In PoS, Hermione said "there's more to being a wizard than spells and wand movements" or something like that. Harry could have stolen a time-turner and learned as much magic as he wanted, it wouldn't have made it possible to defeat Voldemort. It might have made the journey easier, but the end result wouldn't have been any better.

 

Really? Seems like Voldemort spent 2 years dealing wtih the prophecy, getting people in position and gathering power, while trying to find someway to kill Dumbledore and to a lesser extent HP before making his move. Soon as Dumbledore died it took like, a few weeks for the entire ministry to fall and for Voldemort to take over and set up a puppet? I mean all of book 7 was Voldemort in power.

I think the only thing that made it feel like a long time is that Harry spent 3/4 of book 6 dicking around with Malfoy and Ginny so it really lost a sense of urgency there.

 

I don't get why everyone insists that Dumbledore had to die before Voldemort could take over the Ministry. Where in canon do we get even the vaguest indication that Dumbledore has even the tiniest bit of influence there? He can't keep the Minister from stripping all his titles away from him at the drop of a hat, he can't keep his own staff from being arrested without evidence, and even though he's allegedly the head of the Wizarding judiciary and yet he can't even stall the execution of a Hippogriff when the only evidence there would have been one kid's testimony against several others'. And really, what would Dumbledore be able to do even if he knew a Minister was under the Imperius curse? Warn the public?

Really, if Voldemort had any idea how little sway Dumbledore really had in the Ministry, he would have had Lucius Malfoy put Fudge under the Imperius, send "Aurors" to bring Harry to St. Mungo's for "psychological evaluation" or some such bullshit, and leave him in a sealed-off ward of the hospital while he takes over the country. That would've been more efficient, and Harry could be killed at leisure without the public noticing.

 

There's two completely different issues there.

You're comparing Dumbledore's political influence, while he's choosing to play by the rules, to Dumbledore the general.

That he didn't have the political influence to stop Fudge in OotP says nothing of his ability to blast down the gates - his magical influence.

I would invite you to notice how Dumbledore was missing for most of HBP. I would contend that much of the time he was away from the castle was spent countering Voldemort.

The fact that Voldemort took the Ministry within weeks after Dumbledore died seems to further evidence this.

 

I'd counter that your conclusion and your premise are one and the same, and that Dumbledore's magical power can only do so much in a war, which is, as they say, the continuation of politics by other means. It doesn't matter that Dumbledore could overpower an imperiused minister and his guards; what he can't do is convince the public that the minister was under the imperius curse, and if he can't do that then it just looks like he attacked the Minister of Magic unprovoked. That would accomplish nothing as far as actually defeating Voldemort; hell, it would actually help Voldemort in certain ways.

Edit: I wrote the first part of this on my phone, so I didn't get into as much detail as I could have. One thing I would add to the above is that if Dumbledore was such a threat to Voldemort's control of the Ministry in HBP, then why did Voldemort spend an entire year waiting on Draco's half-baked assassination plot? Don't go postulating an off-screen secondary assassination scheme; Doyle at least had the decency to tell his readers that there was a battle of wits going on between Holmes and Moriarty in The Final Problem - if JKR's too lazy to do even that, then I'm not interested in filling in her plot holes for her. And I'd also ask you to refrain from saying that Voldemort always expected Snape to take over Draco's plan it make it succeed, because even getting everyone to the Astronomy Tower took a shitload of luck. Voldemort had no right to expect Draco to succeed in fixing the Vanishing Cabinet; Borgin did say it might be impossible. He also had no right to expect that Dumbledore would come back to Hogwarts crippled; if he wasn't, then he would have mopped up the Death Eaters, and quite possibly before Snape arrived. Come to think of it, if Voldemort had planned for Snape's involvement in the attack, then he would have had a way to alert Snape as to when Death Eaters were coming, rather than wait for Flitwick to tell him. All the evidence suggests that Voldemort had little or nothing to do with Draco's plans; Dumbledore's head just happened to fall into his lap through sheer, dumb luck. If Dumbledore were an actual threat to Voldemort, then he would have fallen on account of some actual effort on the part of the latter. No such effort was exerted, therefore we have to assume there was no such threat.

