Honestly, there isn't going to be a damned guide about going 5v2 against Tanky DPS. It's not exactly something that comes about very often. So you go with what you know best/are most familiar with and then adapt as best you can.

You weren't being very helpful about it. Just insistent at first, and then abusive afterwords. Not really giving recommendations to go with besides what you objected to, just objecting.


I'm not saying you're wrong, per say. In fact you're probably right, at least to some degree. Just that the way you approached it was.. less than optimal. And yelling at people doesn't engender co-operation from anyone but sycophants and betas.

DLP isn't exactly known for that sort of person.

 

I've played Irelia a fair bit (200+ games) and overall, I'd agree with the first guide that Trinity is a midgame goal, not something to rush. Irelia needs to stay in lane and farm, as she's item dependant for her tankiness. If you rush Trinity, you get a bit of extra health for survivabillity, and extra movespeed for running away. That's it. In teamfights, you are still as squishy as hell, and will probably have to hope that the tank doesn't notice you jumping on their squishies, because if they do, their CC is going to be the death of you. Get at least two basic survivability items (negatron cloak, chain vest, cloth armor, null-magic mantle) before finishing your Trinity. If you're owning face in lane, and your team doesn't need you for teamfights, go ahead and rush Trinity.

If I'm expecting to have to fight in teamfights earlier rather than later, I'll often buy Tier 2 boots (Mercs or Tabi), and another ~700gold resistance item, depending on their team, after buying the second component of Trinity Force. People often recommend buying upgraded boots as soon as you can, but with movespeed quints, there's no rush for me.

I've been up against a lot of AD champions solo top recently, so I've been heading for Wriggles more than Philosopher's Stone, and I have to say that if you think Wriggles is at all justified, it's worth buying instead of PS. I've won a 1v2 top lane with no deaths thanks to Wriggles. Also, its ward is very useful at Baron if you don't have a jungler, or if your jungler doesn't have Wriggles, for whatever reason.

 

I said it's a bad straight RUSH on Irelia when you're not doing any sort of damage to the enemy.

They stacked Armor and HP. TForce is NOT going to help Irelia get through it.

It's a bad RUSH item on most champions when most should be getting two of the components then getting better gear before finishing Tforce last.

That 1k of free stats and slightly stronger passives are not worth getting rushing on most champs over what will make them good at late-game. Very few champions can get away with straight Tforce rush, usually only those that have some built-in sustain and low enough CDs to abuse constant procs while auto-attacking.

Yes, I'm going to yell at him for rushing those items when you didn't need them. He's IRELIA. He should be focusing the hell out of last hitting instead of relying on gold/5 in a 2v1 situation in your favor.

He was NOT in a solo lane where going base means the gold and Exp is wasted while his tower dies. You can afford to focus on damage items early on so he can last-hit better and actually help in ganks instead of taking 10+ seconds to kill a guy that Maokai and Rammus have both pinned down for gods knows how long.

MMOBA guides are LARGELY crap because there is no vetting process in them at all nor do they provide enuogh information in various situations. Literally, that same shitty guide, was covering the very bare basics. Nothing about tactics that you should be doing, what combination of enemies will make your life miserable, what are great points to take advantage of, and other major information that a REAL guide would present.

This is what a real guide looks like: GUIDE

Multiple build paths depending on situation. Various tips and strategies for early laning situations you'll regularly encounter. Information backed up by testing so you can optimize a build.

That is a real guide. It's not a set list of rigid ideas and tactics. It is something that can account for a good chunk of situations so new players don't go in blind and screw up.

Which is why I told you to fuck the guide and listen to the people he was actually playing with.

I told you to sell the gold/5 and get damage items. I even gave him suggestions, such as Ionian boots, ghost blade, and Hextech Gunblade. He refused to listen after I explained twice that those items are useless when he should be getting gold from minions instead of dicking around and letting the items take care of it.

I only started raging after the 4th time Jon and Rymos escaped a 3v1 gank because he couldn't put out ANY damage at all for a kill, despite having a metric ton of chain CC.

I will NOT tolerate people who don't listen after being told multiple times by different people that his build choice is BAD for that game, especially when you joined specifically to learn from it.

 

Something worth considering is Wit's End. It's a very nice semi defensive item which is rather nice on Irelia (and plenty of other champions who usually solo top, such as GP, Lee Sin, Udyr, etc).

Very good item price-wise and if you combine it with a Malady, you get something better and cheaper than a Madred Bloodrazor (except that you use two slots in your inventory).

