Okay, what I think you should do with this is get rid of number 4. Then we get an interesting look at Harry possibly going crazy as his mind becomes overloaded with information. Then when he realises what is happening to him he tries to find a way to unlearn everything he's learned from the ring, but at the same time he needs the knowledge that the ring has given him if he wants to defeat Voldemort. So there's the whole dilemma of does he save himself but at the same time lose the chance to defeat Voldemort, or does he defeat Voldemort at the potential cost of his own sanity.

 

That's a pretty cool idea.

 

Harry and Ron arrive moments later then in canon and Hermione gets crushed by the troll. There is a few other differances like moving around the events of the books and maybe working in some odd vision idea that may or may not happen.

I'm more wondering if Hermione being killed off is a decent idea...

 

Ask yourself why you are killing her off? How does it affect Harry and/or Ron. Particularly since they aren't even friends at this point. Actually I think it's just a bad idea. I love Hermione though, so take that with a grain of salt.

Killing her when she doesn't matter isn't a good impetus for things to change imo. If you need to kill off one of Harry's friends as a catalyst for an alternate HP timeline, killing Hermione at the Basilisk is an option (still rather early imo), or you could kill Ron and/or Hermione at the end of GoF. I think it was Warlocke who threw that idea out in an thread a while back, basically one or the other (or both) follow fake Moody when he drags Harry off, and he pops one with a Killing Curse. bam! instant impetus for Harry's outlook to change, and whoever you leave alive. I actually started writing a stroy with this premise, but stopped because it wasn't going much of anywhere.

Equally the end of OotP works too for obvious reasons, you could even have it change events such that Sirius survives if you wanted.

Just some thoughts.

 

Dethryl pulled off the Hermione kill-off pretty well in his TSH series and it only worked because Harry was in Slytherin. Now that I think of it, Harry would be royally fucked had Hermione died in PS itself. Especially since Harry's best friend is Ron Weasley. An OWL exam fail is on the cards.

 

Actually, you have to wonder what Harry might have become without Hermione. In my opinion, Hermione was a crutch. He never really had to apply himself to his homework or much of anything else, because Hermione always had the answer that he needed, when he needed it.

IMO, this idea has merit, as it could explore both Harry and Ron being forced to get their shit together and stop acting like idiots.

Or, I suppose, it could show just how epically Harry would have fail in preventing Quirrell from getting the PS, as I believe that is where things would have ended for our hero (had he even made it that far), if he didn't step up and workharder.

 

Having Hermione die in the first book would have far reaching consequences. Would Harry and Ron figure out the Flamel connection? Would they want to? Harry, Ron and probably others know that Ron had a big part in Hermione's death so are they even friends anymore?
Wouldn't Malfoy jump at the chance to get Dumbledore kicked out over the death of a student? Would the plot of CS happen if Malfoy had just tangled with Dumbledore and lost, or Dumbledore is kicked out of Hogwarts and someone more Malfoy friendly is headmaster? PoA could go down the way it did, but only if you wanted to shoehorn the plot back into canon tracks. If not there would be no Pettigrew running, no return of Voldemort in the canonical way, etc.

My bunny:

I recently caught a rerun of the Dresden files episode "Things That Go Bump" and that gave me an idea.

What if the Deathly Hallows gave a person power to traverse the land of the dead? It kinda fits symbolically. The cloak shields you from the effects of the other side, the stone allows you to communicate with the spirits of the dead, the wand gives you control over the realm. If the DoM veil is the doorway to the land of the dead the effects of it even sort of mach the way touching the other side did in DF.

Since the it was DF that sparked the idea the story I imagine is a HP/DF cross. Potter is walking the land of the dead hanging out with great people of the past when he feels something intruding the realm. A burning curiosity drives him to investigate.

Here I have trouble deciding which moment in the episode would serve the story best. If it's just to have Potter in DF universe than perhaps just as they defeat the dragon. Harry watches the spectacle from the sidelines, only to find out that he has been pulled across when Mai returns the house to where it was. From here on it's the standard HP/DF where Potter has to team up with Dresden to defeat some big bad etc.

