Okay I am very much at risk of sounding like an idiot but thats never bothered me before so I will plow on anyway.

I never really thought this an issue when I read The Deathly Hallows. I read the final fight scene, took a moments thought and then decided I had figured out what had happened.
I am referring specifically to the scene:

"Expelliarmus"

"Avada Kedavra"

I recently had a mini-discussion with my sister and found she had interpreted what had happened completely differently to me. I figured that Harry had a rare moment of genius like manipulation and had taunted Voldemort with the knowledge that he was the Master of the Elderwand. With his knowledge of Voldemort's history and psyche he correctly anticipated that Voldemort would in that moment use a disarmer to become the owner of the Elder Wand. Knowing that he would cast and what it would be, he used the moment Voldemort cast the disarming spell to cast his only Killing curse. The curses met mid air and the expelliarmus reflected back at Voldemort, the killing curse carrying on. End result both spells hit Voldemort so he dies and the elderwand flies through the air into Harry's hand.

My sis didn't really think it through, she just assumed Harry cast the expelliarmus and some kind of High jinx happened due to Harry being the Master of Death. Naturally I thought I had it right and so did she.

Soon after that I actually got round to watching Deathly Hallows Part 2 and in Harry is clearly casting the expelliarmus in the last scene with hi-jinx happening due to the destruction of the Horcruxes (insert sister smug glance).

In addition I have a somewhat hazy memory of reading a post on here loosely referencing how Harry's expelliarmus shouldn't have worked in book 7.

I just wondering how everyone else interpreted the scene. Did you think Harry cast the Disarmer or the Killing Curse?

 

I thought it was obvious?

Expelliarmus is Harry's signature spell, as the Killing Curse is Voldemort's.

 

Rowling used a Deus ex mechanic to allow for a weak character to 'vanquish' but not kill a truly terrifying individual. There was no genius. Harry was either led around by the nose by Dumbledore (and a dead Dumbledore at that), or Deux ex saved the day (such as his use of expelliarmus on Malfoy).

Now, your interpretation is most likely wrong. It seemed apparent that Harry used the Expelliarmus. The reason he won was because he was the master of the Elder wand (or perhaps even the master of death). As far as I could tell, he either won because the Elder wand wouldn't hurt its own master, so it killed Voldemort instead, or he won because he became the Master of Death in general after attaining the Elder wand, so the Killing Curse itself would never work against him.

Honestly, much of it fails to make sense. Don't take anything too seriously with Rowling, because she didn't think it through in the way that a group of hundreds on a forum can. That's what makes fanfiction so easy to write in many cases. You can change stuff around and do whatever you want with the magical system because the links between actions and consequences are not as deeply intertwined as they are in many other works of literature (if you could call Harry Potter literature...).

 

but that makes literally no sense. I would challenge anyone to justify how the disarmer could have come from Harry. The wand not wanting to harm Harry is a weak argument, it worked perfectly well when Voldemort AK'd him the first time (inadvertently destroying his horcrux) The spell itself should have failed if the wand didn't want to harm Harry + How does a disarmer kill someone.
The way I figured makes sense. She just left it vague so it would remain child friendly.

Actually the fact it was vague supports my interpretation. If Harry cast the disarmer, simply write that; she had no problem writing it in every other scene. Now there is different kettle of fish if Harry cast the AK, its a kids book and Harry is the hero so you deliberately leave it vague and let the older crowd figure it out.

 

But then there's the fact that writing, 'Harry shouted' and 'Voldemort wailed' after the spells might break the flow of a pivotal scene. Personally, I thought Harry cast the disarmer and Voldemort the Killing Curse because Harry's unusual choice of spell preference for the jinx was noted back in the escape from Privet Drive.

Edit: This should probably be here rather than in its own thread.

 

Now that I think about it this kind of ambiguity would be a nice touch to otherwise disappointing scene of the Dark Lord's final defeat. It would be up to the reader if in the last moments of their battle Harry and Voldemort stayed true to their natures or become mirror reflections of each other. A true equals.

Not to mention that Expelliarmus is smarter choice of spell in this situation for Dark Lord.

That said, Rowling never made any mystery from the fact who shouted what and the movie further confirms it.

