An archytpe is a type of story that generally follows the same basic principles, but is not to be confused with a cliche. High Fantasy is a type of archtype, with LotR being the genre defining series, as it as popular now (even more so) than it was when it was first printed.

Fanfiction has the same sort of thing. This thread is discuss archtypes that lack a quintessential story, a story that you must read if you like X&Y, etc. A lot of times I read a fic, and find it lacking, and set off on a quest to write a fic that fills those wholes, I'm sure other people do the same.

An example would be a Marriage Contract fic. I'm of a mind that there exists no quintessential fic as such. Sure, there are some that are passable and entertaining to read (though 99% of them are bad). There are some that may be a 5/5 when compared to other fics of it's type, but it has to be a 5/5 when compared to all stories, and I'm of an opinion that none exist. Do keep in mind that being the first, archtype defining doesn't make it the quintessential fic. Jeconais may have been the first (debatable) to do Harry/Slytherin Girl, but that doesn't make it THE fic to read in regards to such (though I guess by definition it is the archtype).

What I'm getting at I guess, is that a lot of times, the original fic that spawned the archtype is not as good as fics who built upon the precursors success and attempted to do better. This thread is to identify which archtypes are lacking, since it's 2013 and many of the early stories are just bad by todays standards.

There's some rules I think that I am setting for myself when I consider archtypes that are lacking. Firstly, it has to take part during Hogwarts, or a large part does. Post-Hogwarts is a whole other nut to crack. Secondly, it can't be a crossover. That adds too much. And generally, I prefer epic length stories. Your rules may be different, and of course, what's to follow is subject to personal opinion.

Indy!Harry: These archtype in of itself I feel is lacking, though it is a very broad one with many paths to take. Some would say that The Summer of Change (hp/nt) is the story to read if you haven't read it before, but honestly, it's an awful story by today's standards, though it may have been the bees-knees back in the day. I don't know of a story that truly follows the formula that I would call amazing, one that I can go back to and read multiple times and 5 years later still call a great story. The Denarian Trilogy doesn't count since it's a crossover, and a story like Renegade Cause and a Bungle in the Jungle are highly debated

Timetravelling!Harry. There are a few good ones, thanks to the DLP contest held awhile back. Some may consider Wastelands of Time to be the pinnacle of epic length stories, but it takes place post-hogwarts, so doesn't fit my rules. There are some very good ones, but most just turn into perfect fix-its, or gushing over meeting Lily, and stuff that turn boring after the first few paragraphs. To be honest, I don't care how the timetravel happens so much, as long as Harry actually does some. Make it so he's the one that actually has to guide young!Harry's hand without him knowing it, manipulating him to learn of the sorcerer's stone, and make it appear as young!harry was the one who thought of it himself. Make him the one who manipulates crouch!moody who in turn manipulates young!harry, in order to make sure the events happens as we know as to keep his future information relevant. I don't care, just make it interesting.

Harry/Slytherin Girl pairing. Yes, this is an archtype. And there's subcategories as well. obviously. I had a thing for Harry/Daphne back in the day, but in retrospect, most of them are just bad. There's a few that people would call defining stories, like Intoxication, but I find a lot of the stories lacking. I want a full year story, that doesn't use the phrase Ice Queen, or Light wizard. And without incessant bashing. How hard is it to write a story that naturally evolves and feels fluid and realistic? The answer is very hard, apparently, since it hasn't been done, and probably never will. Authors have a tendency to writes things that are just completely unnecessary to a story, like using magical cores, or just dumb, like Pansy using a glamour to hide her true face.