 

Mmm I would ask myself how much influence has fanon and real life in these speculations, but the answer is clear, I think.
Evidence states that we can't go too far from what canon implies to make a centered opinion with 'if' and 'would be' scenarios.
It's true that Dumbledore could not prevent some of Malfoy's schemes, but do we know how many times he was successful? I, for my part, do not.
It's easy to criticize Dumbledore's actions or inactions with tomorrow's newspaper edition. But if you want to create an elaborated critic, you need facts. Speculation can't guide you every time.
Like Taure commented, I think that Dumbledore was stalling a lot of Voldemort's plans and actions in HBP. And that it was easy for Voldemort to make a successful coup in DH because his plans had two years in the making. Not eight weeks. And Dumbledore's death played a major role in said coup. If we don't take that in consideration, we're talking about fanon.

It surprises me how many of the new ones underestimate Harry's achievements in the first three books. I don't think that fighting a basilisk is as easy as a couple of users implied, even if its eyes are damaged. He was lucky, yes. But give the twelve year old some credit. See how much you last against that kind of foe.
He repelled a lot of dementors at the end of book 3. I would die easily against only one, don't want to think against dozens.
You need to adjust your perspective. PS, CoS and PA were written for children, you need to apply children's logic for a child hero.
Then, the angst in the fifth book... how many of you were that angsty at fifteen? I would say a lot, me included. We thought we're the center of the universe guys, come on. Be reasonable.
Sixth book, I read "monster in the chest" "Ginny" "bla, bla, bla". Yeah... You need to update your mind. We're in 2012, we all know the music, and we don't need the Greatest Hits volume.

 

Voldemort did consider Dumbledore an actual threat, and a very big one at that. There was no actual effort on Voldemort's part that could have taken Dumbledore down. The last time he, the Big Bad himself, went up against Dumbledore, he had to flee. You assume The Dracoplot was a half-baked plot - wrong - it wasn't a plot at all. It was just some bullshit suicide mission given to Malfoy, no details, instructions, etc. It's clearly stated that Voldemort expected Draco to fail, and then the Malfoy family would pay for the mistake.

Sure, Voldemort could counter Dumbledore politically using guys like Lucius, and even frustrate Dumbledore with his guerilla tactics, but to actually eliminate Dumbledore as an obstacle, he'd have to confront him head-on. Needless to say, if Snakeface dared show up, he'd get his scaly ass handed back to him. The only way he could take Dumbledore was through subtle means. He wasn't expecting to be rid of Dumbledore anytime soon; that he did was just unexpected, unplanned and downright fortuitous, as you pointed out.

 

I agree that seven books is too much for what happened, mostly because I think after book 4 the momentum disappeared. I disagree with your solution- you should instead join book 5 and 6- have the tension of knowing that Harry needs to regularly meet with Dumbledore to learn about Riddle's life while at the same time not seeming to come in contact at all to avoid Umbridge thinking they are conspiring against the Ministry.

It immediately explains why the information is drip-fed since they only have short meetings, it removes the complaint that Dumbledore is a complete bastard by keeping Harry in the dark, and it means that progress is made towards dealing with Voldemort.

The end of the year is much the same with the Department of Mysteries & Sirius dying, and 6th year is about slowly growing beyond Hogwarts. Maybe they go on a couple of horcrux hunts with bad information but often getting a bit more info each time, or helping create a network for Muggleborn parents to communicate, or maybe they find that since Voldemort did go further along the path to immortality than anyone else he used more than just horcruxes and find the other method he used and how to deal with it.

 

I'm straying a little away from what people are discussing at the moment, so forgive me if anyone is confused at what I am saying.



