^ That. Madara felt pushed into a corner and 60 years later the rest of the clan would feel the same way. And as Sarutobi said Itachi was Hokage minded. I.e he thought about the village ahead of his clan. 2b honest i have a lot more sympathy for the Uchiha than I've ever had before this.

 

I think the Madara targeting Hashirama thing is because of the alternate interpretation of the stone. God was split into yin and yang and if they work together you can create anything was told to Hashirama. Perhaps the other interpretation was that if one combines yin and yang they become god and can create anything. Thus him going after Hashirama's yang is a necessary step towards whatever his dream is.

 

No...it's basic duality. You know, symbolism. For all light there is dark, for all good there is bad. Two parts to everything. Blah, blah,blah.

 

Realistically, the Uchiha were always a time bomb waiting to happen. Someone you love dies? Pit of infinite despair forever (Obito and Sasuke say hi) amd what's to say that Hashirama and Tobirama didn't know this? Oh wait, they did.

Segregating the Uchiha clan from the rest of Konoha is important because if they reach some threshold of loved ones dying (which is some number between 1 and a whole clan full) they go apeshit and just want to murder everything. What other solution can you present to solve that singular, overriding issue?

By the way, Kurama was forced to attack Konoha because of an Uchiha. This was the logical conclusion reached by people given that there are only 2 clans who can control the tailed beasts, Senju (all dead) and Uchiha. As far as we know, there were also no missing-nin Uchiha at the time, so if my village was attacked by something known to be capable of being controlled by the Uchiha, I would be suspicious of the Uchiha. Occam's razer applies here folks, and is in fact correct.

TL: DR I hate Uchiha apologists. Anyone planning treason deserves death, regardless of how sympathetic (or plain pathetic) you are. You know who was disliked by the majority of Konoha? Naruto. Guess who is a Big Damn Hero now?

 

Naruto shouldn't be a big damn hero though, it doesn't make sense. Village treats me like shit, I'm gonna be Hokage! Tbh putting family before the Village makes sense to me.

 

I think the fanon is getting to your head. Naruto's bad experiences with the villagers, if anything, were like not having any friends in school. You desk isolated, alone, etc. But unless you're insane* you don't come in and shoot up the whole school because of it. You live with it, or you try to make friends. Naruto chose the latter.

*See the Uchiha clan

 

It's not like he wanted it for their sake, he wanted it because they'd have to stop to treating him like shit. Being Hokage would mean that he wouldn't be hated, mocked or ignored and would instead be loved and respected.

 

I think its more likely that Naruto and the Uchiha clan faced the same kind of social isolation from ignorant villagers than the idea that Naruto got off with only shunning and and the clan full of ninja police were actively discriminated against.

 

Tbh, you are just spouting some stupid stuff here. Sasuke didn't just go crazy because someone he loved died. He went crazy because EVERYONE he loved died at the hands of the person he loved most, after which he was mindraped to witness his brother killing his family over and over again, then later on getting the cursed seal, which, as we know, messes up someone as well and then getting mindraped by his brother again. Living with Oro afterwards probably didn't help, although, to be fair, it was only after he activated the MS that he went really crazy, which I believe does cause insanity to some degree since everyone who has ever had that went insane and retarded immediately afterwards (unless they had EMS, seeing that Madara seemed very reasonable the early years of Konoha and Sasuke now with his discussion with the hokages).

So, not exactly making apologies here but everyone here can see that this was not just some Uchiha going crazy because he is an Uchiha. Most people, Uchiha or not, would have snapped and done some crazy shit at that point.

As to Obito, well, that's just lame and lazy writing on kishi's part. And who knows, maybe being rebuild with Zetsu cells in a creepy cave does make one mentally unstable?

So, yeah, not really a reason to distance the clan as a whole. I mean, the Uchiha served the village at least five decades without turning into berserker's when a loved one died. So, not really seeing the argument here. It literally happened to only Sasuke and Obito , and at the very least Sasuke's case was not simply going on a killing spree because someone he loved died.

No one else. Madara, Obito and Sasuke are the extreme cases, and they needed some pretty weird circumstances to make that happen, so not really reason to punish the entire clan. Especially when Sasuke and Madara are arguably by-products of the villages shitty way of dealing with them.

As to the Kyuubi attack, you did notice that it was an Uchiha who was cast out of his family decades ago, right? The clan itself didn't have anything to do with it and was, in fact, innocent. The village was wrong for blaming the Uchiha. Besides, they knew that Kushina was pregnant and that there was a chance of the kyuubi attack happening. For all they knew, it was just the pregnancy going wrong, they didn't know anything about outside interference or control.

