After the Red Wedding, it's hard to create an awesome season finale. Also, isn't this season just half of Storm of Swords? Not too easy finding a suitably memorable scene to end the season with from mid-book. They could have used the Red Wedding itself, but I imagine that they knew fans would be beyond furious without some resolution of who lived/died during the Wedding and its immediate consequences.

Otherwise, definitely agree about the Dany scenes. Felt horribly contrived and forced. I was cringing while watching them. I am curious about Shae though. The way she's depicted, is she actually

Spoiler

Tywin's spy

or will they leave that out to appease TV viewers?

 

There seems to be no doubt that they'll leave it out. A shame.

 

Uh - sure. This is definitely the show that goes the furthest to appease TV viewers.

 

There's a difference between an absolutely vital plot point like the Red Wedding and Shae. It's serves more as a means of developing Tyrion's character and

Spoiler

depicting Tywin's hypocrisy. With the way they've portrayed Tywin, I'm not sure if they'll go for that angle. For TV Tywin, it seems very OOC. They might just establish that she's his spy, but leave out the part where he's also screwing her.

 

They've completely changed the dynamic of the relationship already, I wouldn't be surprised if they left it out completely. At this point it would be stretching credibility to believe that it'll go the way it did in the books.

Hell, Tyrion is getting a much happier, lighter road in general. His relationships are not mildly sad to outright pathetic and creepy and his marriage to Sansa is going much better . Fuck, Sansa was even laughing with him this episode. Ugh.

The writers are quite willing to whitewash character's actions to make things less grey/happier, pretty sure that they've done it for everyone -except maybe Robb.

 

I'm abit disappointed there was no lady Stoneheart would have been a far better ending than Dany's scene. Also Brienne is in King's Landing with Sansa so there will be a divergence from the books in her plot line aswell so it will be interesting to see where her and Jaime's plot line goes aswell as the timing of his arrival indicates a divergence from his book plot line aswell.

 

I think that the writers of the show are already setting up a different ending for their story than what GRRM is planning for his. They know his plans for the next two books and are aware that it's very unlikely that he will publish both of them before the show is finished with the first five. And since they already said that they are planning seven seasons it's not that far away.

In that case they will either need to wait for the new books to be published and maybe do rumored prequel series or create their own ending. Something different from the original, but still true to the world of ASoIaF. For that they need to make some small changes in earlier events and dynamics between characters that will slowly become bigger and bigger.

 

The Lady Stoneheart thing I would hope was just punted to next season.Seems unlikely because it would affect certain casting choices so...yeah. But it's possible that George told them what it would lead to and the pay-off wasn't worth it. *shrugs* Such is life. I'm surprised though, that seemed like a prime plotline.

On said casting choices (spoilers for Feast for Crows):

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If they did it now they'd not need to re-hire Lord Beric's actor. Also, the shift from "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" to "the Lannisters send their regards" would make sense, since the specific phrase is not needed anymore.

I disagree about the small changes to dynamics to further plot being the reason for the shift in Shae and Tyrion's relationship though. Don't read the spoiler if you haven't read the books. Just don't.

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Shae's death is a concrete dead end. There was never any real need to change her character except to appeal to a TV audience that they feel would not like Shae being a lying whore (one half of which she is paid for) and Tyrion being pathetic and self-deluded and on top of that a murderer.

This has happened before. Cersei didn't kill Robert's bastards and Cat never told Jon that he should be dead iirc. Those are just the two I have offhead. It has little to do with plot. It's simply something they do. I don't like it,I don't think that it gives people enough credit and avoids good divisive moments but then, I'm not the guy trying to keep people invested in the brutal and depressing world that is Westeros.

EDIT: Also, how can there be seven seasons? Aren't they half a book behind?

 

They are compressing 2.5 books into the next two seasons. The next season is liable to contain stuff from all three books.

This season has ended on a pretty bad note. Robb's mutilated body was absolutely grotesque, and I felt actual horror at it for a moment. But the episode when (almost) downhill from there.

Shae's little scene should have been done last episode, or axed. No place in a finale.

How did Arya and the Hound happened across the guy who (purportedly) sew Robb and the direwolf together? assuming that they had been riding away from the Twins and not going in circles, how could those guys have possibly overtaken them and set camp? Why were they there, anyway? Wouldn't they be celebrating?

Yes, yes, Cersei loves her little monster. Move on, please.

To be honest, there were a couple of well done scenes, though: Sansa, Tywin, etc. Jon getting shot was awesome - a good catalyst for his upcoming changes.

The last scene though. Ugg. Did they need to end on a triumphant note so as to provide a counterpoint to episode 9? Eitherway, so contrived it fell silly. Almost as contrived as "I have to go Home!"

"You know nothing, Jon Snow. Your home was between by legs, but you fucked that up, dint ya?"

edit: They also fucked stannis up royally. The witch's about turn at the end was hilariously bad.

 

Perhaps they were hunting Northerners? Or they were on guard duty? In the middle of nowhere and they weren't particularly interested in stopping the Hound.


Real answer: Arya needed to kill someone so the power of D&D compelled them.

