The speed (which I agree with) is countered by the fact that you have to vocalize the Killing curse, and that it's visible. That's like someone with a gun saying "PullingtriggerNow!" before shooting. More than enough information with which to mount a defense.

That said, I still think the majority of wizards freeze up when -literally- faced with death.

 

Eh, I don't think you can take for granted that it has to be vocalised. That's one of the things that's being discussed ITT. It seems to me that there are several instances of non-verbal Killing Curses in the books and that you need a fair amount of explaining them away to get them to fit the idea that it has to be vocalised.

 

Well, I don't think Herbology is that much more useful than, say, CoMC. And other subjects might have their own usefulness, depending on what exactly Aurors are expected to do. Just look at the way Kingsley had to flawlesly infiltrade the PM's Office as secretary/security. That would've been impossible for a Pureblood without at least a OWL and some specialised training in Muggle Studies.

And how necessary is something like Charms, really? Wouldn't an OWL suffice most of the times? It's quite possible everything an Auror needs to know about most NEWT subjects can be covered in a few extra-curricular Auror courses. It's not like Aurors go around turning desks into pigs all day.

Mostly, this. In a way, we actually know more about the requirements for becoming a Healer (E NEWT in Herb. Pot. Trans. Char. and DADA) or a job in Muggle Relations (OWL in Mgl Stud.) than for Aurors (five E NEWTS).

 

Very? Seems to me the vast majority of spells used by wizards are Charms. Also, Transfiguration is used a lot by Aurors, mainly for stealth (human Transfiguration). They also have to Untransfigure things. And that's not mentioning how useful it is in combat.

 

Sure, in daily life, but for Aurors specifically? I'd say most Charms useful in combat and such will be covered in DADA. And it's not like Aurors stop learning the moment they leave Hogwarts. There's a 3 year training course for a reason. It seems that's where you'll learn to utilize Concealment Charms and possibly Facial Transfiguration for example.

Transfiguration in combat could be very useful in combat. We rarely see it being used though (only Dumbledore, Voldemort and McGonagall I think?). That doesn't mean a NEWT in Transfiguration is absolutely necesarry for being an Auror.

I'm not saying the five 'main' NEWTS don't all seem useful for being an Auror. I'm just saying there isn't any reason to assume they're all absolutely necessary to become one. Not untill Rowling says so anyway. In which case we atleast would know a little more about what it means to be an Auror, besided catching Dark Wizards.

 

How successful do you think someone would be at mastering advanced Human Transfiguration - by all appearances the most advanced form of Transfiguration - without having done NEWT Transfiguration? It's like asking someone to do an engineering degree without having done high school mathematics. Same for the Charms used by Aurors for combat. How are they supposed to master this advanced magic if they haven't mastered the less advanced stuff?

 

Either that or in the years in between the 4th book and the 6th, Harry has learned enough theory and gotten better at casting spells that it allows him to pick up certain types of magic at a faster rate. Harry's learning curve is quite erratic in canon. He seems to be unable to follow the basic potions instructions perfectly, but when he gets that book and thinks it belongs to his father all of a sudden he can follow those modified instructions at such a level that he creates a potion superior to perfectly followed instructions from the book.

There are also the incidents where he learns a spell from seeing it preformed in Tom's diary, casts a fully corporeal patronus charm as a third year, and knows enough about DADA that he can teach 7th years as a 5th year. He also got the Cruciatus right on his second try, and he cast the Imperius on his first attempt at the spell. Granted, he is supposed to be extremely gifted at DADA.

There is this thing called magic. It allows wizards to become invisible, rip information from your mind, erase your memory, take control of you, flawlessly assume your body, and appear out of thin air. Oh, I almost forgot about the notice me not charm.

As far as the killing curse is concerned, it can be blocked, but this doesn't make it any less effective. If it was as simple as conjuring an object to block it then I'm sure Dumbledore would have done so in OotP. He can conjure with a casual wave of his wand which would have allowed him to block both the snake and the curse with conjurations.

After all, he has shown multiple instances of conjuring multiple items at once in canon. There is a reason he animated those stone statues to do the blocking. Just like there was a reason that he wasn't able to step out of the way of the curse while simultaneously taking care of the snake.

 

I'm trying to remember and drawing a blank: was there ever an incident in canon where a Killing Curse was actually blocked by a conjured object? I can remember the spell hitting "normal" objects, and I can remember it hitting objects that have been enchanted (the statues in the Ministry), but...

 

Probably extremely difficult (except for, apparently, Hermione). It might even be difficult for Aurors that did get a NEWT in Transfiguration. That's why not all Aurors will get high scores in that test. But there's a lot of ways to conceal yourself and you don't need to be able to do all of them. There's a lot you can teach someone in three years. Just look at Harry's Hermione's progress through canon.

