Given my theory generally takes magical power/strength to be synonyms for skill (or rather, magical strength is the product of skill), there's your answer from my perspective.

Of course, Moody might have been significantly bullshitting. Certainly it seems like the Killing Curse is able to be cast by everyone and their mums. With this in mind his statement seems to be talking not about power differences between wizards, but rather something to do with the youth of the wizards in the class.

Over time it does seem to be the case that people do just get better at casting spells, both in terms of the strength of the spells they cast, and in terms of what spells are within their ability. One theory would call this magical maturity; I would attribute it to mental maturity.

 

It's been said over and over, but don't go too far in whatever analogy between magic and energy you may use.

That said, more skill => stronger spells => more "powerful" effect (light, explosion, whatever) obviously works. I think quantifying magic is the inherent problem (ergo "amount" doesn't work).

 

I personally think he meant that none of the students had the required murderous intent, since emotions generally seems to charge magic up, and are required for the other Unforgivables to work.

So he's letting them know that their Killing Curses will be extremely weak, but not the cause for that oddity.

 

I'm sure this has been addressed somewhere before (I can't be bothered to search), but what about the scene at the end of HBP where Harry and Dumbledore are in the boat and Dumbledore says something on the order of, "Don't worry Harry, your power won't register when compared to mine", implying there's some sort of spell that measures magical energy, which of course means that magic is a quantifiable resource.

Again, I think this was addressed before, but if there are any plot comments implying quantifiable magic (Moody's comment, Barty Crouch being described as 'magically powerful'), this is perhaps the most explicit one.

Personally, I have no problem with magic being a quantifiable resource; I just despise 'magical core' theory, 'magical maturation', and similar fanon ideas that have been done to death and which make me shake my head whenever I see it pop up in a story. If done in an original way and explained in a reasonable and logical manner, I don't see why not.

 

I always thought Harry didn't register because he had the Trace and was under-age, but that may be Fanon.

 

I've always thought of magical capability as a dual aspect, i.e, there is the talent and skill factor, that a person develops or learns. Some are more naturally talented than others, more diligent in their studies, etc.

There is also the power factor. Some are just born more magically powerful than others. They can do more powerful spells and can do them more easily. Though the less powerful ones can also do it but perhaps with a bit more effort.

Though I think that the skill factor is the most important and can overshadow power.

However, I've never believed that magic can run out, or in the concept of fatigue to occur from overuse of magic.

I don't believe in magic being quantified. I have seen a few fanfics which use that as a basis, most are pretty bad. IP82's Potter's Resistance is the only one that stands out.

 

I've kind of imagined that magic 'power' is a matter of how much you can 'grab' and how efficiently you can use it. Like a high output light versus a really old bulb or something... That little statement by Dumbledore kind of irks me for that reason--unless a wizard is actively using magic, I don't see any reason why they would 'show up' as being any more powerful than another.

As for quantifying magic and fatigue and all that--well, it has to have some measurable effect on the wizard, because... well, it has to have some metabolic consequences, or witches and wizards would all be morbidly obese, right? They don't have real sports or exercise, heck--they hardly even have to walk to get anywhere. So maybe the real drain comes from how well a wizard or witch can manage the magic they draw.

 

How did you come to that conclusion? If anything, the boat would recognize that as some sort of magic, as opposed to Dumbledore not using magic; ergo, Harry would register and Dumbledore wouldn't . . . which is specifically opposite of what Dumbledore said.

Of course, I never trust what any characters say about the universe they are in, especially when it comes to the mechanics of that that universe. 99.99% of the time, they're either talking out their ass or repeating what someone else told them that was repeating what someone else told them that was repeating what someone else told them that was repeating what someone else told them that was talking out their ass. I.e., one should infer the mechanics of a story's universe from what actually happens in a story, not what someone SAYS will/can/cannot happen.

Basically, I assume that the author is not always using a character as expositor of the mechanics of their universe - the character isn't omniscient - and in fact may be using the character to mislead the reader for one reason or another.

 

I'll admit that Dumbledore came across a little too much like some didactic voice of Rowling, but at the same time, it could also be her trying to mislead, or if not, Dumbledore merely speculating.

I never assume that characters don't believe what they're explaining, mere that what they believe may be mere speculation. Too often, I've read stories where X was posited most likely to show how WTFPWN!AWESOME their character is when he or she achieves just the opposite. In this case, I think Dumbledore was merely being used to help maintain the dramatic tension of the narrative. It's a boat. That's pretty mundane. Rowling was probably just trying to make the mundane boat seem like it was more than it was, than actually explaining anything about the way things actually were.

Also, it sounded like Dumbledore was explaining something that Voldemort DIDN'T think of, not something he DID. I.e., I don't think Voldemort put the magical equivalent to the logic function, "IF trace THEN dont.sink.boat" on his boat charm.

The whole thing does raise the question of how one would put such a charm. In order to do so, it seems as if you'd have to assign a numerical value that couldn't be surpassed - whether you believe that value to measure skill or power or, god-forbid, a magical core. It's easy to assume that you could have it sink upon registering two distinctly different whateverthefuckitis's but if that were the case, then amount of power/skill/core-size would be irrelevant, and Harry with Dumbledore would have sunk the boat.

