Well to be fair, Rowling WAS a Classics major, that means she would be familliar with Pagan and perhaps some Heathen (there is a difference) mythology. Considering that the Church adopted a good deal of both in it's formulative years this is not at all surprising.

However, there is quite a good deal of Christian symbology in the Harry Potter Series. How much of it is intentional, and how much is accidental is a matter open for debate.

What interests me however is that these people have seemingly abandoned their prior stance when they realized they would lose.

Jeebus would be ashamed.

 

I hate it when people use fantasy novels like hp to help their cause and compare and shit. I don't want my perfectly good view of the book dragged through the mud of real life and religeon it really takes away the fun of reading a FANTASY FICTION book. the definition of fiction is acording to the ff.net dictionary FICTION: A story told in order to decieve, a fabrication Opposed to fact or reality. I sincerely apoligize if I offended anyone here.

 

lol

I hate all these religous types that shove their noses into other peoples business and tell them what they should and should not do.

I actually got into a fight once because of it.

One of my moms friend's had taken my HPGoF book while I was in school

(I had left it in the kitchen table, and I guess he came in to visit my mom, saw the book and decided to "save" me.)

So I come home, eager to finish reading it, and it is gone. Then I find out that mike (moms friend) had been over, and I figured that he must have taken it because he has warned me over and over whenever we see each other.

So i go over to the church to see if he is there, and what do I find, a big bonfire out of books. I see mike, so I go and ask him if he took it, he apologizes and says that he did, but that I will be grateful when I am older. I got so pissed that I punched him right there and then.

I screamed at him some choice curse word, and that is when the other people came to restrain me ( I figure they where so surprised that someone would punch mike, since he a very nice guy, and we used to get along well)
I run away then.

Luckily he decided not to press charges, but my parents where furious at me.

I dont feel guilty though. He deserved it, I worked hard for the money to buy that book.

 

I am pretty sure you could have had him arrested for stealing and the destruction of private property. Although personally I would think punching him be far more satisfying.

 

I did not think about it at the time. I was just so mad at him that I wanted to hurt someone.

 

You are my hero. I would have punched someone if they stole my GoF too; OoTP I'd demand a reimbursement; HBP I'd thank him.

Aren't book burnings illegal?

 

I dont think book burnings are illegal. They where doing it, and most people who go to church try to follow the laws, unless their god tells them otherwise.

 

I'm a bibliophile, which means book-burning is anathema. I wouldn't even burn HBP. And if someone outright stole one of my favorite books, burned it, and told me I would thank them later . . . yeah. That's an' old one-two in the face. Plus charges for theft, destruction of private property, and probably an infraction on lighting a bonfire, if it's within city limits. That's pretty much a no-no everywhere.

Or, I would just get evil and steal his bible, burn it in front of him, and tell him "You'll thank me later on. This is just one step along the path to saving your independent reasoning abilities."

 

Since it's legal for christians to burn Harry Potter books would I be able to organise a mass bible burning. The bon fire laws aside can the christians press charges on me or something for burning the word of their god?

 

I hate that people try to use this to convert individuals to their way of thinking. For those that think this fiasco with HP will help convert people to Christianity...theyre foolin themselves. In actuallity, it forces people away from the religion. It shows a complete lack of respect for writers, and a complete disbelief that there could be some things in life....which have NOTHING to do with religion.

LoL
While this would be slightly ammusing, I dont think it would end up helping out arguments that we are not the devils children. Also, I do agree that I think bok burnings were made illegal in the United States. Not 100% sure, but fairly certain, or we would have heard about massive book burnings where millions of the crazies got together and burned Harry Potter while dancin around a bonfire skyclad!!!

 

You'd think these dumbasses would give up after TWO THOUSAND YEARS of trying to convert people and failing miserably.

 

Ahem.

6/19/2006 - The date of the post before yours.

8/3/2006 - The date of your post.

Are you fucking stupid? Is it so hard for you to udnerstand that thread bumping is getting irritating to all members on this site? Did you READ the sticky that says THREAD NECROPHILIA [READ!!!!] ?

Fucking hell. I thought you were an intelligent sort...this is just idiotic.

 

I'm sorry. I saw this thread down in the Similar Threads section and failed to look at the date. I simply made a mistake.

 

The similar threads section has a last posted date on the far right. That is not a good excuse.

 

OK as far as I could tell the e-mail was written as an argumentative essay targeted at Christian parents, trying to show them that they can allow their precious children to read the Harry Potter series of books without having to worry that they will be then drawn into some cult or other.

