Ok. I need some help from you Deathly Hallows canon experts.

Long story short, on another forum, I got in an argument with someone over whether or not Harry liked Snape by the end of the book.

Yes, in the *gag* epilogue we find out that Harry named one of his children after him. But in rereading the book, I cannot find any indication that Harry had anything more than respect for the man.

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

 

... Harry didn't LIKE Snape, He was an ass no matter what he did in his life, doesn't make him any less of a asshole, He also named his kid after a manipulative gay old man, So he can't love the kid that much.


But as to his feelings on Snape I think it was more out of respect for a asshole but one that did some good.

 

Defensive? I stated almost the exact same thing you did.

 

There are many different kinds of like.

I don't think Harry liked Snape on a personal level (i.e. not like friends like each other), but nor do I think that Harry held merely respect for him, much as he would hold respect for, say, Voldemort's abilities while still disliking him as a person.

Because the problem is that which Harry holds respect for is not Snape's abilities but Snape's character - the hard choices he made out of guilt and love.

So I think that not only does Harry respect Snape, but he also thinks of him as a "good person". Having respect for someone's character isn't quite the same as being friends with them, but I think it's enough to say that you like them.

 

I think Rowling definitely wants you to take away from the epilogue that not only Harry respected Snape but admired him. He told his son something along the lines that I have named you after the bravest men I know -someone will post the line I am sure- I think that is a huge indication of where he stands on Snape.

Rowling shied away from showing us Harry's reaction when he first finds out Snape was the one to tell Voldemort the prophecy. So all we have to go on is the epilogue much later.

I would like to the think that Syaoran's interpretation is correct, because it is more human and complex; but I feel as if Rowling wants to show Harry as having forgiven or at least in admiration of Snape.

I really wish Rowling had shown Harry's reaction to Dumbledore's revelation about why he trusted Snape - that would have been an excellent place to show the birth of that complicated reaction that Syao talked about.

In the end I was kinda left with there being no moment of "oh, I have changed my mind" between him despising Snape and naming his kid after him. Pretty much like I thought the transition between Book 5 and 6 was abrupt.

In the end Harry does think Snape is a good person, admires him, and respects him. Whether he would have tea with him is anyone's guess.

 

Choosing what is right over what is easy anyone? Snape made the "right" choice and came back to help Dumbledore at a great personal, professional and social risk. He could have taken the easy way and stuck with Voldemort.



Or he could have done the intelligent thing. And ignored what he had overheard. This was Trelawny after all. For someone who is supposedly intelligent, he did a big dunderhead move by telling the Dark Lord.

Voldemort's actions would have differed entirely and he may have not been whispified TM had he not been told then. Also most of Voldemort's obsession for the majority of the books was the prophecy or killing Harry. If Snape hadn't told Voldemort, there is a high chance that Voldemort would have never even heard of it...like most of the prophecies in the DoM.


If he had truly cared for Lilly he would have kept his friggen mouth shut. He held information for years from Voldemort don't tell me he wouldn't be able to keep it from him. And therein lies the difference. Snape did not love Lily. He was obsessed with her. If he truly loved her he would have wanted her to be safe, happy and alive. Or he could have swallowed his pride and treated Harry like a human being. Not necessarily favoring him but treating him like he treats everyone else. Could you honestly tell me that Lily would have been happy with Snape's treatment of her son?


When he overheard the prophecy he saw a chance to further himself in the eyes of the Dark Lord. He would have figured it out that it would have been either Harry or Neville as most of the pureblood's knew who was being born when for betroths and the what not. So if he knew that there was a chance that it was Harry, he wouldn't have said anything. Let alone spill his part of the prophecy and then come crying to the Headmaster when he realized that his actions may actually hurt people. That it was no longer a game. His actions are just like the blond headed ponce that was Harry's nemesis, and got off to name his child Scorpius. All we need is Malfoy teaching Potions and we can officially hit ourselves over the head with the book.







Bottom Line? Snape is and will always be a hook nosed greasy haired bastard. IMO Snape is the true evil in this series because he's only out for himself. At least with Voldemort and Bella you know where they stand, you know what they are going to do. With Snape it's impossible. And having Harry call him one of the two people he respected most is just JKR trying to salvage his character and not speak ill of the dead. Personally Fluffy should have finished what she started with Snapes leg in year 1.

 

Whoa...

...Fluffy was a girl?

 

Meh it really doesn't say boy or girl.



Hagrid has the slip up that says play 'em a bit of music and he'll fall straight to sleep.


But an off hand reference said quickly doesn't always mean gender. I just assumed. Just as how Dragons were female, I thought Hagrid had a female Cerberus.


If it is a boy and it pisses that many people off i'll edit it if need be

 

I think this is only true to an extent.

For a lot of Snape's life, he's been only out for himself. Even when he does what we would call a good act, it's usually out of a selfish motive. So, for example, when he tattles to Dumbledore and becomes DUmbledore's spy, it's because he wants Lily. When Dumbledore asks him about Harry and James, Snape says he doesn't care.

At least he's honest.

However, it terms of his conduct after the first war, we see a change in his motivations. Lily is dead, yet he continues to stay on Dumbledore's side, even to the point of dying for the cause, even though he most likely agrees with a lot of what Voldemort is doing in terms of ideals, solely because he is honouring the memory of the person he loved.