The same thing goes for Charms. Sure, it will probably be very difficult to perform high advanced Charms without a NEWT. But how often will that be necessary? And are all the usefull Charms that hard? Fifth years can perform the Shield and Patronus Charms. And which Charms will be absolutely necessary? Maybe the greatest and most versatile Aurors excell in all those different and usefull studies. But that doesn't mean they're all necessary to become an Auror.

The thing is, we simply don't know all that much about what Aurors do.The fact that McGonagall calls Charms just 'always usefull', while Potions are an 'essential study' (but apparantly not essential enough to be a strict requirement) shows there's more to being an Auror than fighting. Maybe they're some kind of criminal investigators as well.

Yeah. Kingsley did none of those things. He actually was the PM's secretary. And did a very good job of it.

 

I think the Aurors are more selective than you imply and require a much higher skill level. I mean, there were several years where not a single Hogwarts graduate was considered good enough to enter the training.

 

Well, with their less than stellar education in DADA which is probably the most important subject for Aurors and when we have qualified wizards who can´t cast the Shield Charm...

 

No, no, I know it's a very difficult career. I just don't think the NEWT subjects are that necessarily important when judging someone's ability as a future Auror. The fact that McGonagall doesn't list any strict requirements and the existence of character and aptitude test seems to indicate to me, that the 5 NEWT E's are high basic requirements to cut out everyone that wouldn't be good enough anyway. It's the following tests that will truly indicate whether or not an applicant is suited to be an Auror, which might be mostly based on character and abilities that can't be judged from NEWT scores. Like how your 'enthusiasm, patience and good sense of fun!' are more important than your grades for Muggle Relations. Sort of.

So while it might very well be true (and it quite possibly is), that an applicant with E NEWTS for Herbology, Potions, Defense, Charms and Transfiguration usually has the highest chance of being accepted, we simply don't know enough to say that with any kind of certainty. It's theoretically possible an applicant with E NEWTS in Muggle Studies, Arithmancy, Ancient Runes, Care of Magical Creatures and Divination is equally suitable.

 

Per the HP Lexicon (and they're quoting Book 5, chapter 29), an Auror has to have no less than 5 NEWTs of EE or better, including DADA. They 'highly recommend' the NEWTs for Potions, Transfiguration and Charms for a candidate, which is why Harry and Ron were so dashed to be blocked from NEWT Potions by Snape's requirement for an Outstanding Potions OWL for his class. That was nerfed by Slughorn taking the position, which is the driving moment of the whole freakin' sixth book.

Aurors were afforded wide-sweeping powers under Barty Crouch Sr., and were responsible not just for taking down Dark Wizards, but invading giants as well. They're like FBI field agents crossed with Special Forces. If they need a dumb wand to attack things, they bring in a Hit-Wizard, and if they need research done that's beyond them, it's passed to the Dept of Mysteries (probably along with a bribe to get the work prioritized).

 

As to the use of and defence of AK in dueling, I think I need to be a bit more specific. The situation crops up in alot of stories that have Harry (for whatever reason) becoming a somewhat credible dueler. Yes Cannon Harry and most the rest of the cast would find it impossible to viably counter an AK in a fight. But most of my favourite stories have Harry actually being able to handle himself. And then crops up the physical object situation.

I have to disagree that Dumbledore levels are required to accurately interpose objects. If Miss Weasley can efortless banish an object to the bin. Or lupin with waddiwasi or even Draco with Serpensortia then to me the issue is mental freezing. Practice should rid you of that. If I were to list cannon charcter's that I feel should (talentwise) be able to defend the spell it would prob be:-Dumbledore, Voldemort, Snape, Bellatrix, Mad eye, Crouch Jnr, (The potters*, Prewetts*), Sirius, Tonks, Kingsley (all aurors).

Now if I think who could deal with controlled fiendfyre:- Dumbledore, Voldemort.

The minute that Harry moves into auror levels, with rapid fire spells (chaining, e.t.c) AK becomes a joke. If you are going to practice wand movements till they become seemless why wouldn't you practice using objects.

@ Taure. Speed is a good answer to the problem. But part of me is a little hesitant to make spells to fast. TO me there are three levels of deuls.
Amateur- Harry e.t.c, single spell then run,
Professional - Order. standing ground, fast, with spell chaining and a variety of tactics
Master- Dumbledore , Voldemort. The move from good magics to great magics. Drop the speed coz it wouldn't work and fight with your mind.

