I totally agree!

 

Maybe Voldemort didn't fear Grindelwald because Grindelwald was locked up in a tower for years with no wand and wasted away, while Voldemort was in full control of the situation.....

I would have loved to see Voldemort trying to see through Grindelwald mind to locate the Elder Wand, allowing viewers to catch a glimpse of his legendary duel with Dumbledore.

I thought one of the best moments of the entire series was the DD VS V scene at the end of OOTP....I wonder how Grindelwald faired against Dumbledore compared to Voldemort?(How much longer was the duel, did he actually get DD on the backfoot unlike Voldemort who Dumbledore casually walked towards the entire time?)

 

Why? People do have to take accounts of land every now and then, and while some magical protections wouldn't show up on that because their enchantments just make them look different (Hogwarts is a derelict castle) or so ordinary as to be instantly forgettable (the Leaky Cauldron), not everything is covered by an illusion or a Notice-Me-Not. Grimmauld Place, at the very least, literally exists in compressed space, and I have a hard time imagining that Diagon Alley doesn't, seeing how that's really the only way you could hide an entire district in the heart of London.

 

The building St. Mungo's is located in is another such example, also where exactly is the ministry underground?

 

So you think the commercial wizarding center of Britain, a magical alley in the heart of the capital, is not covered up to the tits by Muggle reppelling charms?

(Hint: it is)

Also, Grimmauld Place is hidden by the Fidelius Charm. That's another kind of different.

With regards to magic not working against a satellite:

€dit: Okay, picture's not working. The jist: Fuck you, it's magic.

 

For the most part I'm with you. Was fielding the 'not everyone necessarily advocated hiding from muggles instead of some sort of domination, just like in contemporary canon' thing, because even though they're a group they war with each other on policy. Also fielded the idea that while the act of secrecy about one's magical ability around muggles is not in dispute, them being around muggles at all might well be.

Most of the employed adults we meet in canon are Aristocrats, work for the Ministry / Hogwarts, or had something to do with Quidditch. The major exceptions were shopowners and journalists, I think. Assuming that journalism and the idea of 'press' came into being around the same time as muggle journalism did (c. early C17th), that pre-Ministry some jobs may well have been with the Wizard's Council / Wizengamot (though perhaps fewer jobs overall, considering that those institutions probably didn't have quite the bureaucracy the Ministry has), that not everyone has noble blood and in a time of higher population percentages of 'pureblooded' wizards (which is implied by the references to pure-purebloods getting rarer) they might not have had the same aristocratic standing that they do in later society, and accepting that there would probably be a similar or slightly lesser amount of Quidditch teams and Shops as wizarding society grew... where did the rest of magical Britain make a living?

Obviously it's a hell of a lot of assumption, but the idea of all-magical communites and a self-sufficient, hidden world prior to the statute doesn't seem to fit with the 'Where were they all actually working' question, nor does it fit with the reasons that the statute came into being. Why legislate if the communities are naturally, permanently seperate and it's already developing into a well-kept secret? I don't treat the Statute as something that made official the total removal of their society from the muggle one, but rather as a 'do what you want, but don't show them magic'.

Just seems to imply an semi-integrated community, to some extent, and that there were certain wizards who would need to be regulated by a statute of secrecy to stop them performing magic on/for/near muggles. No doubt their society was 'a little removed from the rest of the population' and wizards do seem to be reclusive, but I don't think it was ever entirely segregated, nor do I think there wouldn't have been entire groups of wizards who wouldn't want it to be, for whatever reason.

So tl;dr: I agree, but think the lines are blurred a little more than that, and probably wouldn't define the purpose of the Statute of Secrecy in the same way.

In a magically expanded space the size of a phonebox, six feet below London. Why not?

 

There is one word that should adequately explain why there aren't many advocates against the Statute of Secrecy: Azkaban. It's not like the canon Ministry is against sending innocent people there with little evidence other than circumstance.