 

Okay scrap what I just wrote I was looked online for the scene I was remembering reading years ago. Obviously there has been new editions of the book released since I read it (first edition naturally). The newer ones are more explicit and plainly state that it was Harry's disarmer.
Absolute nonsense from JKR yet again. That book has just lost what I thought was one of the few redeeming features.

The Power He knows Not =/= Slytherin cunning.
The Power He Knows Not = Illogical nonsense

p.s. Does make you wonder about what else has changed

 

And now you understand why I think these threads are pointless. Everyone with an interesting idea is shot down by the facts of canon, so all we can say is 'this is why we write fanfiction.'

 

I thought the power he didn't know was either love or the DH. Can't remember.

 

I actually prefer your idea to canon.

 

That. It's actually kinda neat in a weird sort-of way, and I can't imagine what it's like for the OP to have that illusion shattered after all these years, lol. Also, is that "DP" in the title bugging anyone else or is it just me?

 

^^

Darry Potter

 

I'm relying on the fact that Harry's disarming spell and the Killing Curse met in midair. Seeing as Harry was the master of death and actually intended on living this time, the Elder Wand wouldn't work against him. The Expelliarmus rebounded the killing curse, which hit Voldemort and was followed shortly thereafter by the disarm. Thus Voldemort's dead and Harry gets the wand.

It's stupid, Rowling logic at its best.

 

Double Penetration Vs Lord Voldemort.

Can he handle two at once?

 

Donkey Punch vs Little Vagina?

If it's the final fight, who won the first round? Was it victory by TKO?

 

How is "Slytherin cunning is 'The Power he Knows Not" an interesting idea? I find it retarded at best. How does Voldemort not know Slytherin cunning?
Isn't he, as Tom Riddle, supposed to be the embodiment of your stereotypical Slytherin? Malicious, intelligent, ambitious, no-friends-just-allies mentality, and most importantly, cunning?

 

I was referring specifically to cunning, which I do not thing Lord Voldemort showed one iota of throughout the books. Hell both Pettigrew and Snape beat him hands down in cunning.

I remember reading the beginning of the scene and thinking
Why the fuck is Harry telling LV he is the master of the Elder Wand? Keep that shit to yourself! Don't give him more reason to want you dead.

The calm talking down to Voldemort seemed so out of place on Harry. It was almost Dumbledorish (now that is a cunning fucker).
Then I read the AK, Expelliarmus moment with Harry ending up with the wand and thought

The sneaky bugger was goading him- Good on you

It's more than a little deflating to realise no such brilliance occured. The boy is brain dead.
Seriously, why the hell would you use a disarmer as your final spell. What the hell! Sectumsempra would be better- you are meant to be killing this man. If I was in the audience I would have crucio'd the stupid shit on the spot regardless of whether his expelliarmus worked (plus dibs on the elder wand you just announced you own to the world for apparently no reason).

 

For the short answer, ^this.

Exactly. Rowling never set out to write an epic fantasy - she set out to write an underdog morality tale. And that's where most readers' problem lies: They were led to believe, through 5 (6?) books that Harry would have to learn to fight, to use his bravery and heart to actually kill this terrifying monster. And in the end, Rowling used the "brave enough to die for others" version of courage to get the job done.

I personally am no longer upset by it, and can enjoy fanfiction as a separate entity without wishing (much, anyway) that JKR had gone the epic fantasy route. Because honestly, I doubt an attempt at that on her part would've ended much better, with how the book quality plummeted in books 6 and 7.

Of course, I'm not a huge fan of epic or high fantasy anyway, so perhaps I'm over it more easily than all you hard-core scifi/fantasy folks.

It's the first one - that the Elder Wand refused to kill its Master, although that seems so flimsy and weak in light of the fact Rowling herself has stated the Elder Wand is the most fickle of wands, period.

And there's absolutely NO hidden power to that "Master of Death" title, other than the philosophical power of "one masters death only when one no longer fears it."

I do call it literature, because as I said, it's a morality tale or, more accurately, a Christian Symbolism tale. And for what it was/is, it's pretty solid. Yes, there is more than one deus ex at work, but it was never meant to be picked apart. I mean, don't you roll your eyes at A Connecticut Yankee, yet still see the message Twain was trying to convey? Sure, it's one of his worst works, but it was effective enough that I still recall it fondly all these years later.

