I think we have different ideas on what it means to be a Stu. I think I'm more old-fashioned- I believe a Stu is a character without flaws, awesome powers and is loved by everyone.Simply put, the author's favorite character who succeeds through various contrived ways. Some people nowadays throw the Stu title on any character that is even slightly overpowered, whatever.

Kvothe quite clearly has flaws, this has been shown time and time again, and he doesn't always get his way. He's gifted but that doesn't always count for as much as you would think. It's ridiculous that he's considered a Stu. Hell he's a pretty good example of how to do a good smart protagonist without him going off the rails and bench-pressing the universe. A lot of Kvothe's successes are either cancelled out by his failures or tempered in some way. I really don't mind reading about him build a magic arrow-trap because at the end of the day it really doesn't break the universe.

This is ridiculous. Santi's Harry is just as much a prodigy as Kvothe, no one calls him out on that yet for some reason people jump on this particular character like a dog with a bone.

@trooper: Kvothe doesn't fit into the universe? Please elaborate on that.

 

Lol, I don't think I can explain it any better than I've already done. Like I said, its very hard for me to put it into words. If I have failed to convey what I wanted to, then I'll just end this discussion by saying I didn't enjoy reading the first book as much as I think I could have. I finished the first book feeling a tad bit disappointed. Several parts of which I found tedious to read. I at the moment blame this on Kvothe being a Gary Stu (And after this discussion I'm very much confused whether that word is appropriate or not). If it helps any, the most tedious part was reading about Kvothe when he was living on the streets. At which time by the way, I was having flashbacks of some of the worst HP fanfiction where Harry lives on the streets.

\()/

 

Kvothe is clearly a Gary Stu. He is as much of one as anyone has ever been - possibly more. Yet, at the same time, it works. Or at least, it did before all his memetic sex god shit in Wise Man's Fear. Name of The Wind was the story of one of those characters that is in the background of every story - the absurdly powerful and talented character like Dumbledore who serves as the archetypical mentor, only in NoTW Rothfuss asked the question "What about HIS story."

Wise Man's Fear was the story of a massive Gary Stu.

 

I agree that him in the streets during NotW is hard to read. But in no way is because that part makes him a Gary Stu. I think it is just really long and boring focusing almost solely on story development and having a tough time keeping the readers attention.

So basically there are two definitions, one that is Kvothe and one that is not:

Gary Stu- a character so talented and powerful that he is never truly challenged and therefore never really an interesting story. (Not Kvothe)

Gary Stu- a character that is talented and powerful, almost more so than any other character in the story, but uses his wit and charm in imaginative but realistic ways to advance the story. (Definitely sounds like Kvothe)

So I guess the real question, does it ultimately detract from the character and/or story if Kvothe is considered a Gary Stu (via the later definition of the word)?

 

That's not a Gary Stu though, that's a talented, intelligent character putting his skills to use. Besides which, it's not only the personal characteristics of the protagonist that label him a Gary Stu. It's the way in which he interacts with other characters, and vice versa.

A Gary Stu is almost universally loved (often except for a single character), which Kvothe definitely isn't. A Gary Stu faces no obstacles that are difficult to overcome, which doesn't apply to Kvothe in any way. He spent the majority of two books in crippling poverty to the point where he struggled to buy food for himself in one of the richest cities in the world. The way he got through that was by putting his own talents to use and knowing the right person to help him, and even that was almost nullified by Ambrose's dickery.

A part of it is probably Denna's character. The majority of people on here don't like her character, seeing that she's almost perfect in Kvothe's eyes, and since we're being told the story from his point of view, in our eyes too. It's one of the ways stories written in first person can backfire spectacularly, as this appears to be, because a flawed narrator such as Kvothe isn't objective enough to give Denna enough depth for fourth wall breaking readers.

So really, I think it's probably a result of the interaction between Kvothe and Denna (and later Felurian) that's putting people off this series, which is unfortunate because Denna ain't going anywhere... Probably.

