, so you would be evil, unless we say that the means doesn't matter.

This seems to be some kind of twist on consequentialism, effectively saying that the real morality is located in the end, and what means is used to arrive there is largely irrelevent to morality. I think this is clearly false.

 

Don't go there. In most of these fics this "dark" Harry cries a river because he has to *murder* T.R.

As far as I see it: Harry only kills (and doesn't try to preserve life - being dark here, not necessarily evil, unless you call all people supporting death penalty evil) people/demons/things that wished him harm. He even tries to avoid collateral damage (this isn't exactly evil thing to do, imo).
I don't really know whether you see his not caring about other people (or caring about them as much as they cared about him when he was in need) as evil, or his permanent way of dealing with enemies.

On a side note, I'm guessing whether Harry will use Fidelius charm to protect his apartment this time. I mean, it was in grimoire he got from AD and he is probably skilled enough to cast it (especially with Meciel helping him).

 

There is not one thing that I point to an say "this is what makes Harry evil". It's a combination of factors. The fact that he kills when it isn't necessary to do so. The fact that he feels no remorse about this. The fact that he enjoys killing.

Re: Fidelius - I doubt he can cast the spell. Not for lack of skill, but for lack of one of the requirements of the spell - having sufficient trust in someone to entrust them with the secret of your location.

 

Is it really necessary? I thought that in the books, Dumbledore cast the fidelius and was the secret keeper at the same time, implying that an extremely powerfull wizard could both cast the spell and declare himself the secret keeper.

Either way, I wonder if Harry could cast the spell and make Meciel the secret keeper. I mean strictly speaking they are two completely separate people, even if one lives in the head of the other.

 

And on that note could Harry (theoretically) with Meciel's permission turn a Denarian coin into Horcrux? It is practically indestructible and would make a perfect vessel. And Meciel still would have a hold over two pieces of soul, so she doesn't lose anything and gains truly immortal host.

 

Why should he feel remorse for killing people wishing him harm? He isn't an idiot and knows that if he doesn't kill f.e. Vesper now, it'll bite him later.

He enjoys killing - and yet, he doesn't go and kill people on left and right, that speaks for itself, doesn't it?

About Fidelius - he is very powerful now, with Meciel he doesn't lack skill/concentration. I'm not sure whether Fidelius need diffrent caster and keeper (Dumbledore is keeper of Grimmuald Place, and it's probably he who cast it), but even then he can make Meciel his keeper (or vice versa), or, in worst case scenario, he can use someone who already knows his address and isn't likely to attack him (other Knights, for example - they left some files in his apartment; Dumbledore is an option too, as Harry knows he wont even try to stop him as long as T.R. is not dead).

Meciel doesn't seem too keen on that idea.

Spoiler

“That’s very interesting,” Harry murmured. When Dumbledore regarded him carefully, Harry rolled his eyes. “Oh, relax, not even I’m that stupid. Besides, technically I don’t even own a soul.”

“Ah,” Dumbledore said in understanding. He stroked his beard, regarding Harry curiously. “Are you saying that the Fallen that inhabits your body would disapprove?”

‘Of course I would,’ Meciel spoke into his mind with a sniff. ‘I would not barter away such a valuable possession for the twisted power and knowledge of the J’irth’kyaka,’

‘You know them?’

‘I know of them,’ Meciel answered, and there a tone of disgust in her voice. ‘Half-twisted creatures of creation, failed products of life who’s souls were never properly formed. As such, they can enter neither heaven nor hell. They; can never find peace in their tormented lives. They are immortal, ageless and in constant agony. Those pitiful excuses of existence have nothing to offer one such as myself except their hatred, their jealousy, their anger. It’s a wonder how Voldemort managed to stay relatively sane when bartering with such things.’