Personally, I rush a Wriggle's Lantern and Wit's End with pretty much all of those solo top champions because this gives you survivability, plenty of damage, farming power and a free ward.

 

Perhaps I missed some of that then, trying to get kills in on Jon (I think Jon was Shyvana?) and avoiding the hell out of Udyr.

I do remember hearing about one missed gank, but two or three of the others must have escaped me. At that point I would have done as was suggested.

What I remember the clearest is that I've really got to work on leading with my skillshot on Morg. Because I was absolutely terrible at hitting people who were actively trying to avoid it.

I still don't think shouting and insulting is appropriate.

 

For every gank I sent down bottom, I performed three at top. Guess how many were successful.

I give people three shots at cooperating with those who have more knowledge and skill than them. Zeph used up the three rather quickly and proceeded to keep shitting on us instead of listening and becoming an asset.

Here's how bad it was:

------------------------
I chain ganked Rymos' Udyr 3 times in the space of 90 seconds. He was at about his side's top wall bush every time. Each of those times, Maokai and Rammus(Me) would slam our CCs on him back to back, timing it well enough to keep him pinned for 6 seconds or more.

Each time, he'd get away because Irelia's damage barely knocked 25% of his HP due to his crappy gold/5 build and only having Sheen + boots 1.
------------------

As for your Morg, it's really more about learning how to lead skills and in which order use them. Your build was horribly farm dependent when you didn't have that much farm.

Also, you played a zero escape lvl 13 mage with vs a 250+ CS lvl 18 Udyr and you stayed in front. Yes, I was getting annoyed at that, but at a much lower degree than Zephymus'(SP?) static Irelia build.

 

Gunblade, Ghostblade, and Ionian boots (wtf?) would do nothing for him against tanky dps. Triforce gives him attackspeed for his true damage and sustain, HP to survive through burst, AD and AP to boost his damage as well as ultimate sustain, movespeed which is the greatest stat in the game, by far, and the triforce proc which IS amazing as well.

You can say what you want about Triforce not being the optimal build in that particular situation, but Hextech and youmuus would be worse, by far. I don't know what you think you know about how to build Irelia, but there are very few siutations where either of those items are good picks for her.

I'll say again, you need to check your attitude because you are talking down to a player who would normally be open to suggestions and willing to learn. You think you know quite a bit about how the game plays but I can tell you that you are wrong. MOBAfire guides are fine, the vetting process is in the upvotes and ratings. That guide is also fine, and covers a large amount of material and information. No one will cover a guide about how to win a 5v2, because you can shit on your screen and try to play through the grime and you should still win. The guide you linked to Poppy however is buttfucking retarded and awful. Pretty much every build it lists for different situations is godawful. His summoner spell choices are god awful. The entire guide is much worse than the one that WalkingDisaster linked. As a Poppy player, not taking ignite is absolutely idiotic 95% of the time. It's funny though, that you recommend this guide when it recommends a triforce rush when Poppy has 0 sustain, 0 farm, and a terrible laning phase that usually necessitates a philo at least.

Triforce is going to help Irelia get through Armor and HP better than any of the items you suggested. It's a great 'rush' as a first major item, because Irelia is extremely tanky without items because she has high armor/mr values and scaling, innate cc reduction, and 2 forms of heavy sustain. Grabbing a triforce gives her more damage than any other single item, and offers her mobility, utility, and durability.

You mean a champion who has two forms of innate sustain and eight activated abilities to trigger the triforce proc? Because that would be Irelia.

That's funny, because when you played with Zephyrical and I, you refused to alter your build when we both told you it wasn't a good setup, when the 2 other members of our team told you it wasn't a good setup, and when you had the lowest score and farm on our team (including me as the support). And neither of us yelled or insulted you for your build or your poor play, we only tried to explain why it was a bad build. And even then, we only did that after you made fun of the enemy team's build.

We have a lot of inexperienced players from DLP here, and I've noticed that whenever I give advice, people tend to listen. It's not because they respect me or my knowledge, but because I tell them why they should or shouldn't build an item kindly, instead of insulting them. Your play with TSN today didn't start out with you telling him anything kindly, it started with you raising your voice. It may not have been yelling or insulting flat out, but it wasn't in any way patient or kind. Instead of suggesting that he should save his spin to escape, you told him "STOP using your spin to go in if you arent going to attack" in a tone that suggested you were reprimanding a child.