But I agree on this, it was not entirely unreasonable to think that someone with a Sharingan had something to do with this, and seeing their anti-Uchiha way of thinking, that was probably the conclusion they immediately jumped to, blaming the Uchiha clan for it. They were still wrong though, dead wrong. If only Itachi had opened his stupid mouth and said something about someone with an MS not tied to the clan running around, someone whom he thought was Madara instead of keeping quiet and killing his family for dumb reasons but I guess the "let's mindrape my brother and tell him to have no friends and pursue only hatred until he is loyal to Konoha plan" was a good one too. Who could have forseen that that plan wouldn't work out?

Tl; DR I find it tedious when people just don't think these things through and are quick to blame one side. Maybe the Uchiha shouldn't have rebelled, because by doing that, they broke their vows and responsibilities to the village (and, you know, got killed) and endured it longer until someone got in power who would change that shit, like Naruto, but I can't exactly blame them for getting tired of waiting after so long. And loyalty is a two way street. The village itself had betrayed its responsibilities first by treating the Uchiha the way they did and personally, I feel that the Uchiha had shown immense restraint tolerating that bullshit for at least fifty years, probably longer.

As to Naruto, yeah, we get it, he is a saint. Totally realistic to want to protect and save everyone who shunned and ignored him.(no mobs or merchants overcharging him, or calling him a demon or whatnot, but still, a rather crappy life) Then again, Naruto was "only" ignored. Then again, we have all of this, chosen one, going to make peace, destroy the circle of hatred thing going on with him, so, not exactly a good example.

So, in conclusion, both sides had, more or less, valid reasons for some of their actions, both sides were played but I would still side more with the Uchiha clan on this one.

 

Uh, you can't just say that only three Uchiha have gone insane ever. We've only been shown like ten of them.

 

I do agree that "shoot the school up" isn't the logical outcome, but Naruto's case isn't exactly the norm either.

I think the normal and "sane" reaction would be to resent the village but appreciate the people there for you. A realistic Naruto would come to appreciate Iruka, the Hokage, and perhaps team 7, maybe Shikamaru, Kiba, Choji, Hinata, and Shino. He'd come to terms with the village hating him, and resent them for their shallow-mindedness, but find solace in the company of friends and show loyalty to them over the village.

That's not to say that valuing friends over the village as a whole is the same as what the Uchiha did though. I just think that Naruto's reaction isn't the norm, it's the exceptional. It's what makes him the hero. He's very much a messiah like figure in a way, he accepts the abuse of all these people and vows to protect them despite that. As a child, he did it for recognition. But he grew past that and decided to continue on that journey to protect people and came to terms with his dark side in that waterfall thing. He gave up his hatred and became something more and all that jazz.

 

I noticed you dodged the important issue, if the curse of the sad Uchiha is true, what other solution is there than social isolation or death? If I remember to ill edit this post in with a blow by blow rebuttal but...

Of the Uchiha we know by name (which is basically Madara, Sasuke's immediate family, and Obito) Fugaku (the guy planning treason with his singular major military asset being his 13 year old son) seems to be the most rational of the bunch. Coincidentally, we don't know of anyone he was close to dying.

In order of time-person killed-crazy shit.

Madara -his brother- completely obsessed with power, to the point where even his own family thought he was a warmonger and voted an outsider -who before this point was an enemy- to be leader over him.

Itachi -Shisui- killed his whole clan at the threat of violence against his brother, then repeatedly tortured him.

Sasuke -whole clan dies, brother is symbolically killed by becoming a traitor- revenge and power obsessed.

Obito -Rin- kills his own sensei (who he has a good relationship with before his death) and his wife and attempts to unleash Kurama against his own home.

You activate the MS by the same conditions as activating the curse of the sad Uchiha, so pointing out that all the crazy Uchiha are the ones with MS helps prove that the curse exis

Kurama was released by Obito, not Madara.

 

@Wildfeather: You have a fair point, which is yet another reason I do my best to ignore all the specifics of uchiha-lore after Shippuden.

 

Not really relevant to the discussion at hand....but.

http://i.imgur.com/kHSlhmE.jpg

 

Naruto maybe wasn't over the top abused like fanon, but everyone isolating you, spreading rumors, nasty looks, and having no friends except one old guy isn't exactly ideal. Normal people would leave and or hate the village. I will admit Sasuke overreacted though, killing the Elders may be justified but the rest of the Village wasn't really involved.

 

Naruto wasn't completely isolated though. I mean, yeah he didn't have people he could confide in, but he did hang around Shikamaru, Chouji, and Kiba during his school times.

I can't remember the exact chapter off the top of my head, but it was said they'd ditch school together regularly.

 

I think you're overstating the danger of the curse. It's not like the Uchiha were prone to snapping and going on murderous rampages under normal conditions thus punishing the clan for what happens once in a blue moon is ridiculous. Even when it did happen it's not like the entire clan will snap at once so it should be able to be dealt with easily enough. It's not like Madara level ninja are everywhere.