It worked perfectly well because Harry was willing to die. That one difference is larger than anything else, and was the only reason Harry wasn't killed along with the Horcrux.

I can't say I don't like the idea, but JKR would never have done that, simply because she wanted Harry's soul to remain "clean." Whatever the fuck that means...

The "Master of Death" thing is just a legend that sprang up around the three Hallows items, and it was because Harry was Master of the Elder Wand that LV's Killing Curse rebounded that time. If he'd lost the Ring and the Cloak before facing Voldemort that last time, Harry would still have won, because those two have nothing to do with the Elder Wand other than being made by the brothers of the wand's maker.

I agree on this part. I've actually written a couple scenes for a story that addresses this, having Harry kicking himself for essentially shouting it to the world that he's the Master of the Elder Wand. It really does put an enormous target on his back.

That was written to show that despite everything he's been through, Harry does not hate even Voldemort, the person responsible for all of that stuff. I actually think it's pretty awesome that Harry never loses himself completely to revenge or bloodlust. He has this course laid out for him and he walks it because it's the right thing, and he still, in the end, has empathy/sympathy/pity for Voldemort, after seeing what was left of LV's ruined soul in the ghostly train station.

Maybe it's just me, but I can look back fondly on these parts (most of the time), despite feeling like HBP and half of DH were useless filler.

ALSO: Since Harry "died" willingly in the Forest, effectively recreating the Love Shield (TM) the same way his mum did, the people he died for (which was everyone) were then protected from Voldemort, right?

So when LV was fighting all those people (Kingsley, McG, and Slughorn?), were his spells being rocketed back at him? If Voldemort had cast the Killing Curse, would it have rebounded from one of them, killing Voldemort again (for good, since he was mortal again) and making THAT person the _____-That-Lived?

Hmm.

McGonagall: The Biddy-That-Lived
Slughorn: The Walrus-That-Lived
Kingsley: The Nigger-That-Lived

{sorry, had to write that last one, despite my PC misgivings about the N-word...}

 

That may be, but it's an 'empty' empathy, as devoid of substance as everything else that Rowling wrote in the last book.

Harry gives Riddle the chance to 'feel remorse' ... ostensibly so Riddle can redeem himself and restore his soul.

But Harry knows full well that this is impossible; he'd personally seen to it that all of Riddle's other soul fragments had been destroyed. Evaporated.

So even if Riddle had gotten down on his knees and apologised to all and sundry it would have done no good.

Harry was *taunting* Riddle, offering him an empty promise of redemption. A promise he couldn't make good.

That was more failed writing from Rowling. She was so desperate to keep her little 'secrets' up until the very endl, the final melodramatic cliched showdown, she went so far as to lie and cheat to her readers. Harry casts a shield to protect Neville against the dark lord's killing curse. Then he follows the dark lord into the castle, invisibly casting Protego spells to protect other students from Voldemort.

Only to tell us, three seconds later, that it didn't matter, he need not have done it, every single person in the castle was shielded by the just-like-Lily's-sacrificial-protection-only-completely-different sacrificial protection.

Bollocks.

Likewise Rowling cheated in her descriptions of Voldemort's spells and their effects, just so she could keep the JLLSPOCD protection a secret. His spells *appear* to work. Not like Quirrel's magic against Harry in the first book, which either worked - binding him with ropes - or didn't - when physically assaulting the boy. No, Riddle's petrification spell *works* on Neville ... until it doesn't (he throws it off later). The hat bursts into flames ... which don't burn. Voldemort takes on McGonagall, Slughorn and Shacklebolt and hurls them against the walls with ... 'deadly force', I think it goes?

But then we're told that it's all lies, they were all protected. Really.

Uh huh.

It's like everything else that Rowling wrote in the last book ... just a confused mish-mash of cliches, cute images and ideas all thrown together without any attempt at all to tie them into a consistent pattern that made sense.

 

Welcome to JKR-ville, keep your hands inside at all times, leave your brain at home, and enjoy the ride.

I used to be a canon-thumper of some anime series before I woke up. One of the big secrets to enjoying fanfictions is recognizing that nearly everything is an amalgamation/fanfiction of previous ideas, concepts and characters. Hardly anything original in fiction, even in biblical times if people go out and read the old religions. Applies to commerical works or fanworks just the same. In the end, it's more about having an enjoyable recipe than novel ingredients.