Yes the e-mail was a nauseating read for anyone who is not a devout Christian but as we were not the intended audience, it shouldn't really worry you.

The John Granger referred to in the seventh chapter also published this The Alchemist's Tale (which is a link I copied from another thread here, not sure which though).

Strangely enough if you go looking for symbolism in any literacy work you'll find some and as quite a few symbols (ie. a lily>purity/death, a rat>treachery etc) have a similar meaning in a range of different religions or philosophical teachings.

You want to rant about something church groups are trying to do how about the fact that they a lobbying to have the theory of creation tough alongside the theory of evolution in the science classroom as an alternative scientific theory on how the earth came to be.

You don't even want to get me started on the weak evidence they have supplied to support this insanity.

 

It does not come as a surprise. Anyone religious who truly believes in the Bible will detest the principle of Harry Potter (among other magic-associated books) as magic and stuff like that considered as a crime in religions.

You should all be glad though, had these times were medieval it would've been much tougher dealing with those people, as you would've been set aligh for being associated with 'magic'.

The solution is simply to ignore. These kind of people have chosen the path of their lives, guided by their religion which condemns any magic-associated stuff as you have chosen yours.

 

Ahh, yes I'm sure there were also novels written about Witchcraft in those days too. And I doubt a hundreth of the people on this site would be literate. It is hardly the same thing.

I think these people are idiots. The story is about good conquering over evil. They should be happy.

 

Any book associated with magic would've condemned you to death in medieval times where Christianity was most bold, where there was no forgiving and only religion. It requires some research - I do believe however that if there were novels written about Witchcraft in those days (even after the mass "Witches" killing) it was low in number. It was a matter of life or death, just as you can "interrupt" a meeting between criminals. Putting yourself deliberately in the line of fire. Not many would've taken this challenge.

These people aren't idiots. It is not about good conquering over evil, as if it was this matter then a high percentage of books along Harry Potter would've been protested against. It's about MAGIC. You see it as a mere fiction, but others as a sin. The Bible overruled magic association.
If you think these people are morons and want to show them their mistakes, then make some rational arguments about their religion, which is not an easy thing (you need a broad theological knowlege and a good head).
That is the only way, unless you have strong arguments against the falsity of monotheism religions, you cannot rationally say "You are stupid", "You are wrong". You may have, actually - no one is stopping you, although, all your claims would be empty without any real depth behind them, besides your logic which you think is probably more logical than this protesting people.
It's all about the Bible.

I hope you understood me.

 

This was also the time period where Christians forgot what it meant to be Christians. And not just in the modern theological sense. They forgot that at the essence of Christianity, forgiveness is a virtue. That's not modern, it comes from the Founder of Christianity.

Actually, the number was anywhere between 40,000 and 100,000 (depending on whose estimate you want to go by). In the Colonies the number was significantly lower, but that as more because the Colonies came into existence at the tail end of things. Even over a number of years either of the two previously stated numbers are nothing to sneeze at. Especially given Europe's Population at the time.

Well now that you mention it, Slaughterhouse V, The Entire Wrinkle in Time Series, and Song of Solomon have all been protested against by Religious Groups at one time or another. In fact, my old High School had a self imposed ban on teaching Song of Solomon. The excuses these groups use are "It's got a sex scene in it (Slaughterhouse V). It's got ambiguous morality (A Wrinkle in Time). It portray's black people in a negative light and has incestuous romance (Song of Solomon)."

In fact, you name me a literary work of repute (and in some cases controversy) and I can probably find you a court challenge against it from some 'Concerned Religious Moralist' or another. Why? Because odd as it may seem to you, people like me who are genuinely interested in Literature keep tabs on this type of thing.

The objection is not about Magic. That is only one of the surface objections. The real objection is that Harry Potter along with the works previously cited undermines these people's comfortable little world view that they have spoon fed to them by a representative of the diety of their choice each week.

Finally I bring before you the case of Mary Renault's The King Must Die. When it was published, waaaay back in the day during the dying days of the 1950's conformity movement it created a controversy of epic proportions. The reasoning? 'It promoted hedonism'. The real reason? The religious men were uncomfortable having a women write from the male locus instead of the female locus. Especially in a book that had some exploration of sexuality. Even worse, it's main character questions 'The Gods at one point -- although he does eventually come to the conclusion that they know what is best and that it is best to accept their decisions on the last page as he (Theseus) watches his father commit suicide on the last page.

The charges of hedonism were not unfounded, but really these people were just angry because she shook the foundations of their world view. When it comes down to it, Renault included sex in her writing without giving any graphic descriptions of the act itself.

