Nefar: Thank you for your opinion. I now feel like a complete dunce for not getting it. One thing, the 'happy goth.' You are aware that my name, GothOddity, comes not from the fact that I'm goth, but that I like the album of the same name that was released in tribute to David Bowie. Just thought I'd let you know. I did know the history of General Custer, but did not think to relate it to 'southwest DC.'

Justblaise: I do see your point. I suppose that since I've been reading Harry Potter since I was 7 I know the books so well that I find plot holes when there really aren't any. Plus I hate Dumbledore and welcome anything that is his fault.

 

I hope you are aware that was just a terrible, long winded joke.

 

This.

Wow...

 

No duh. I guess I forgot to add the little 'sarcasm' note. I thought people would get it. Oh well. I'll add it now. My response to Nefar was SARCASM people.

 

I luuuurve this thread.

 

Here is a little plot hole that I'm curious about and have not seen mentioned yet.

Voldemort's wand.

We can assume that he had his wand when he went to the Potters home. Seeing as he was intending to finish off the child who could someday defeat him, I think it only fair to assume that he brought his 'chosen' wand as opposed to any others he might have had.

Assuming such, when the killing curse backfired we are informed the first book that the Potter home barely survived and Voldemort's body was blasted to kingdom come.

Now even supposing that Voldemort's wand 'magically' survived that backlash, where did it go. Obviously either Dumbledore, Hagrid or Sirius were the first on the scene. I can't see Dumbledore leaving the Dark Lord's wand lying about. Pocket it or destroy it seems the best course.

But I'll go even further here. Let us suppose that the Light side didn't find it, perhaps thinking it destroyed. Perhaps, you'll say, one of Voldemort's minions claimed it. But who? We know that most of the inner circle at the time immediately began attempting to cover their own asses, making claims of bewitchment. And, those that were still loyal, The Lestranges for example, would be sent to Azkaban not much later.

Herein lies the rub. How then did Peter Pettigrew manage to reclaim said wand for his Master. Due to the 'brother wand' incident in the graveyard we can be assured that Voldemort used his old wand, not to mention the 'old friend' line he states when Pettigrew hands it over.

Now I'm certain that one could compose a crazy story involving some peddler finding the wand and then later Voldemort and Pettigrew attempting to find it. (Perhaps that explains the long months involved in waiting to bring Harry to him.) But doesn't it all seem very confusing.

And another aspect that troubled me regarding Voldemort's wand after reading DH.

How does Pettigrew use it?

In the graveyard Voldemort says, "Kill the Spare," Peter casts the curse and good ol' Cedric gets kicked off this mortal coil.

We know, from the Priori Incantatem, that Cedric was killed with Voldemort's wand, otherwise his ghost like figure wouldn't have emerged and asked his request that Harry 'return his body'.

But knowing what we know now (post DH wand theory) How can we be expected to believe that Peter Pettigrew, who wasn't much of a wizard in the first place, was able to cast a powerful curse like the Killing curse using a wand that a) wasn't his chosen wand, and b) he had not 'won' from the Dark Lord.

Frankly the entire wand theory introduced in DH seems rather tacked on and was rarely substantiated during the rest of the books. Which was a disappointment considering JKR's strength always seemed to be in her abilty to plant clues in earlier books. If wand theory was going to be important later there were plenty of oppurtunities throughout the books to make more mention to it. (During the fourth book for instance when Harry and Voldemort's wands connect. Some seeds of information could have been planted then.)

 

Severly old hat.

 

Another plot-hole would be how exactly parseltongue works. Nevermind Ron being able to speak it, but how would any snake "hear" it? As far as my five minutes research taught me, the only sense remotely similar to audition would be their ability to sense vibrations on the ground with the lower part of their body.

perhaps some kind of advanced legimency or some magic-induced-hypnosis?

 

I always figured that Peter accompanied Voldemort to Godric's Hollow. He might have been right behind Voldemort, or perhaps he waited outside. Peter might have sneaked in to investigate after the house came down, recognized the wand and grabbed it. I *would* have expected Peter to murder Harry: rage or impulse or whatever in that circumstance though.

It isn't unreasonable to presume that Peter was knocked unconscious (by wild magic, by concussion of explosion, by flying debris.) In that case, Peter went in after Sirius came and got the baby, but before the responding Aurors arrived.

Then Peter would have transformed into Scabbers and kept both wands on his person for the next decade. If so, he might have been able to use it, more or less, through simple propinquity.

 

I think the lack of prior information about wand lore is even more egregious when one recalls her claims of having written the ending scene of the series several years prior (even going so far as to state that the final word was 'scar'). She knew how the final showdown was going to shake down and that it would involve the two wands in some profound fashion, yet she didn't see fit to presage this in her series at all.