You may not tolerate people who don't listen to your every word, but you won't have to worry about that if they stop playing with you in the first place to avoid being yelled at.

I for one am getting sick and tired of trying to get games together for half an hour to have them fall apart because no one is having a good time. Is it the imbalanced teams? No, most of the time it's just someone being an asshole.

 

mah, I don't mind getting yelled at. I would sometime spin just to scare mao away. and I dont think he landed much cyclone at all during the laning phase of that match.

if he did I didn't realised it.

And Jana is a better suport to a range carry. A melee carry need some form of healing if the other team use large cc chain to pin him down.


BTW, I did not mind them getting away. as long as I could farm minion I would have eventualy goten the amount of cash I could get killing em.

with tryhard there is no use rushing kill. he get stronger the longuer the game goes on.

 

I know I'm late to the party on Sion discussion, but just a quick chime in- Chauster has an 'ask me questions' thread over on CLG's forums, and was asked just that question about why AP sion is good.

His answer was basically that AP Sion, in straight laning, actually can be shit on rather easily by just about any other commonly found mid champ. However, no good Sion actually DOES that. What they do is use their shield to push the other mid to their tower, and then they need to roam and gank top and bottom. If they stay mid and try to just farm they end up susceptible to ganks themselves due to how hard sion pushes lanes with his shield (which he will be forced to use to defend himself if he tries to just autoattack his waves, lest he end up having his shield eaten through if used defensively and be even weaker).

Moreover, the other team's mid is now stuck in middle all the time because otherwise they lose their tower to just minions unless they can clear it just as quick. In which case they are STILL coming in later to whatever ganks Sion is initiating in bottom/top and thus are still at a disadvantage.

Mana doesn't matter because blue solves everything, but an AP sion can just run in, stun and shield nuke. This combined with whatever the other people in the lane you are ganking with can do is why Sion is seeing so much play.




I don't play Irelia, so no opinion there >.>. I do remember a bit of debate a while ago when Hotshot was playing her and gave a dissertation on why Trinity wasn't worth rushing (but still good end game), but tbh I can't remember anything about it other then price and I think something about being a lot weaker then if you had rushed something else, probably warmogs but i can't really remember.

Also I want to get in on these 5v5, but I never seem to be on dlp when they get announced >.<

 

Stormfury, I'd just like to point out that I said all of that -.-;
Other mid's can't shit on sion at all until they get their ultimates, and by then he is ready to gank.

 

Assuming decent levels of play, most mids can pop his shield rather easily IF he lets them (and by let them I mean not try to destroy waves), which he shouldn't be doing anyway.

I saw you said pretty much the same thing, but i had just seen the exact answer given to that question from a pro's perspective (hence perfect play analysis rather then 'well if you CAN hit his shield with morg/brand/cass it'll break, but he can just dodge, too' arguments being considered), so I figured I'd share : ).

But yeah, he gets pretty beasty pretty fast, and with enough ap his shield doesn't fall off and he can keep on doing exactly what he was early game all game.

 

I didn't even know this thread existed.

Anyways, for any of you who'd like to add me

Name: Zephcemi

 

Let's forget about that 5v2 game. It was annoying for both sides.

Never before have I been cc'd for so long.. :|

 

In my defense, I'm hearing impaired. When 3 or 4 people are talking at the same time, it's kind of hard to focus on one singular person trying to help me out.

I've been doing a bit of reading up on Irelia and I've modified her build a bit.

I've decided to go a little more bursty DPS than sustainability since I'm a more defensive player in nature anyways. I'm not very aggressive.

 

And here I am all proud of how I was raping with Miss Fortune like Jon suggested, and you lot are essentially Albert Einstein to my kid with a chemistry set. Overly complicated game is overly complicated

 

LoL is an RTS game.

Real Time Strategy.

Despite Riot's rather ridiculous 'fun' policy, they do take that part rather seriously. MOBA (Multi-User Battle Arena) Games are known for their steep and unforgiving learning curves. I've been playing for over a month and I'm just barely beginning to consider myself passable at one or two characters in normal unranked PvP.

Honestly, we all sucked at some point or another. I got my face raped on a predictable, constant basis for the first week and a half that I played. I spent hours and hours frustrated at dying and feeding constantly.


Today I spent four hours destroying people. Believe me when I say that you'll get past that stage of feeling like nothing but a noob, we all did. You can too.

 

MOBA.

Multiplayer Online Battle Arena.

 

If you'll read further, you'll notice I said that too.