Again, it seems to be either pure speculation on the part of Dumbledore, or Rowling intentionally misleading the reader.

 

maybe this is about magic but not magical power.
Let's say every magical person gives away magic and a magical person gets older his/her magic matures and gives away more magic so Harry 16 DD 156 (or something) Harry give 16 Magic away DD gives 156 so boat blinded by DD's 156 doesn't see Harry's 16

 

Well, there you have it. According to Dumbledore, who is a source to be trusted (a lot more so than Hermione), magic is quantifiable and measurable. Also according to Dumbledore, Voldemort is concerned with the amount of magical power crossing the lake, implying that Voldemort thinks that high amounts of magical power is correlated with being a strong/powerful wizard. DD's statement also somewhat implies that magic is contained within the body, and is not some external or extra-dimensional force wizards draw from.

As to what this means for fanon, it's all up to the author and what is relevant to your plot. You can use license to ignore or take into consideration whatever you want. However, if you do trust Dumbledore's statement, please come up with something besides a magical core or magical maturation to explain magical power levels. Originality is highly important. And even though most things have been done before, some to redundancy, cliches such as magical cores are off-putting to the extreme.

 

It's the midichlorians. Without the midichlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of magic. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of magic. They are a microscopic lifeform that reside within all living cells and communicate with magic.

 

That way lies madness.

"I don't like sand," said Harry, staring out across the ramshackle, comfortable grounds of the Burrow. Ginny was at his side, the wind teasing her long, fiery, red, flaming, ginger, red hair.

"It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere. Not like here. Here everything is soft...and smooth." He extended a finger down Ginny's pale arm.

And then his world exploded in agony - the Cruciatus curse delivered by a mind and magical core well suited to the task. The pain stopped abruptly, leaving Harry gasping and struggling to reassemble the threads of his consciousness. Ginny was standing over him, partially blocking the sun. Her lower lip was trembling, as was her wand, still pointed at his chest.

"If you wanted to dump me, a simple 'fuck you' would have sufficed!" She ran away from him, leaving him to his thoughts on the soft and smooth Burrow-dirt.

sorry, bored >_<

 

Hurrr durr. He said power so it means POWER LEVELS.

You can say five scholars on the level of (Any genius name here) have the power to do anything. Power~Ability in the way he said it. In the way Dumbledore said it, it seems like you could replace that with, ""Voldemort will not have cared about the weight, but about the amount of intellectual power that crossed his lake...."

 

Okay. Logical analysis:

I'm of the school of thought that magic is a quantifiable resource that wizards internally generate. This is due to one important thing - places of magic apparently 'feel' like magic, a la Hogwarts according to Harry. This must mean that magic can localize, and to localize they must follow people.

Here we come to two distinct conclusions - that people internally generate their magic, and therefore wherever they go has 'more' magic in that area. OR, magic is a universal force that wizards can simply access. They 'output it' when they cast spells (such as in a school) - this gives a place the 'magical' feeling that Harry experiences in Hogwarts.

Either it 'leaks out' of the Wizard due to his presence alone, or it is cast out during spells. Either way, somehow magic gathers in places. But since Dumbledore didn't cast anything in HBP Cave scene and still mentioned the enchanments 'noticing' his power levels, we know that magic is something tied to your presence, not what you do.

We can now conclude that

1.) Magic is not all encompassing (because it localizes)
2.) It is generated by the wizard simply being (because things can measure it without you doing anything - you're not 'tapping into' magic because otherwise you couldn't be 'measured' while not doing anything, as AD clearly was.)

We come to an impasse here with one key detail in the book - Kwik-Spell (the magic learning 'course' for squibs). Assuming it isn't a scam, it implies two possible things:

1.) Magic Levels are variable, since Squibs can still learn magic, albeit at a limited rate. This is supported if Squibs can use magical items, which isn't clear in the books. If they can, then it implies they have some magic, but are under the threshold to do Hogwarts level magic.

2.) Magical ability has a threshold - if Kwikspell works, it can't possibly allow Squibs to become normal wizards. This would be a cure, and Kwikspell would obviously be more popular than it already is. Therefore, if you're under the threshold, you're shit out of luck. This is a hard limit and not due to anything else. You may think of this theory: that perhaps because the less magic you have, the more work you must do to increase it, leading to a situation where you'd be practicing your magic for far too long to get appreciable gains in abilities. But this can't be right, because it would allow Dumbledores and Voldemort to run up their abilities to infinity fairly quickly.

This brings us to another two possibilities - Either you can NEVER overcome magical limitations and increase your overall magical abilities through sheer skill (magical potency is variable among wizards, as seen by AD and Harry) or you can, but you have to be over the threshold.

This is only likely if Kwikspell is not a scam. If it is a scam, that forces us to conclude that you either have magic or you don't. It's an either or situation, and skill changes everything. It doensn't make sense for there not to be people with so little magic as to be called squibs, but not be able to 'level up' to a real wizard with enough practice. So if it is a scam, it's either or.