There's no selfish motive there during the second war. I'm not sure if you could say that he's trying to redeem himself, but he is certainly trying to be a better person for Lily.

Giving up your life for the memory of a person you once loved is not the act of an evil man. Moreover, it's inevitable that the person you gave your life for (Harry) is going to at least respect you/like you, if not consider you a friend. At Harry's perception of Snape is, after all, what this thread is about.

Finally, here's a little character analysis of Snape that I wrote a few months back.

The final paragraph is, I think, a key one to understanding Snape's character in terms of what we see of him in the books.

 

I agree this is probably what JKR was aiming for. I suppose it comes down to a question of motivations. I just never saw any sign that Snape progressed morally beyond his obsession with Lily Potter to recognizing that the things he had done were simply wrong. It was clear he felt regret for the way things turned out, but there was never any sign he recognized the moral wrongness of the actions themselves.

Given his lack of development, it's much easier to see his "amazing bravery" as the product of a man obsessed with fixing a mistake he made 15 years before rather than a someone with a sense of morals who felt obliged to take great risks because it was the right thing to do.

 

I was shocked when Harry had a change of feelings about Snape? Buddy, don't you remember the time he made you and your friends lives miserable during your Hogwarts years? And how he blamed you for everything because you look like James, his oh so EEEVVVILLL bully? *rolls eyes*

Maybe Harry didn't respect Snape after all. Maybe the real reason he named his kid after the two most manipulative gits in the history of the wizarding world is because he is on crack at the time?

 

Do we ever learn why Dumbledore truly trusts Snape? We see the moment of repentance in the memories, but were there any oaths exchanged? At this point I can't remember if it's canon or fanon that Snape swore an oath to protect Harry.

As far as Harry's perception of Snape goes, the 'Albus Severus' thing shocked me too. It's one thing for Harry to realize why Snape would betray Voldemort, but that still doesn't forgive the years of horrific treatment he suffered at Snape's hands. He made Harry's life miserable, and played an indirect role in Sirius' death. Even the help Snape gives him on the horcrux hunt seems motivated by a promise to Dumbledore rather than bravery or a sense of morality.

On a related note, how retarded was it for Dumbledore's entire plan to hinge on Snape's being there to help Harry on the horcrux hunt? He was relying on Snape to get him the sword of Gryffindor, the location of a horcrux, and the news that he's a horcrux? What if Snape hadn't been made headmaster? Or had been outed as a spy? Or slipped in the fricking bathtub and cracked his skull?

 

It was my reading that Dumbledore never did trust Snape. Almost loathed him, in fact. But he knew him and was able to predict him and control his actions. He trusted Snape like a zookeeper trusts the lions.

 

I never got that from Canon. Ever. It's also not in Dumbledore's character to loathe in the way you describe. I don't know of a single other character, even Voldemort, who I could honestly say Dumbledore loathes.

More so, I got the opposite. The fact that Snape was such an intensely intricate part of the DH plot line and Voldemort's fall shows how completely Dumbledore trusted Snape. Dumbledore was willing to leave everything to Snape, even going so far as asking Snape to help stage his own murder.

 

Sounds like loathing to me.

I'll admit you're partially right though. As time goes by Snape "softens" and accordingly so does Dumbledore's opinion of him.

I suppose their are different kinds of trust. I agree with you that Dumbledore trusted Snape in the way you describe. I just don't really think that this is true trust.

There is trust because you take a leap of faith in someone. Then there is trust because you know someone so well that you can trust them to act in certain ways and so on. Trust from faith and trust from knowledge.

I don't think Dumbledore's trust of Snape was the former. He didn't have faith in Snape, he knew Snape.

I find myself quoting BSG again:

Dumbledore's trust of Snape was never this kind of trust.

 

Horrific treatment? The guy was a jackass and bullied him but it's overstating it a bit to call his treatment horrific.

What role are you talking about? If I remember correctly, and I could be completely misremembering OOTP, but wasn't Snape trying to help and he had to act like he wasn't for Umbridge's sake and Harry rushed off before Snape had a chance to help?

Isn't this what morals are though? I mean I have my morals because I want my parents to be proud of me and because I want other people to like and respect me, and I'm sure you have yours for similar reasons. So how is this any different than Snape having his because he wants wants Lily to be proud of him?

 

Taure: I think that just like Harry -though of course with many more years of wisdom to help release the burden of hate, Dumbledore's opinion on Snape transformed from one extreme to the other.

Snape may have disgusted him at the beginning, but seeing how love can affect even a man who as fallen so far no doubt reminded Dumbledore of what he was fighting for in the first place. More so, it probably made it easier to trust Snape after his own failures in his youth, and I mean the true kind of trust.

Everyone makes mistakes, even those as Gandalf-esque as Dumbledore, and a man who then devoted his life to both teaching and defeating evil in the world is the kind of person Dumbledore most admires. I think that such feelings were misplaced at points with Snape, and often blinded him towards how the potion's master was treating his students (something that an in-character Dumbledore would never have truly stood for).

Then again, my points are all conjecture based off of their relationship in books six and seven. Your canon always beats my arbitrary feelings on the matter....

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait just a second. IIRC, the prophecy was made in the summer of 1979. This was before Harry was even conceived. If we assume he told Voldemort immediately, there is no possible way he could have known who it referred to, unless he himself was a Seer.