 

Which is why Rothfuss used that dickish fae guy (who's name I can't remember) to point out that Denna was just a girl with her own flaws and that Kvothe was putting her on a pedestal,specifically to show Kvothe as a bit unreliable. People sometimes tend to mistake an unreliable narrator for a bad writer, they're not the same. Just because it's in first person doesn't mean it's in the writer's voice.

But Rothfuss doesn't do himself any favors sometimes. If Kvothe could ever be called a Gary Stu, it's not when he's in school or using sympathy, but when he has a lute in his hands. That's where it got a bit much tbh. Everything else works in the universe, Kvothe reducing the audience to quivering puddles with his voice goes a bit too far.

As for Exile's second definition of Gary Stu, that's not Stuism, it's not even being overpowered if done right.If the writer can present appropriate challenges (and Rothfuss does) it doesn't matter if the character can one-shot cities. Kvothe isn't even the most powerful person in his verse. Hell, the Chandrian are still alive and well, while he's a broken down innkeeper in Nowhereville, he is not winning.

 

It may be from a modern perspective, but think of it this way. This society is pre-industrial in every sense of the word. Common entertainment during this era were minstrels and plays, with little else out there readily available. So it would seem to me that a thoroughly tragic ballad (as most songs in this story are) performed by one of the best musicians in the world would be such a moving experience as to only be heard a couple of times in a person's life. It would be like... when I watched the Lion King for the first time as a child. It was moving, brilliantly written and the musical score was superb, and it was like nothing I'd ever seen before.

In that situation I'm more than willing to believe that Kvothe could reduce a crowd to tears. It has happened before; well done operas (for those who enjoy them) regularly bring out such displays in the audience.

 

I agree that the music in this book is hard to quantify in today's society as there isn't much that can compare to what we are so privileged to have everyday. Music, well done music, was very hard to come by in such a time and place.

Also from what I've been told of Stu-isms I agree that Kvothe doesn't quite fit the description, unless you overlook the glaring obstacles he had. If his parents had never died and had grown up privileged then he clearly would have been something boring and gloriously overpowered. There are things done wrong with this book but I don't think it is the characterization of Kvothe.

I'm so happy somebody pointed this out. You sorta pick up on it with Kvothe's friends descriptions of Denna's interactions but she is not the end all be all of women. I think some people don't give enough credit to fool-hearted love. Maybe you've never been head over heels for somebody but it is very hard to point out their flaws. Maybe it is annoying to read but you can't say it isn't an accurate retelling from his 1st person view, which is very entertaining in most other places.

 

If you have such a big problem with it why waste money and time on the books? Seriously. Either you like Kvothe or you don't. Either he is too much for you or he isn't. I enjoy Kvothe. He is a talented, brilliant kid who gets in way over his head and fights and scrapes his way to the top. He is a great sympathist, a talented namer, an okay swordsman, and an extraordianry musician. His legend has been told and retold with more exaggeration added every time. In reality with in 10 years from the time he starts the university he is nothing; a shell of his former self.

 

Just saying, but...

Well, how many times have you heard this exact same line, more or less, from offended fanfic authors responding to negative reviews?

 

I have to agree with the "Kvothe isn't a Gary-Stu" camp for the most part, though it's fair to say he has some Gary stu traits. Here's a summary of their common traits and how they apply to Kvothe, courtesy of the Epistler (http://web.archive.org/web/20070702062215/http://anti-shurtugal.com/epistle5.htm) The criteria in red support Kvothe being a Stu, while the ones in blue are against him being a stu. Non-colored are ones that could go either way.