 

No, I totally believe Diagon Alley is covered to the tits with Muggle Repelling Charms. I just don't think Muggle Repelling Charms would do anything to stop someone crunching the numbers from a land census from realizing that there's a district-sized chunk out of London that is unaccounted for. It would stop them from physically going there and finding out what the hell was going on, but it wouldn't stop them from realizing it.

The only way this makes sense to me is if we assume that wizards have infiltrated the Muggle world to the extent that they can edit those sorts of records so people looking things over see nothing wrong. And I'm not entirely sure I can buy that, seeing how incredibly out-of-touch and isolated the wizards seem to be from the rest of the world. I suppose there could be some special group that takes care of that sort of thing, probably composed of Muggleborns and Squibs, but you would think we would have heard about them at some point if they existed.

St. Mungo's makes sense, as that's an illusion, and probably has some passive Notice-Me-Nots on it as well. The Ministry is kind of a problem, though. That's a huge underground space. You would think someone would notice that.

Though, that being said, you 'do' have to take an elevator down to it if you want to get there physically. Seeing how that's an obviously magical elevator, the Ministry could be way underground, so far that it's entirely beneath the city.

 

You're right, that totally worked against Voldemort.

 

Because every witch and wizard out there is Voldemort, right? We're not talking about the crème of the magical crop here, we're talking about people advocating different politics. Everyone has an opinion, not everyone has the power to make that opinion into an actual political movement.

 

To be honest, I do not understand the “satellite” argument. At first sight, it’s easy to see how useful it can be to show how muggles are superior to wizards who would never think about being spied on from the sky/space...

Oh wait! They had flight capacity for at least 2000 to 3000 years (if not more), flying carpet, at least, exists since the Babylonian era. They had the ability the travel through the sky centuries before the muggle, it would not be surprising if they created defence or concealment spells against that to protect themselves from others wizards or magical community.

So even if they used satellite imagery, muggles shouldn’t be able to realize that lands are missing, because it would be hidden from their pictures.

-

I was looking at the beginning of the first book yesterday. I thought I remembered Hagrid saying something like: “while others minister may wonder what Fudge is the minister of, the Queen know”. Instead, I find him telling Harry that the main responsibility of the Ministry of Magic is to keep magic hidden from the muggles so they do not bother wizards with their problems.

While there may be some groups who do not believe that the Statute of secrecy is a good idea, they do not have the ability to fight against the Ministry of Magic organisation. And even if some muggleborn/muggleborn parent’s talked about magic; who would believe them? (To quote Fudge or Scrimgeour in the first chapter of HBP)

 

Except the three contemporary examples we're given of the crème of the magical crop have all at some stage advocated different political agendas than the Ministry. Those would be Dumbledore, Grindelwald and Voldemort. Had Adriana not died, it may very well have been a Dumbledore+Grindelwald duo attempting to enact global (or ICW-wide) political revolution.

Anyway, not every witch or wizard has to be like those three, you're right, nor does every individual witch or wizard with alternate views need to be an animagus (Sirius' escape) or be sponsored by one of those three (the Lestranges, etc), but first I was talking about groups or 'factions' of people - Death Eaters, for example - and second it only takes one. You gave an example of how such a political movement could be subverted, and I gave an one of how it didn't apply. That example being the leader of a political movement, no less.

 

I think while most wizards are out of touch, there is probably a group of wizards well versed in muggle culture and such. One would think professional Obliviators would be among the few in that category.

My impression of Fudge meeting the muggle PM seems to be that wizards are well in control of what constitutes their business. Even muggle journalists have no clue whatsoever regarding the Death Eater attacks on muggles. And that says something.

As for hearing about these groups, the book is rather Harry centric. And he's rather clueless about much of the Wizarding World.

 

@Raine: I think you're overthinking something that's really quite simple:
Charm cast = muggles won't see it. Period. If some digital tech captures it, it will manipulate the tech/image in such a way that (a) the charm erases it from any record, or (b) a muggle's eyes slide over it.

It amazes me that people will continue to come up with example after example of regular tech, pit it against a society that has managed to stay so hidden that they barely understand muggle tech, and assume that magic can and will be so thoroughly surpassed.