And just as a brief add on, A Farewell to Arms by Ernest Hemingway has also been challenged. Challenged over one single sentence. A sentence where, unless you are a dirty old pervert (like oldwolf on Ficwad) you will not understand that a sexual act has taken place.

The real reason they were challenging, it's anti-war content questioned their world view. This isn't about Magic. It's about people unwilling to think critically.

And for the record, A Farewell to Arms was probably the most depressing book I ever read (and I've read The Bluest Eye and All Quiet on the Western Front). It made me tear up, and anyone who thinks that war is a glorious thing needs to sit down and have a good long read.

Ah yes, I thought this would crop up. The reason Christianity opposes Magic (the real reason) is because what Jesus and the other Saint's as well as God etc. do is perform what amounts to 'Magic' except when they do it, it is called a 'Miracle'. The reason is that they have essentially declared that those who do Miracles on Earth were granted that power by God. And God is the only one who has that Power, because God said let there be light. When Harry says 'Let there be Lumos!' it upsets their carefully constructed World View. For he is a human being not granted his power by God, but by birth and merit.

Furthermore, Rowling seems to have set him up as a Christ Figure which makes them even more antsy.

Similar objections were lodged against The Lord of The Flies they claimed 'savagery' and 'violence' but what they really meant was 'Simon is a Christ Figure and this book asks one too many uncomfortable questions... Lets complain.'

I don't Think these people are morons, I Know these people are morons. By showing an unwillingness to critically examine their own world view (something which this proud Atheist does on a daily basis, including the God question) these 'Christians' -- and I use the term loosely because what they are doing is flagrantly un-Christian -- are showing that as in the cases of The King Must Die, Song of Solomon, A Wrinkle in Time, and A Farewell to Arms, they prefer groupthink and doublespeak to legitimate discussion of societal questions. In this case, the question is 'Good v. Evil' -- and if Harry Potter were about a kid who lost his father on 9/11 going to Afghanistan to go out and kill Osama Dead they would endorse it wholeheartedly.

Or even better, if it were a sensationalized and patently misleading account of the Anthrax attacks called The Demon in the Freezer they would give it a glowing endorsement. Even though it takes a graphing calculator to add up the combined number of times the author changes tense in mid-sentence. It would take SETI's combined computing power to figure out just how many factual errors the author made. I'll give you a hint, the book starts off with the wholly erroneous claim that 'Saddam had nukes, chemical weapons, and waspursuing smallpox.' A claim which *shock* has been thoroughly disproved as intelligence continues to leak out. Most notably, The Downing Street memo which at one point concludes 'The facts were being fixed'.

Just out of curiosity, can you prove that you are right? And please note that this proof needs to be verifiable. The phrase 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence' springs to mind.

Oh wait! You can't prove it. Can you? Unless you want to admit The Bible as evidence, at which point I will gleefully bring up the gnostic gospels which were left out of The 'Official' Bible. Or in statistical terms - and continuing with the Courtroom there -- that would be like admitting a study as part of a Brandeis brief but not telling the Court that you had left the other 2/3rds of the study out of the brief because it undermined your case. In other words, you would be deliberately misrepresenting the facts, and when the attorney opposite you pulled out the full study you would feel -- and look -- like a jackass.

So yes, he can in fact say 'You are stupid.' and 'You are wrong.' It won't make him right, and if he were a DA he wouldn't lose the case because that argument alone wouldn't cross the reasonable doubt threshold... However, he is perfectly justified in saying so.

I wouldn't happen to agree with his argument though as it rings a little too close to the 'Harry is bad because I'm unwilling to question myself' argument put forth by the Fundies.

Actually, I see these people as the epitomy of what is wrong with Christianity. The money used to fund their legal team could actually do good in the world (alms to the poor). Instead they try to force their Religious beliefs on another group of people. Something which (if they had read their Paul carefully enough) they would know was an un-Christian thing to do. Instead of making a biblical argument to the people they went to a High Priced team of lawyers (for this I am referring not to the letter itself but to the various legal challenges made against the Harry Potter series by Religious -- usually Christian -- Fundamentalists).

It's not just about the Bible, it's not just about Magic, it is about Core Beliefs and a group of people unwilling to accept even a smidgen of independant thought.

 

now i can understand people getting a little freaked out if there was a mass production geared towards kids of some of the stories that we on this forum want to see.

but the cannon harry potter while may have some faults in the end it'll be seen as a story of love, people coming together, and some other bullshit for the kids.

I'm sure if harry potter came in a religious person and converted some of the magical children they wouldn't care, but because there is no religion in the book it must obviously be the work of the devil and it's currupting the youth.


its just sad