1. Sues tend to be good-looking - Really subjective criterion. I can't think of any instances in which Pat glorifies Kvothe's looks, but it is suggested he's at least reasonably attractive. idk....​

2. They have tragic pasts - Kvothe's parents and the rest of his troupe are slaughtered, forcing him to live as a beggar for three years in a big, unfriendly city.​

3. They also have special powers - Kvothe's skills aren't really special per se. Though he's really good in sympathy, sygaldry, and learns fast, we've seen many other people with skills as good as, or even better than his, such as Devi. Now, if Kvothe was the only one who could use these skills, then this criterion would indicate he is a Stu. ​

4. Every ‘good’ character automatically loves them - Without getting into the whole "What is good and what is 'evil'" debate, this is no contest. Carceret, an esteemed Ademre mercenary, doesn't like Kvothe. And for good reason. Kvothe receives her mother's sword, learns the Adem fighting style in spite of being an outsider. My point is, While Gary-Stu's are usually disliked for obvious, silly reasons by usually envious characters, PR gives a significantly valid moral advantage to another character besides Kvothe. ​

5. The Sue receives all the attention in the story – a Sue is like a black hole into which all else is inevitably sucked. They can even warp the laws of space and time - KKC is a biography, so this it more in accordance with the style PR chose, as opposed to literary masturbation. That said, Kvothe talks a lot about other people in his life and we get some insight into their characters, such as the Maer, Elodin, Denna. Though it's his life, it's not just about Kvothe. ​

6. Sues are also generally the same age, race and gender as their creator - Not quite. Though Pat is a white male (like Kvothe), he's aged 33 (I think?) while Kvothe is 16. ​

7. They do the things their creator would like to do - I don't know what Pat would like to do, so it's hard to say. This is N/A​

8. They have romances with canon characters the author finds attractive - Denna isn't glorified, at least not overtly, so it's hard to say whether or not Pat even finds her attractive. I'm not sure we could even say Kvothe and her are in a relationship, at least not yet.​

9. They often have special companions/sidekicks (eg a talking cat) - Kvothe has none of these. Bast is his student with an identity of his own and exists for other reasons beside just making Kvothe more powerful.​

10. They are more powerful than even the most powerful characters - Barring the very, very brief control he had over Felurian, Kvothe's powers are limited. The Chandrian are still on the loose, he seeks the Amyr's aid in finding them, and Devi pwns him in sympathy. 10 years later, Kvothe appears to be anything but powerful.​

11. They own special personalised weapons/other special items which no-one else has - I don't have a book on me and am not quite sure if he has anything besides Caesura. Anyone have any ideas?​

12. They have silly, overly fancy names, often including titles - The flame, the thunder, the broken tree. Not overly fanciful, but I can concede this one. (Edit 12/31/11: I forgot to mention Shadicar, Six strings, Maedre, E'lir, Dulator, the Bloodless, the Arcane, Kingkiller, and....I think that's all?)
​

13. They learn things with unrealistic speed - Even after all the training with the Ademre, a 10 year old girl still can beat him at swordplay. He still hasn't mastered naming, and had to work hard at sympathy, sygaldry, and alchemy.​

14. They are extremely annoying - I'll leave this one up to you Kvothe seems very likeable, but PR can't please everyone.

 

Sorry for the double post, but no one's replied in over a month I just re-read something in NotW that may offer some more insight into our timeline. If I'm not mistaken, we've assumed all along that it was around 10 years ago that Kvothe went into hiding, changed his name to Kote, became an inn-keeper, etc. However, on page 47 of the paperback edition, we get this:

"Chronicler gave a small, tight sigh and continued, 'But what's done is done. Won't you even consider...'
Kote shook his head. 'It was a long time ago-'
'Not even two years,"
'-and I am not what I was,' Kote continued without pausing.
'And what was that, exactly?'
'Kvothe,' he said simply, refusing to be drawn further into any explanation. 'Now I am Kote. I tend to my inn."

Perhaps I obssess over minutiae, but it sounds like he changed only two years ago. If Kvothe is 16 by the end of day two's telling, and in the present frame Kvothe is implied to be around 25, then I wonder how day three's going to cover all of that time...Assuming, of course, that Kote picks up right where he left off on Day Two.

Does it fit together? Kinda, sorta? Maybe if you look at it from a mile off? lol

 

I agree with you. The text is pretty explicit on that, after all. And maybe I missed it before, but this is the first concrete piece of evidence I've seen with regards to the Kvothe legitimately changing his name theory. It made sense earlier, but now it's even clearer.