I cringed when he asked what the value of Gendry's life was weighed against the realm. I think he pointed out before that the Walkers were coming but it just came off as ambitious as if he was more concerned with what HE wanted.

As for Davos, he was a little shit wasn't he? He withheld a crucial piece of information because he knew it would make Stannis' choice clear and then, when he took the decision out of the king's hands he ties to use it to save his life. I wasn't particularly sorry when Stannis was fine with axing him. Not because he already made his decision and was a stubborn bastard but because his actions were potentially even worse than Lord Florent's.

Strange that Mel made the decision though. And strange that Mel feels the need to keep Davos, an uneducated pirate around to try to make alliances and win people over.

I've heard it suggested before that the show writers simply don't like Stannis *shrugs* well, he definitely doesn't come off well.

As for Dany: Mighty Whitey Blonde Jesus, being raised on the shoulders of the unwashed brown people? Hahaha no.

 

Really? I find Davos to be probably the most likeable and sympathetic in the books/show.

 

Of course you find him to be. He's the one not advocating for the burning of an innocent child and that's what we call a sympathetic position.

Still, sorry, a monarchy is rule by king, not rule-by-king-when-it's-morally-convenient/reconcilable-for-me. Stannis is the king, it is his decision. He should be given all the facts, then allowed to make it. It is not the place of Davos Fucking Seaworth of all people to change that.

I mean, he's seen what Melisandre can do. His only argument is that her concern about the Others is faked or untrue. So when he gets a letter hinting that they're not and that there really is a possible existential threat...oh,he'll just withhold this little nugget of information from the man in charge of the realm till it suits him.Why? Because he might have to actually come to terms with the fact that Melisandre has a point. Well, Clearly Davos is more morally and mentally equipped to make a decision of this magnitude than Stannis :|

It was completely out of line., Stannis is well within is rights to chop his head off.

 

I didn't see it that way. I saw it as Gendry being burned alive took more precedence, at that moment, and Stannis had him seized to be executed before he could get around to delivering the information. His argument against Melisandre had less to do with the 'Others' not being real and more to do with the blood magic that turned Stannis into a kinslayer.

That's my view, anyway. But I like Davos. I may be biased.

 

This is straight out of the books. In Stannis's mind, the 7 Kingdoms are in the control of usurpers who are tearing the country apart in their lust for power. He believes with all his hear that he is the only person who can save Westeros, and if it takes killing one boy to do that, he'll do it. I don't think the show always does the best job of showing it, but Stannis is an incredibly cold and calculating man. This behavior is 100% in character for him, as horrible as it is.

This was done better in the books, I think. The letter in the books only mentions the Wildling attack ("We fear Lord Mormont slain with all his strength"), and not the coming of the Others. Davos grasps the significance to Melisandre, but it was an old letter (dismissed as insignificant by Lord Florent) and he didn't feel like Stannis should bother with defending the North from Wildlings. Since he thinks Melisandre is full of shit (or at least, horribly evil), he has no desire to help her at all, so he keeps quiet about it. He then pulls it out as his trump card to keep his head because he knows the Melisandre will see the significance. The rest of the conversation isn't seen, since we next see Stannis at the Wall and Davos at Whiteharbor, but my assumption is that Davos is spared because he's a Lord and he's now expendable, so he can be sent to talk to the Northern lords, who are as likely to kill him as listen to him.

 

Right, so his response to Stannis' arguments is not only to not tell him something that'll reinforce his conviction, he then turns around and helps Gendry escape when he now knows that there is possible truth to what Melisandre says? Truth which he then conveniently remembers(with a letter as well!) when it comes time to mount his defense (which he seems pretty composed when giving)? Yeah, totally deliberate action on his part.

As for Stannis being a kinslayer...that's his decision to make, not Davos's.He's the king.He doesn't need The Onion Knight to safeguard his honor. On top of that, that's an almost trivial concern compared to what Melisandre is threatening. When the Long Night comes and the dead walk, what use are clean hands? Let's face, it Davos liked Gendry. There's no shame in it. It's quite admirable, but he was grasping to justify something he knew he couldn't convince Stannis of because it depended on tools Stannis didn't care to have at that moment.

I'm sorry,I don't see how it's acceptable to believe that the Others are possibly real and that Melisandre has powers that seem to come from a god that has told her that they'll try to destroy humanity and react by...removing Stannis' one good chance at reuniting the realm and beating them because of a concern like that. So Stannis is now not a kinslayer. How is he supposed to beat them? His honor made out of dragonglass?

Oh, his utilitarian argument is not new. Stannis in the book also cared about the Great Other that Melisandre mentioned, that's why he wants to kill Gendry.But still, none of that comes across. It just seems as if he wants a kingdom, for it's own sake. I'm probably reading too much into it.

That is,of course, an alternate explanation for his actions (he could just be bullshitting people and himself with that Great Other stuff), just seemed strange.

 

Stannis isn't exactly a smooth communicator, so I actually thought that was intentional. If you don't believe, he comes off like just another selfish, ambitious claimant seeking power for its own sake.