If spells are too fast, there would be no point in moving to master deuling because spell quantity should be enough to deal with anyone.

p.s. Writing that last point kind of pinpointed my issue with AK to myself. At the moment I feel the spell is Good magic that can be both used and dealt with in the professional skill level. I would like it to bumped to master.

 

You'd better have a quote that proves he didn't use magic to get the job done. It would be very easy for a wizard to bewitch muggles into thinking they did a good job or just outright using magic to do the job for them. There is a reason for those anti-cheating spells used on quills during OWLs. You wouldn't actually have to know anything about muggles to pull off that job when magic could either do the work for you or make everyone think you are doing a brilliant job.

 

Do you think you could block (or counter) AK when desperate by placing your wand in path of the spell ?

Wand is a magical object, so it could react somehow to AK and wand is not subconsciously part of your body like clothing which could be a possible reason for dying even when hit on clothes.

 

While holding it? No. By flinging it at the incoming spell? Sure, if you can also shoot down incoming bullets with a throwing dagger...

I won't say it's impossible, as ffnet is replete with Supah!Harrys that will do it just to prove me wrong, and they didn't need that wand anyway.

 

It's actually implied he did use magic for the job. That's how he got through 'twice the work as the rest of them'. He'd need to know quite a bit about the work he was supposed to do, do be able to pull that off though. But there's no reason to assume he did any of the things you mentioned. The fact, that he uses magic to get the work done, means he doesn't need to bewitch anyone into thinking he's great.

This isn't just about getting the work done, however. This is about working amongst Muggles in a high security environment, with at least one knowing about wizards, and not raising a hint of suspicion. He'd need to have his act down into the fine details, which would be almost impossible for most wizards without proper training. You can't honestly expect him to get his job done and keep an eye on the PM, if he had to spent all his time Obliviating and Confunding everyone for every slip-up.

 

This is not only correct, but born out through that thing we call canon.

Maybe it isn't explicitly stated, but it's certainly heavily implied that the subjects McG lists are *the* NEWTs Harry would need to become an Auror.

Think about what an Auror does; they're essentially the police of the wizarding world, if I'm understanding canon's clues correctly. Herbology might not seem useful, but knowing what plants are and are not magical, or should or should not be touched, could be very useful in an investigation. Potions seems important to me for the ability to recognize and/or counteract poisons or other nasty draughts, if nothing else.

Transfiguration, Charms and DADA should be pretty damn self-explanatory, to be blunt. Care of Magical Creatures as a substitute? No, I don't think so. If an Auror (or team of them) comes across a bunch of [insert magical creature here], they're going to call the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures, wait for *that* person to arrive, and then go about their actual duties.

I have to agree with this.

^THIS. In fact, I don't recall any instance of someone consciously Summoning or Conjuring something to block the Killing Curse, with Dumbledore's animating of the fountain statues to act of their own volition being the exception. I like to think that Dumbledore magicked them alive and gave them a prime directive of "Protect Harry Potter."

Just think about how fast your reaction time would have to be to not only process that a dangerous person is casting a spell of certain, instantaneous death at you, decide on an object to Conjure, and actually complete that Conjuration *before* that ray of certain death gets to you. It's not as if the curse is going in ultra-Matrix-slow-motion either.

I actually could see Muggle Studies being *very* useful, if for nothing besides dealing with those Muggles prior to the arrival of an Obliviator.

Don't be stupid, and stop being obtuse.

This. The way Harry's Sectumsempra on Draco was shown in the HBP movie was jarring and, for me, that's the way a scary Dark curse ought to be. There was a very brief flash of light just as Harry finished the incantation, and Malfoy was off his feet and bleeding almost instantly. There was no chance of Malfoy avoiding it, partly due to the close quarters but mostly due to the speed of it happening.

This is the reason that I dislike lengthy wizard duels or fights, because unless you're lucky and keep moving, there's not much chance of jumping out of the way of an incoming spell. It's just too fast.

Surely you jest.

First of all, I don't remember him learning a spell from Tom's Diary; what spell was it?

Secondly, Harry *does* learn the very difficult Patronus Charm, but just as with the Summoning Charm in GoF, he's got loads of motivation in Dementors and a dragon, respectively. It's amazing what the prospects of death, dismemberment and, yes, humiliation will do for a person.

And being "gifted" at DADA =/= easy proficiency with the Unforgiveables.

And not a single one of these abilities would help a wizard blend in as the Muggle PM's personal secretary.

 

I think his point is that Kingsley didn't have to actually blend in "the hard way". He could just magic everyone into believing that he had blended in and done a good job. From the perspective of the Muggles there wouldn't be any difference.

(Except, perhaps, a mysterious drop in productivity that had nothing at all to do with that lovely new chap, Kingsley, who does ever such a good job, don't you think?"