 

You know, I looked over the old Wizard vs Muggle threads today, just for kicks, and I'm not seeing anything in this thread that hasn't been argued and counter-argued exhaustively already, indeed in more detail and for longer than anyone is likely to do so in this thread...

 

^This. I don't know how many times it needs to be said that magic is about intent. Not "Spell X only works on the level of technology *today*", but just fucking works regardless. Not "Spell Y in its arithmantic makeup only protects against ground-based Muggle Polaroid cameras" either. It's magic, you morons. Magic, Magic MAGIC. There are no photovoltaic vectors or some shit to overcome a Disillusionment Charm or "General, we've discovered a wavelength of light the techno-wizards don't know of, so our heat-seeking Tomahawk missiles can zero in on Diagon Alley". No no no.

Jesus, it isn't hard. Diagon Alley isn't seen from the sky because (a) of the charms on it, (b) it's actually in another universe or state of being, or (c) both of the above. A satellite either (a) doesn't pick up concealed places at all, (b) the charms work on whoever sees the resultant satellite images or (c) some combo of both.

As to the innovation of Muggles vs. none for wizards, well that's actually bullshit. Oh they use quills, you say? And that's backwards? Point me to the Muggle ink pen that auto-corrects for you, would you? They talk through the fireplace instead of on cell phones? Please direct me to the cell phone that allows me to pass objects through it to the other person, or better yet, doubles as a direct door to their place. Muggles still don't know how to teleport, at least to my knowledge, so why bother with wizard cars except for those too unskilled to safely teleport. Personal jetpack still out of reach there, Muggles? Wizards happen to have 150-mph personal airplane equivalents (which don't need fuel), so I think the jetliner might not be needed. Compasses, other tech like that? Pint-Me spell, and you're good to go. Water bill too high? Yeah, even the wizard trash cans just eat the trash, so no need for utilities AT ALL.

So STFU about wizards being backward. They're out of touch with modern Muggle shit, but let's face it, Muggles are still WAY the fuck behind in almost all areas.

 

Raine, I think you're having a problem with the idea that magic can be applied to ideas or abstract concepts. It's understandable if you think magic is incapable of that, but HP canon does not lend credence to that point of view. For example, Voldemort cursed the Defense position at Hogwarts. There was nothing physical to influence there.

Similarly, Diagon Alley can be hidden by magic cast with the intent of hiding the area from Muggles. The effect: no matter which method is used, Diagon Alley won't be detected by Muggles, even if they look at satellite imagery or through IR goggles or whatever. You might want to object and ask how this is doable. In the HP universe, how something like that is achieved is simple -- magic. The details are both unknowable and irrelevant.

Edit: Semi-ninja'd, but I think my post is still relevant enough.

 

Out of thumbs-up, but this states it better and less exasperatedly than I could have right now.

And I've often thought that the DADA curse was the most impressive feat of magic in all of canon. Imagine cursing something so thoroughly that, no matter who takes the job over 30-or-so years, something will happen such that that person is removed from that position by the end of the school year. Before he went completely bonkers, Voldemort was a BOSS.

 

On top of that, the curse was for an extremely specific effect, which means he had to develop the curse with that exact purpose in mind. It's a lot different than the magic we normally see in canon. For example, Crabbe was able to successfully cast Fiendfyre and burn down the Room of Requirement. Impressive use of cursing, perhaps (never mind that Crabbe wasn't able to control the curse). But Voldemort was able to come up with a curse that had an extremely abstract and wide-scoping purpose, and it was something that even Dumbledore wasn't able to counteract.

This is actually the type of magic that would be cool to see done well in fanfiction. Or at least, more creative stuff than typical dueling spells. There's nothing very interesting about a Voldemort who casts random curses that are either painful or just kill people.

tl;dr: I agree with Portus.

 

Normally it's lame as fuck to point out someone's typos, but I couldn't let this one slide.

I now hope to see the Pint-Me spell in some fanfic. It'll guide a thirsty wizard to the nearest pub, of course. :awesome