The problem is that Davos is literally the only sane man in a situation where the insane people may actually be right.

May.

Also, no, Stannis is not the king. He thinks he is. Crucial difference, there. Renly put it best, really; who in their right mind wants to follow Stannis Baratheon of all people? The man's about as well suited to being a King as you or I. Well, Davos will. That alone makes Davos incredibly valuable to Stannis even if he gets squeamish at the idea of literal human sacrifice.

Also, also: Just because there may be some truth in Melisandre's warnings about the Others does not mean that burning people like Gendry alive will stop it. You're leaping straight from "Melisandre might not be completely full of it" to "OHMAGAWD SHE'S RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING WE MUST DO EVERYTHING SHE SAYS". Not a jump the characters themselves can make.

Because they don't know. You do, since you're a reader/watcher.

Could Stannis have gotten head-choppy with a clean conscience? Oh, absolutely; he believes Melisandre. And thus, Davos impeded the whole saving-the-world thing. Does that mean it's okay? That's a slightly more complicated question than you're making it out to be.

 

Stannis needs Davos, he said himself. Davos is the only one who follows Stannis Baratheons, and old Stannis know it. He is the thing that stop Stannis from transforming to domething inhuman, totally dettached from the rest of humanity. Mel helps the Prince who was promised, the others follow her or are interested/afraid.

Also Davos is the only sane man, and before all that shit he problably was Stannis only friend. No true human being can simply kill a friend that was doing what you told him to do, unless he wants to prive himself as a huge monster or hypocrite.

About witholding information, really? Can you blame a guy that want to survive? And I bet half the reason he wants to live is to help Stannis.

About the last episode, Danny finale seemed forced to me too. But the Jesus comparison was retarded. It's already proven that the miserables in this series will follow almost anyone that cares or pretend to care about them, white or black.

Tyrion life isn't a lot easier, it is less traumatic, but not easier. His scene with Sansa was just to give a little ray of sun to be crushed with the news. Also, his interactions with Cersei in the series are much better, the scene with those two damaged goods are incredible. Tyrion is Tyrion and if you read the books, you know how much of an Broken Bird Cersei is.

Shae desenvolvement was necessary, just like Robb. And I think that is for the best, just like the Red Wedding was more traumatic in the series, Tyrion you-know-what will be much more emotional, and not just the "well, now he is fucked".

Just one thing about Mel's magic. We can't fucking know how it works, or what would be the price. Okay she burns the royal kid, A terrible plague happens and kill half of Westeros, leaving only Stannis as possible king. That would be lovely woudn't it? If it works, of course.

 

I feel like Arya Stark is in the wrong genre, and she's bought into it so completely that she warps the universe around her to make it fit. In a story full of blunders and bad luck and lacking in any kind of character shields, she's jumped from impossible escape to impossible escape in her quest to wander around gaining XP.

Edit more stuff

I'm mostly convinced that R'hllor is about as evil as the Others beyond the Wall. I'm thinking this is more or less a Good Omens type situation.

 

He is Davos's king. Davos, taking Stannis as his liege, cannot then turn around and preempt his decision because he feels like it without opening himself to righteous punishment. Regardless I'm not sure what your point is? As someone claiming to be the legitimate ruler he WILL act as such whenever he can, just like everyone else.

As for his belief making him valuable...maybe I guess. Good possible use as an expendable diplomat.

Nice summary.Alternatively you could work your way into it. The logic is pretty simple: Melisandre has shown certain abilities based on her use of the essence of kings (according to her). She's done things that are seemingly impossible and made things come true that are just as improbable. (In fact, I think the timeline was fucked here because they set up a test and immediately abandon it). She has a certain belief that ties into her religion which presumably gives her her powers and now there is independent -possible- confirmation of her claims. What happened the last time Davos counselled Stannis to ignore her clear warnings? Oh, that's right, his entire cause pretty much evaporated.

The thing is though, she's shown enough power that you don't really want to take the risk that she is wrong. If she is,everyoneis fucked. If she is indeed lying, you'll know quite fast no? The possibility alone carries a ridiculous weight.

And really, let's not forget that the argument stands even absent concerns about existential threats.

But Davos doesn't act as if she could be right because he does not want to believe that she could be. If he could do that he'd ask them to wait until all three kings are dead or they get more information from the Wall (this is a stretch though).

Not really, it's a pretty standard moral dilemma as far as I can see. You can buy into whatever side you want (though I'd be interested to see someone defend the other extreme.)

What is not debatable though is that Davos has taken matters into his own hands in a way that he is not entitled to do. The Hand acts for the King, while technically he can get away with certain things he is to execute his will. Davos broke the spirit of the agreement as well as Stannis's implicit-hell, explicit- commands. He was guilty as all fuck.

What? Davos didn't withhold information to survive, he did the exact opposite, he put his life in clear danger and then revealed information to save it. He withheld information to save Gendry.

Except everything we've seen of it shows it working in Stannis's favor. Sure, you can't always pin down magic, but going off previous experiences and motives one thing seems more likely than the other.

 

I see your informed argument on Davos and raise you

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