 

Aren't we just assuming he's 25, since that's what he looks? I don't remember his age actually being mentioned as a fact, just as an 'he looked to be in his mid-twenties' type of thing. Add on that he's stated to look older than he is a lot, could be that he is only 18-19. Also, the 'Fae look' could have something to do with it.

 

Isn't it the opposite? That he's stated to be older than he looks? <_<

 

I don't see day 3 covering 6 or 7 years in the same way as days 1 and 2. He is more than willing to skip over things he doesn't consider important. He glances over 2 or 3 terms after he comes back from Vintas and mentions the important things: denna, naming, pissing off Hemme, Elodin. I think he will finish out the university setting like that. And most of his actual traveling, similar to how he mentioned the trip to Vintas.

 

Sorry to interrupt this discussion, but I was just wondering something.
I can say we all think that one day Kvothe will complete or create the song his father attempted to write. We know he will find their names, and knows their signs, so I bet he eventually found their reason, goals and purpose. So I can fully see him creating the needed song, filled with every bit of Chandrian lore that they have over the centuries attempted to distort or wipe away. If he simply avoids saying the names aloud, he wont be stopped in its development.
The biggest issue would be spreading the song, sure he could paste the song on many walls over the whole city, but why would any one ever remember a song they never heard. SUre he could sing it in the taverns and inns, but that would not stop the seven from attempting to wipe out who ever hears it. WHat he needs to do is sing it to the largest crowd of arcanist and symphasts as he can in the university? While the seven are feared through out the four corners, they would kill a family of farmers, or a troupe of performers, but would they really attempt to attack such a large gathering. THat city is full of those that have studied the magical arts so could be a threat through sheer numbers.
I am sure that hidden in the stacks, is knowledge that the chandian would love to destroy but they never started a fire to make sure it is destroyed. My guess that this university, or the one before it was built with protections, that give it a modicum of safety.
What do you guys think?

DO we ever learn who the singers are?
As the guardians of that evil seer still hunt the chandrian, would they now hunt Kvothe?

 

Laughable given what we know of the Chandrian.

I'm not sure why Kvothe is spreading the song. Seems like he would find all the information in the song, but completing it? Besides the fact that he only ever heard a single verse sung, songwriting seems rather tame in comparison to what he has in mind for the Chandrian.

Apart from the atrocious grammar, there is no evidence to suggest that they wouldn't. Strong evidence points to the Chandrian being related to or directly being an army from the Creation War, which destroyed empires.

Again, a very unsubstantiated claim. The Stacks and Lorren by association are quite mysterious. Lorren is in a unique position to filter information, and its likely he is either working for Chandrian or maybe the Amyr (Order Amyr?). Coupled with the very likely prospect of Chandrian knowledge being banned or destroyed by previous librarians, it is very difficult to say anything clearly about the Stacks. Thats not even mentioning the Four Plate Door.

Interesting statement. Aside from certain theories about Copper and its properties, no method of blocking or warding as such has ever been mentioned. But the good part is the 'or the one before it'. Im interested as to how you came to the conclusion that there was a previous university, since I hold the theory that Imre and the University are the ruins of a pre Creation War city (The Bellows) and that statement may hold some truth in my context.

No-one knows who the Singers are. Thats book 3 stuff. Im not sure if you're referring to the singers with the second part of the question, but if you are, its all unknown. If not, who are you talking about?

There. Seriously responding to a Syed post. These books are worth it.

 

Elodin specifically says the university was built on the ruins of an older university when explaining to Kvothe why was he wasn't expelled towards to the end of NotW.

Also my understanding is that there were several empires and thousands of years between the creation wars and the present. Skarpi says even history books of the time have fallen to dust. And then much later in NotW Fela mentions scrolls from before Caluptena burned.

Caluptena is mentioned several times and seems like it must have been fairly important. And if scrolls from that time are still around but history books from the creation war are gone, it would make seen that the creation war was much older than Caluptena because new massive cities don't spring up in the matter of a couple of years. So odds are the ruins are from the last few centuries before the current university was built.