To be fair, other major things introduced in the last books didn't have much foreshadowing. The concepts of Hallows in book 7 and Horcruxes in book 6 came out of the blue. Legilimency/Occlumency were invented essentially from scratch in book 5. All played major roles in the stories, yet were pretty much "on the spot" inventions. It's a weakness and a strength in her writing: A weakness in that it evinces a lack of planning and leads to less integration among the books than there could be; a strength (particularly early in the series) in that there was always wonder and novelty in the magical world, more for a reader to discover with each new book. Unfortunately, the bulk of the fundamentally new ideas were introduced in books 1 and 7, not 1 and 2, as it should have been. DH should have leaned more toward integration, as would any good finale to a series.

Oh come now. Next you're going to tell me that the serpent in the Garden of Eden wasn't real or couldn't possibly have spoken with Eve. That's just crazy talk.

 

Regarding the wand--Rowling explicitly states in that Leaky Cauldron chat that came out after DH that Pettigrew hung on to it after Voldemort's little accident in '81. She didn't say where the rat stashed it for all those years, but only that he had, in hopes of currying favor when and if Voldemort rose again.

 

Heh. This thread is so entertaining.

 

Inferno: You should know that when you resurrect an old thread with little to say except "I like this thread," you are engaging in a form of thread necrophilia.

Please give dead threads peace. Dick-teasing them by waking them for nothing is just cruel, enough so that someone will probably come flame you for your indiscretion. I believe this subject is covered in one of the stickies; you are well advised to read them, as it will make your stay here involve fewer people wishing to cram sand in your vagina.

 

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, I don't even know whether to call it a plot hole or not. I'll just mention this as a doubt.

In PS, almost half the book is about Quirrel(?)/Voldemort trying to find out what protections are guarding the stone and how to overcome them. A very definite problem for Voldemort was how to get past Fluffy. If I remember correctly, he gets Hagrid drunk and bribes him a Dragon egg to get the 'secret' out of him. That was also a lightbulb-over-the-head moment for Harry.

Why didn't Voldemort use Leglimency on Hagrid to find this information from him?


Even better, the Dark lord would have been curious when Hagrid brought Harry to the Leaky cauldron and would've taken at least a cursory glance at Hagrid's mind. He would've found out about the stone and then stolen it from Hagrid. Much easier to steal something during transportation, especially from a gullible Hagrid.

Personally, this proves one of the two points for me:

1) JKR pulled leglimency/occlumency directly out of her ass, just for OotP.

2)Dumbledore/Snape taught Hagrid occlumency. Hagrid could have taught Harry occlumency.

 

If I'm not mistaken, you're points are taken directly from fanon, as there is no such thing as 'cursory glance' - Leglimency is as blunt as any spell. Also, I doubt Hagrid knows Occlumency as he doesn't have control over his emotions whatsoever.

 

I think you forgot Hagrid is a half-giant. Giants are spell resistant and it's difficult to perform magic against them. Usually it takes lot of effort to subdue one of them when compared to average wizards. I think they are naturally resistant against mind-magic.

Thats why Voldemort not used Legilimency against Hagrid. While Voldemort can find it through harry, the scar pain will make it difficult for him to come in close contact with harry.

Before OOTP there are lot of clues about mind reading, like both Voldemort and Dumbledore's ability to detect lies. Harry's belief that "Dumbledore can see right through you and can find out what's going on" and in PS climax when Voldemort declares "He lies... He lies..." is a foreshadowing of Legilimency. But I very much doubt that Dumbledore taught Hagrid Occlumency.

 

Hagrid teaching Harry Occlumency is a one-shot idea that just begs to be done, Montclair (or anyone else).

 

Might already have been refuted, I'm too lazy to read through every answer before I respond.

Nowhere does it say that Ron learned Parseltongue. He only mimicked the sounds he recalled Harry using during Chamber, and even then, I recall it being mentioned that it took him awhile to nail as well.

I can mimic the sounds of Swahili or Norwegian all I like. I might even be accurate enough to be understood by someone proficient in the language. That still doesn't mean I know what the fuck I'm saying though, or how to say anything else in that tongue.

 

I'm sorry, but that doesn't hold. Ron could mimic the sound all he liked, even with 100% accuracy, but the fact is that snakes don't have ears, so they couldn't hear it. It's one thing for someone who is actually a parselmouth, where it can be waived by saying it's his superpower that allows the snake to understand him, but it's a totally different thing for someone without it to mimic some sound and have it work the same.