Or the other way I imagine the story going is Potter entering the house some time earlier. Perhaps just as Bob has returned from his foray into the other side. Bob, someone who doesn't belong there, entering the realm might be the thing that piqued his interest in the first place. Potter in this case would be far older and his driving motivation would have changed. The start would be him walking into the house and demanding to know how exactly a whole house ended up in his realm, continues as a standoff between the two sides and ends with Mai showing up. Here Potter learns that he isn't the only one that has the power to enter the realm of the dead at will and decides that he doesn't like it. It would not be hard for him to kill Mai and banish the rest of them back. From there on the story centers around Potter knowing that the realm of the dead is connected to more than one reality. Harry could seek out other realms, or go back to DF. He sort of lacks motivation, beyond mere curiosity and that wouldn't carry the story too far. So perhaps a catastrophe back in the HP universe is needed. Something that caused the world to slowly lose magic and Harry is searching for a new wellspring or something along those lines.

The second idea is just my obsession with Harry Potter wizards making a great big bad for other universes heroes. Someone has to write a decent story where Harry tears some other universe to pieces.

 

A 'crutch'?? I think you need to re-read Harry Potter books and decide for yourself how pathetic canon! Harry really was. Yes, he had quite a few positive points in him, but without Hermione, canon!Harry is nothing.

As for Malfoy getting Dumbledore kicked off, that would be even more disastrous for Malfoy. A full time Political!Dumbledore. Now that I think of it, it's a pretty good plot-bunny. I always felt Dumbledore put school duties before politics.

And no, the only person remotely Malfoy friendly is Snape and I don't think an ex-Death Eater would become the headmaster with Voldemort still partially dead. Dumbledore always went easy on Snape. I hardly think McGonagall would allow the same given the power.

 

I've read the books plenty of times and I do agree that canon!Harry is pathetic, but he never really had to be anything but pathetic thanks to Hermione.

I'm just saying that it would be interesting to see how Harry would evolve from child to adult without Hermione around. There is no telling where an author could take the story with her death early on, like that. Yes, it could result in disaster for Harry, but it could also result in a more competent Harry. Either way it would be an interesting read.

 

Thing is, without Hermione, PS simply wouldn't happen. Hermione's research and magical aptitude is essential to the plot.

It could also result in an even less competent Harry. Without Hermione, Harry would likely scrape by in Hogwarts even worse than he already does

I simply don't think that killing off Hermione in book one is a compelling divergence, particularly if you want a more competent Harry. I just don't think the incident provides a sufficient personal conflict for Harry to actually have to grow up over. Which is why you should do it later in the story, because Hermione dying a nobody wouldn't affect Harry. Hell, Sirius dying didn't affect his ethic at all, and he actually meant something to Harry.

By third or fourth year, Hermione's death becomes a powerful event because of their close relationship, in fact I would argue that hermione or Ron dying at in third/fourth year or later has the potential to change Harry far more than Sirius or Dumbledore dying ever did, because for all of their importancce to Harry, they weren't his best friends that he spent practically all his time for 8 months out of the year with.

---------- Post automerged at 11:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 PM ----------

I thought we were over bullshit like blaming Ron for Harry's incompetence. And calling Hermione a crutch too. By this point I would think we are all intelligent enough to realize that Harry's problems are Harry's and not inherited from either of his best friends.

Also Dethryl's work is not good, Almost Recommendable at best. And Hermione's death shouldn't have been there at all, because it was gratuitous and meaningless to the progression of the story.

 

It's not the idea that Hermione's death would act as a catalyst for Harry to do better that appeals to me with this idea. It the fact that we grow and learn the most about ourselves and who we want to be in our preteen/teen years.