The two are not mutually exclusive. And in this case they both apply. LoL calls itself an RTS when you sign up for a new account, asking if you're familiar with RTS games and have played them and/or other MOBA games before.

Truth: Concentrated, strained, and presented succinctly.

Indisputable.

 

Adding to Jon's stuff, you also need to learn combat rhythm.

There's a certain flow to LoL that you'll start finding at higher levels of play, where certain actions become optimal. Once you figure out those behaviors, the built-in rhythms, and when to execute each behavior relative to the match's rhythm, you'll have a solid grasp of the game.

Even if you're trying a champion for the first time, knowing combat rhythm will greatly increase your success, sometimes more than just knowing straight knowledge of that champ.


@Churchy: I honestly don't know what to say to you.

That game, I was Kennen. Against a Morgana and and Fiddles that both had Zhonya's. You're asking a Kennen, a melee range caster, to build full burst and WotA versus 2 casters that can either out-right tank the damage and CC or hit me back just as hard while being tankier.

I built Rylai's and Zhonya's in order to survive Morgana's and Fiddle's Zhonya'd ultis. If I had rushed Death Cap, I wouldn't even get to stun one of them after their Zhonya effect, because their ultis would destroy me while the Shielded Graves would laugh and shoot me dead in the face in three seconds.

Also, you wanted me to get spell vamp for sustain. As soon as you typed it in-game, I rushed a Hextech. I sold it later because my ultimate was NOT hitting 3 of those champs for any vamp at all in team fights. I was also engaging slightly later than the mages, but before our AD champs and using Zhonya's, so I wouldn't even heal during stasis because I hadn't been hit before triggering everything.

Even after Zhonya's, I would have been automatically CC'd and killed because Fiddles and Morg were aiming at me specifically in every one of those fights. That's 6s of chain CC, where I could maybe tag 2 shots of vamp off of them if I were lucky, an insignificant heal amount.

After the match, I even talked with you and Zeph about why you two wanted me to rush WotA. You argued lane sustain and that Kennen should be able to take out Morg any day. Are you kidding me here?

Kennen has one ranged skill. Morg can easily absorb that with shield and shrug it off. Morg also had Clarity and greater passive spell vamp from lvl 1, that even if I got Hextech early, I wouldn't be able to compete with because I'd be forced into Melee combat range in order to vamp off a full mob, unlike Morg. Did you also forget that Morg got Fiddles to gank me 3 times in mid? When Zeph as GP hadn't even ganked my lane once? Fiddles never succeded, but it STILL forces me back from Exp and gold range, putting me behind a Morg who has an easier and less risky farming time.

How am I supposed to even know what you two wanted from me when you were both communicating in Skype while leaving me high and dry, especially since I asked for you guys to Vent and got zero response pre-game? Your WotA comment happened at 20 minutes in and your burst comment was practically at the end of the game, where I already had boots + Zhonya's + Ryali's.

So tell me, how would spell vamp benefit me at all when it was Fiddles being a constant presence in mid lane, despite wards around the area covering it, keeping me from getting mobs?

How, in a fight vs a Death Cap + Zhonya Morg and Fiddles and Shielded Graves, would I EVER benefit from building full squishy with WotA instead of Tanky DPS to provide passive CC from Ulti and field control from mass slows as long as possible?

How am I supposed to work on a team where I had very little to no communication and you guys completely ignored team comp by picking three DPS AD champs + Taric and leaving me the sole mage, a mage that specializes in tanky DPS builds and practically requires it versus mass CC in order to get off his full rotation?

The hearing impaired thing should have been told to us before we started. How else are we supposed to preemptively know you won't be able to follow our strategies over Vent?

It's good that you're modifying builds. Going off a guide for anything besides first glances is terrible. Nothing is ever as cut and dry as most guides make it out to be.

You're mixing builds up a bit, here. Sustain is for defensive play while burst is offense, though that largely depends on where your lane is, enemy comp, and how pushed you are.

Burst is defensive if you're pushed to your tower because you can counter divers while sustain becomes offense because it allows you to push back and eat minion damage. The roles are reversed if you're at the enemy tower.

And not being aggressive is good IF you farmed well. One thing that annoyed me about your time as Irelia top was how you only had 70 CS by the end of a 50 minute game. A defensive nature would have also been good if you told us in vent too. You stayed silent pretty much 90% of the time, with no comment whenever we initiated a gank, gave critique, or anything else. Even Walking Disaster took the time to type out responses.