The things that bothers me about most fics that attempts to make Harry Potter a more awesome character they often lack a certain sense of charm and light-heartedness. Throughout the story, Harry was living on the edge, rarely having fun (besides killing Death Eaters), and being extremely task oriented.

It's ok to have those elements as long as the author can balance those dark moments with some light-hearted moments. However, there are very few authors that are capable of walking this tight rope, and as a result, the story becomes extremely exhausting to read a story that is dark and serious most of the time.

Most Indy! Harry stories end up making him too one dimensional as a character. Harry Potter, in a majority of such stories, tend to be a lone wolf figure, rarely enjoying himself with his friends and associate.

No matter how impressive Harry was in the story, this version of Harry rarely hold up well against many other original characters that are powerful, or awesome. I find the threats against this version of Harry more interesting to read than the actual character himself.

Compare him to characters like Dr Who, Batman, Sherlock Holmes and I just feel that Indy! Harry lacks the charm those other characters possess. I want to read more stories about those characters even when they are not being badass and destroying every opponent in their sight.

 

You're speaking as if the end game is a foregone conclusion. It is to us but it isn't to Harry. Yes, learning spells might not have helped him with Voldemort but it could have helped him with Centaurs, Spiders, Snakes and the countless Death Eaters he faced. As it stood any one of them had the ability to put an end to the story of Harry Potter and he should have spent time trying to counter them. Then we get into other issues like him discovering things. Without Hermione the Order would never have been as efficient because Harry didn't know the right spells to run a conspiracy. Without Neville and Crouch and Cedric Harry would not have scored in the GoF because he couldn't study on his own. These are all cases where greater knowledge might have helped him.

Also, it would make him a much less annoying and baffling protagonist.

 

In a way, it (annoyingly) is - thanks to the propecy. I don't disagree that Harry should have studied and practiced - but spreaking from our perspective (which is what we're doing), alls those things simply couldn't stop Harry. The only relevant conflict for Harry, as Dumbledore recognised, was with Voldemort.

How did Hermione teaching Harry spells help running the Order?
Without Crouch, Harry wouldn't have fared as well in the Tournament, true. Without Crouch, Harry wouldn't even have been in the Tournament as well, so it's somewhat of a moot point. (Neville and Cedric helped him by Crouch's design.)

 

Er, no. I'm pretty sure that the prophecy states that the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be Harry. It says nothing of him succeeding. Any number of things could have prevented Harry from getting to the point where he could beat Voldemort. Dumbledore probably felt that he could protect Harry from other threats, but that doesn't mean that they didn't exist.

I'm also not just speaking from my perspective. Judging characters by what you know when you have near omniscience is a bit unfair no? From what Harry knows he should have been taking Wizard Muscle Milk and practicing as much as possible. Or turned into a little nihilist that acknowledged the lack of control he had over his life. Neither happened.

Hermione using that spell with the coins gave the DA a good, quick way of meeting. It's not a whole lot but the point is that extra knowledge is good.

You're right on Crouch, but the fact remains that Harry was in a dangerous situation and was unable to extricate himself. Yes, Crouch put him in that situation, but what if Crouch was simply a rogue Death Eater trying to kill Harry? What would he have done then?

 

It doesn't even say he's only one with said Power.

"The one with the Power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches".
No 'only' there. Technically speaking, they could have all had the Power (and in canon, where it is Love, they did).

Not to mention
"For neither can live, while the other survives" is a Paradox since it doesn't specify a Time.
Harry survived + Voldemort lives => The Prophecy lies

 

What I meant was that "Harry and Voldemort facing off" is the necessary conclusion, and more training would have been conductive, but not necessary for Harry to reach this.
I don't like to think that the prophecy makes Harry immortal to anything other than Voldemort, but it is, after all, a prophecy. And if a certain point in the future is fixed, the present must necessarily lead to that fixed point.