We only saw Harry for a brief period before Hermione came into the picture, but he seemed to hold his own in his classes, as it was never mentioned that he was failing anything. He also had his moments in PS. In fact, a lot of the deductions that were made came from Harry, not Hermione, as well as information from Hagrid's loose lips. The bit about Nicolas Flamel being an alchemist was found on a Chocolate Frog card, a bit more research on their own and Harry and Ron could have easily found out that Flamel was the maker of the philosopher's stone. About the trap door, however, Hermione did notice that bit, so the rest wouldn't matter, I suppose.

Still, the point I'm trying to make is that Harry actually used his brain in his first year, but with each progressive year, he used it less and less. While not all can be blamed on Hermione on this front, the fact that she made it more often than not so that Ron and Harry didn't have to think was a contributing factor.

In all those times that Harry fell back on Hermione for answers, instead on pushing himself to find them on his own, he did himself a disservice.

If you've ever tutored someone, you'd know that helping a person by guiding them towards the answer without ever definitely providing the answers is 100% more motivating, beneficial, and longer lasting in the mind of the student than it is to freely hand out the answer and then explain where it the answer comes from.

Hermione was famous for rushing off, finding the answer, then bring it back to the boys with or without an explanation for how she drew her conclusion.

Basically, she did all the work, and if Harry ever had to do anything for himself, I believe that he might have been better off for it.

You don't have to kill Hermione off for this story plot to work. She could be sorted into Ravenclaw or something. However, removing her from Harry's side, while keeping Harry in Gryffindor would be an interesting exploration of his character development, IMO.

 

While I agree with your assessment BW, I can't help but feel that the problem lies within Harry himself. Unless he has a strong desire to be a better wizard, the company he keeps isn't going to help or discourage him in anyway. Hell, he and Ron Weasley can even become the most skilled wizards of their generation if Harry takes up the mantle.

Oh and Blackened Wasteland, I am still eager for the next update of 'The Forgotten'. The last update was like 2 months ago, or was it an year ago?

EDIT: You removed your works? Gaaahhhh.

In the genre of a Slytherin!Harry fics out there, TSH is one of the better ones. Year 5 is going to be posted in like a week or two. I for one hope Dethryl improved as an author.

 

I plan on reposting The Forgotten once I get rid of some of the crap that make me go 'WTF was I thinking?' :facepalm.

 

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point, since I feel Harry's issues are entirely his. If it was well-written I could certainly hand-wave the divergence though.

Honestly, it sounds to me like you just want to write a more competent Harry, so just write that. I have to agree that Harry was more competent in PS than in any most of the rest of the series, so why not just have him stay that way? Why bother with sticking Hermione in Ravenclaw or killing her or whatever? What does it add to the premise that simply hand-waving Harry to stay more driven as the series progresses does not?

Perhaps the biggest issue though is how does this affect the plot moving forward? Does making Harry a little more observant/competent/driven actually change that much? How would CoS PoA etc. change? My biggest issue with the idea, aside from the fact that I don't think it works, is that it doesn't seem meaningful enough to actually change the way the books unfold, and that more than anything would make it a boring and uninteresting thing to read. It would just be any other ff.net competent!Harry during the school years, just better written presumably.

Perhaps as a one or two-shot character piece it might work, but as a full-fledged story I think it falls flat.

 

Well I think this shows it's atleast discussion worthy.

My ideas was built around the Harry/Ron friendship. What happens when they become ostracized from there peers. I figured the best point for that to come about without a ridiculous amount of angst is for it to start younger.

The order of events in the books would change a bit to help move the plot along. I think PS/PoA/HBP/GoF/CoS/OtP/DH would make for an interesting divergance and add switch up the traditional competentHarry trope.

The death of Hermione is more to create a reason for the two to better themselves.
Also for the lack of knowledge I had a few ideas. First was a riff on a SeerHarry. That was scrapped pretty quickly as I couldn't make it believable. I then proceeded to a time travel PoV. The idea behind that is the time travel happens in parts and bits. The memories of the past Harry come in dreams and are triggered by similar situations. The original memories would be from canon Harry. The idea is in it's formative stages but I have tentatively began planning out some of the plot.