 

Good thing none of the Uchiha care about each other. Otherwise if one of them got killed because a close friend of theirs got killed, the whole clan would become unstable.

Can you point out non-insane Uchiha that we know by name? There are these generic "defecting Uchiha" that we know about from the Senju time, but every character we have actually seen on screen at some point devolves into "X has wronged me, death to X and it's little dog too!".

Except in the cases of Uchiha who don't activate their sharigan, i'm not sure how you think they aren't all pretty badass. Obito, who didn't activate his sharigan until just before he died, got promoted at age 11. And he was considered a disgrace. Realistically if you have 3-4 jounin and like 10-20 chunin (assuming you somehow avoid detection of the local S-rank ninja) you could destroy a village, since you get a bunch of people to do a combination fire/wind technique and walk away. And it's not like the Uchiha clan doesn't have the largest single concentration of powerful ninja to date.

Uchiha

1. Madara
2. Shisui
3. Itachi
4. Sasuke
5. Obito
6. Madara's brother (?)

Senju (directly)

1. Hashirama
2. Tobirama
3. Tsunade

Sarutobi

1. Hiruzen
2. Asuma (debatable)
3. Konohamaru (kid was making Kage Bunshin and rasengan at ridiculous ages)

Just to clarify that even if there is a lot more to the curse of the sad Uchiha than close friend+death=crazy Uchiha, people may have perceived it and acted on it as such.

 

If anything, I would think that the MS is the curse in that case, but regardless of that, that curse, if true and not simply superstition (are there other curses and magical things like that? Or blessings?), it could only have happened irregularly.

If every single Uchiha had become crazy as soon as a loved one died and wanted to kill everyone, they could have never formed an alliance with the Senju in the first place. Those two clans had been rivals for god knows how long. If that curse really was an actual thing and not some stupid made up stuff, (would think that the curse being the MS makes the most sense, to be honest), it was hardly something the whole clan needed to be punished for.

As for non insane Uchiha, would say neither Fugaku nor Mikoto were insane but to be fair, we hardly know the former and even less about the latter, so, that could be either way.

 

People (both in-universe and fans) seem to be applying the same logic to the Uchiha clan that my mother does to airplanes. You hear a couple of bad examples (plane crashes/crazy Uchiha) and apply the same template to all of the others (all planes will crash/all Uchiha will go crazy).

Yes, there have been four prominent crazy Mangekyou-wielding Uchiha traitors, but to think that means that all of the presumably hundreds of Uchiha over their sixty-plus year residence in Konoha will go bat-shit is extremely faulty logic.

And as for the impending Uchiha revolt? Chances are that not EVERY SINGLE Uchiha was 100% on-board with backstabbing their comrades in an coup-de-tat. Most likely it was something along the lines of, for example, the Nazi party and the Holocaust: A group of leaders (Uchiha elders) stirring up the populace (Rest of clan) by de-humanizing an enemy (Konoha hates us! We'll never get anywhere) in order to justify actions that go against a general moral code. Probably most of the Uchiha were fine with the way things were, and had friends among the other clans. All it would take is a few power-hungry people with the right words in the right place and the right time, and we can get the aforementioned coup attempt. (And if the exact leaders couldn't be singled out, or if the Konoha elders were afraid of turning the leaders into martyrs, that would justify the purge of the clan)

And most of the traitors had at least partially a good Freudian excuse for their evil switch to flip. A lot of times the logic behind them gets stretched waaaaay too far, but it's there.
-Sasuke thinks he's getting stronger throughout his Academy days, then gets that notion slammed out of his head repeatedly in his genin days, getting beat up by Kakashi, Zabuza, Haku, Orochimaru, Lee, Gaara, and Itachi (again). Meanwhile, the guy who was the lowest scoring shinobi gets stronger and stronger and defeats opponents that had beaten him earlier. Makes sense why he'd join the only person to offer him significant power to date. Later in Part 2 his logic gets progressively more flimsy though.
-Itachi's reason was covered in-universe.
-Obito's REALLY stretches logic. I CAN get that after being killed and saved, the one thing he would be looking forward to would be re-uniting with his crush and friend/rival. And why, when he sees his rival kill his crush from a first-person perspective while using the Sharingan he gave him, burning that image into his head forever, he proceeds to slaughter the crap out of everyone there. If he had sworn revenge against KAKASHI, I would have gotten that too. But really? Kill Konoha and trap the world in a never-ending genjutsu just to reunite yourself with the crush who hadn't given you the time of day? And you were what? Twelve? Fifteen? Not exactly the age to develop a 'true love soul bond' or crap like that.
-I'm not even going to touch Madara. I don't get where he's coming from yet.

So at least 2, 2.5 of the traitors' motivations were logical at least at first.