If I rememveber correctly the topic was [the author] "making Harry Potter more awesome" - i.e. the actions of the (omniscient) author with regards to Harry, his skills and the prophecy.

DA != the Order
I agree(d), extra knowledge is good - but in this instance, not a prerequisite for the endgame.

It does say "the one". Not "someone", not "one of those", the one. Much like Neo was The One(tm) in The Matrix(R), I'm reasonably certain that precludes other people.

 

I'm not sure that I get your angle World so I'll do both possibilities:

1) You think that it doesn't matter from an authorial perspective because Harry will defeat Voldemort anyway. A bit...nihilistic but true. But the journey matters as well. Some of us want to see a more driven hero.


2) You think that it doesn't matter from an in-universe perspective because the prophecy locks Harry into fighting Voldemort personally. This is where we get into timey wimeyness. This is only true because Voldemort bought it. Even before the prophecy Harry was not cramming on meth and he knew for a fact that Voldemort was alive.

Harry doesn't find this out until the end of the fifth year. He learns about Voldemort being alive (definitively) at the end of the first year. Harry also knows that that portion of the prophecy depends on Voldemort needing to be the one to kill Harry. If he had changed his mind Harry would have been fucked. But then again, if he had changed his mind the prophecy might never have been written that way. Dumbledore claims that there is free will...I'm not so sure. Fucking timey wimey-ness.

Also, the prophecy doesn't necessarily demand confrontation. Couldn't I just as simply interpret the prophecy as saying that the mortal peril that it puts both people in makes it necessary for them to kill each other?

So yes, I can see why you would say that it technically doesn't matter to the overall plot, but it matters to the readers and it should matter to Harry for the majority of his time at school.

 

I remember I kept reading the books believing, quite naively, that the prophecy as better as promised us that Harry will be almost as "good" as Voldemort, no matter how angsty he became, how lazy, how annoying, how proficient Hermione became compared to Harry, I truly believed he will become awesome, HE NEVER DID! that's why I started to read fanfic, and for a time I read every super Harry garbage I could find and I enjoyed it. With time my tolerance to those fics decreased, I found DLP and for the first time I read a few stories that gave the genre innovation and change.

Making Harry as he is and Hermione by his side was a deliberate choice by Rowling, she was I think, drawing more readers, and I guess she succeeded.

 

Personally, the charm of the series to me is Harry reluctantly never backing down. It never even gets as far as taking a step forward, but he just doesn't back down. I know people say that it would be more realistic if he tried to survive but...I don't think so. It would be more logical, yeah. But people aren't that logical. Sometimes when you are faced with something that feels so overwhelming you distance yourself from it. Is that the most logical approach? Well, no. Procrastination is a bit suicidal at this point.

But it's real enough and adds some charm to the series that just makes it fun to me. I understand why people want a story with a dedicated, hungry Harry with a solid and explicit understanding of the magic system but that's not what I personally--and again I understand why people might want something else--look for in a story. I like that combination of the timid, reluctant hero and his adventures with the wonders of this unexplained, vague but certain magic.

I don't mind seeing Harry be strong, but I don't like seeing him decide to take action to become stronger because it feels like it shatters the tone of the series. And I know tone is something rather subjective and I may care about it more than other people, but...yeah. I just don't care about how good he is in a duel, how intelligent he is, or anything else like that.

What I care about is that during the series he grows from a timid young boy with no friends to somebody who willingly sacrifices himself for his friends. This is going to sound cheesy as hell, but Harry Potter's magical tone is the best thing about it. If you take that away, it's not something I'm particularly interested in reading. So most Super Harry stories are not my cup of tea, even if they are well written.

That said, I do love stories written by people skilled enough to create a fun, creative atmosphere/tone to go with their superpowers. Even if it's not the same tone that made me love the canon, it can still be pretty interesting. The only issue(and again this is mostly on me rather than the stories themselves) I think that the tone authors use doesn't really match the vibe the HP world gives, which makes for some strange reading.