 

Why in the ruddy hell would Harry be ostracized? It was Ron, read: RON, who caused Hermione to run off, he's the only one to blame for what would have happened (and Hermione for being so sensitive, but frankly it's understandable). And frankly, that would be a better reason for Harry to drop Ron, not for them to be any closer.

And have you read any of my previous posts? I have been trying to say that Hermione dying in PS is NOT a logical impetus or catalyst for Harry and/or Ron to improve themselves. Hermione is a nobody at this point, meaningful to the reader because we are already attached to her, but meaningless to the characters because she is a bossy little know-it-all that no one likes. No one. Not even Harry; the only reason he went after her was because of his saving people thing.

If Sirius and Dumbledore's deaths didn't get harry to shape up, why in the hell would we believe Hermione dying in PS would?

As for the rest of the stuff, you need to sort out a proper divergence first, because Hermione dying is not a good one for what you want to do. Honestly, I would say you should just sort Hermione into Ravenclaw and write her out of the story, because from the writer's perspective, it doesn't matter whether Hermione dies or is simply written into Ravenclaw, they can have the same effect that you are going for. From the reader's perspective, it does matter because those are two very different things.

There's a leap of logic that the reader has to get over if you kill off Hermione to make Ron/Harry work harder. There is no such leap if you sort her into Ravenclaw and make Ron/Harry stumble through Hogwarts without her assistance with research/schoolwork (although I still don't subscribe to the "crutch" concept).

Gah, I'm done with this. I've repeated the same damn concept four times now, if you really want to kill Hermione go for it, but I think it is a bad divergence.

 

I think it's a bad divergence if you want to keep the Harry/Ron friendship, but it's got possibilities if you're willing to let that go. Hermione dies; Harry blames Ron somewhat, or is at least angry enough with him to seek out different friends. Either way, the friendship isn't as strong, and Harry gets a new social circle which could potentially open up whole new realms of magical possibilities.

 

First year is not likely to be teaching anything important. So you can cause the change at the end, or have small changes through the year.

If I wanted to write a Harry who was more interested in learning, and wanted Hermione gone, I'd make most of the changes in the final term.

-Send Hermione to Ravenclaw.
-She doesn't come along for the duel, but Neville still does.
-None of them get through the trapped door. You can have them caught or not, depending on what you want to do. If you want a H/R/N strong friendship, have them caught and lose hundred of points. Everyone else hates them, so they stick together. Otherwise, just have Filch go the other way or something.
-The year is a normal year. No searching for Flamel, because they didn't encounter the trap door, or think of anything.
-When Quirrel goes for the stone, he first kidnaps Harry. He does this for two reasons. One, as a hostage/meat shield/tester for the traps. Two - instant revenge on getting his body back.
-Ron realises Harry has been kidnapped, and tells McGonagall. She calls Dumbledore back, and they burst in on Harry burning Quirrelmort to death with his bare hands.
-Ron and Harry (and Neville, if you include him) realise they need to become better, especially if Voldemort isn't dead. Harry's guilt over killing someone, mixed with fear of himself dying, could be a possible point.

You can probably sum this up in one or two scenes - Harry and Quirrel in front of the mirror, and then a conversation in the Hospital wing.
Then you can jump ahead to wherever you need.

 

Since there is talk about using Harry burning Voldemort with his hands as a power up. Why not just have Harry wake up early and realize that he did it on purpose. Then Dumbledore enters and clears away any guilt. From there on you could have a couple of scenes where Harry does something inappropriate and someone just swoops in to clear it all up. Harry likes the feeling of being in control, but realizes that there might not always be someone to help him out. So he studies to retain his new found power over the world.

 

I seem to remember the majority of the school ostracizing Harry multiple times for much lesser things then an accidental death he was present for... but you guys are correct there is many holes in the idea. I'lll rework it and comeback with a better base.

Thanks