But back to our 'not a scam' scenario. So you can improve your magical abilities if you're over the threshold. It's not possible you can't, due to Kwikspell. Plus, wizards are able to improve themselves, as evidenced by Neville (as long as you're over the threshold). Clearly, everyone grows in their power eventually, as fake Moody's suggestion that nobody in the room had power enough to kill showed. Whether it's through natural maturity or practice isn't clear, but evidence suggestions either a mixture of both or the purely latter.

We've resolved almost every question except this - are wizards born with varying powers (over the threshold), or the same amount? If we take Neville's early incompetence to be stupidity, we can know nothing. If we assume it's his low power levels, then we can assume wizards are born with varying powers.

One of the reasons this makes a lot of sense is the fact that young wizards with power are shown to have lots of magical accidents before Hogwarts. Weaker wizards, like Neville, don't seem to do this as much. One particular comment to note was Neville's assertion that everyone was afraid he was a squib because he didn't show any magical signs until someone dropped him on his head.

Therefore, if Kwikspell is a scam: Wizards have magic or don't (squibs have zero, and anyone with magical ability goes to Hogwarts). Everyone has the same magical ability, because no one seems to suffer due to a lack of sheer magical 'power'. Neville overcomes his handicaps eventually. Skill means everything.

If it isn't - people are born with varying amounts of magical power, but they can improve it with skill.

I believe in the latter, simply because it explains away powerful wizards like Voldemort and Dumbledore as being smart enough to increase their already likely powerful magic. To not believe in this would mean that Voldemort and Dumbledore, both powerful wizards, both incredibly smart, simply happened to be born as they were near each other and in the same era. Not likely, as we don't see any 'powerful' wizards who are stupid (because if skill didn't affect to innate magical power, we'd see these people walking around).

Both AD and LV are considered intelligent, so this must contribute something to their abilities.

 

That's one way to read it. I always read it in the same way you'd read "Disneyworld is a magical place" or "this beautiful vista is simply magical" or "music, a magic greater than any we teach here". He's not referring to some kind of energy or bodily sensation, but rather a feeling of awe, wonder, and unreality that he feels there. Or at least that's my reading.

JKR has said it's a scam and that Squibs can't learn spells.


With regards to Dumbledore's comments in the Cave, I have discussed them before. Basically, what Smile said. The word "power" is used many times in the books, often interchangeably with "skill". Under a power = skill theory they're simply synonyms. So Dumbledore is referring to skill.

Of course, you may doubt that Voldemort maybe able to make a spell that detects power if power is simply skill. But this is just a lack of imagination, and perhaps born of thinking too "muggle".

There's a certain school of thought in HP fanon that treats spells like computer programs/functions: you only "get out" what you "put in". Under this view, creating/casting a spell is like defining a function, and so for a power detection skill you'd have to take into account every possible factor that contributes to skill. This does seem unlikely (though not impossible). However, if you get rid of this idea and say that you can make a spell that detects power/skill magically, without the wizard having to do the hard work of consciously spelling out his intent, it works much better.

And magic does seem to work a lot like this. Unconscious desire changes the spell, dependent on the wizard's intent (e.g. can make the shield charm a physical block instead of magical).

That said, I agree with Oz about it being about underage. Taking the passage as a whole, it appears that Dumbledore is saying that the boat will not detect Harry (rather than detect him and ignore him, as Rin suggests) because he is underage. In response to this:

Consider for a moment what you're saying: the boat isn't supposed to allow a "large amount of magical power" to cross the lake. And then it lets Dumbledore cross. If you have a quantifiable idea of magic, Dumbledore certainly has a hell of a lot of it: more than several normal wizards combined.

I find it much more likely that when Dumbledore is talking about the amount of power crossing the lake he is meaning the number of wizards (going with the Harry is underaged and so won't register idea). Each wizard would count as "1" on the "amount of magical power" count, and if it went higher than a certain number (I think, in this case, given his comments to Harry, 1 is the maximum) you couldn't cross.

 

Pretty much what I concluded if Kwikspell was a scam.

But I don't agree that the enchantment measures skill. Skill resides in the mind, and that's not something that's easily penetrated, especially Dumbledore's. Skill likely increases your ability to generate magic.

But there is an alternative explanation - the magical muscle theory. The more you use it, the more powerful you get. Skill simply happens to increase with power simply because the more you practice your magic the more skilled you get. That is, skill doesn't cause increased magical power, but it does increase with it due to the circumstances.

Now that I think of it, this is the likeliest explanation.

 

Just a small caveat, but what about this line, "His Patronus was too feeble to drive the Dementor away. All it did was hover, like a semi-transparent cloud, draining Harry of energy as he fought to keep it there."

Wouldn't that imply some kind of internal magic source or, at the very least, that it required energy(mental or otherwise) to access magical power?

Edit: I realize this is pretty much the first post of the thread, but no one seems to be addressing it lately...