Harry/Fleur and Harry/Tonks pairing. It's easy enough to write the pairing after Harry graduates, but that doesn't count. There are no defining stories for either pairing, that actually work as a story and not just a fluffy romance. The Lie I Lived doesn't count, since that is James Potter/Fleur in every way except name. I don't think it's that unrealistic of a pairing to happen during Hogwarts without the use of shitty plot devices like soul bonding and veelamates, but authors just aren't willing to put the time to make it work on a realistic schedule, since they'd rather just shoehorn them together within a few thousand words. And making them the same age is a cop out as well, half of what makes them an interesting pairing is the age disparities, and that is half the battle of making it realistic as well. It's a work of fiction, so it doesn't have to be realistic in our world (15 year old and 24 year old would never go over well), just within the HP world. We at DLP like taboo (within limites), and I do feel like it can be done properly.

Pureblood culture stories. I find these to perhaps be the most interesting, though they are so few. Stories with an actual history behind him. It's one thing for muggleborns to celebrate christmas, but why would wizards? I love stories that go in depth, create actual tension between the two sides of the war other than just voldemort vs dumbeldore and death eaters vs order, and taking one side or the other. Blur the lines between fact and fiction, of good and evil, on one side trying to retain their history and culture, while another seeks to keep with the times and lose what truly defines what it means to be a wizard. Make it so theres more to Death Eaters than just killing muggleborns, give them a true reason to be fighting, instead of them just being essentially terrorists. On the Wings of a Phoenix is a great attempt, and I still enjoy the story, but there are some niggling parts, and it's not truly finished. Out in the Night was another one, one of my all time favorites stories, but it was taken down, which is a shame. It could have been the archtype defining story. What I would give for another five stories like that one.

Harry/Luna. For the love all god, why are there no stories that actually cover the whole year, without being ridiculous. It should be an awesome pairing, but writing a good Luna seems to beyond most author's abilities. There can be so much more to her than just make-believe monsters and being bullied on. And it's possible to write it without it being 100% humor, while still retaining Luna's personality.

Dark!Harry. The archtype on which this very site was founded. Personally, I'm not fond of Dark!Harry where he just goes around killing random people just because. Make it so there's a purpose, that's all I ask. Give Dark Magic a definition if you wish, but don't cop out by going blahblah cruciatus was originally invented to recusiate someone, or killing curse invented to humanely slaughter cows, that's boring and pointless. Blur the line, but don't have hermione blurting out, "but (X and Y spell I made up for the fic) is Dark magic!" Magic is magic, the only definitions are what people give to it, but don't make it a cut and dry matter, but don't bring attention to that fact either. Make it feel natural. Don't have it so using dark magic automatically makes you a death eater, and definitely don't have the characters use that fact as the story driven tension device, that's just a bad idea. And making it so it's defined as like external vs internal magic is a bad idea as well. Have being a dark wizard more than just casting some spells that may or may not being legal in the eyes of the ministry (regardless of intention), have it be a set of ideals one believes in, a code of conduct to follow. Using dark magic just for the sake of doing dark magic doesn't appeal to me, there's no reason to restrict yourself in what you use if it's the best spell for the job, magic is magic. And I don't like stories where dark magic is an actual addictive substance. That doesn't make much sense. It works better as a physiological thing, where powerful spells give you a sense of power over the weak, which can be intoxicating, but it's not the magic itself. I guess that's just a bit of a rant, that's just I wish there was in the perfect story, but honestly, the one thing that a good dark!harry story has to follow is that using dark magic doesn't make you evil, and being a bad guy doesn't mean you use dark magic, that's what really makes the whole archtype interesting, so long as that is not the actual plot. evil!harry is a whole different bag of worms.

Slytherin (or other house)!Harry. There are too few stories. I hate stories where all Gryffindors automatically hate Slytherins, just because, and make that one of the defining plot devices. It's awful, and a bit boring. Also, never ever use a phrase like "How Slytherin of you" There can be so much more to a story than just specific traits like that. That's quite unrealistic, but people like reading about that all the same. They're in actuality not all that different that Gryffindors, but that does not mean they are the same, and they shouldn't be written as such. Just as there are many different types of people within gryffindor, the same is true of the other houses. Not all Ravenclaws are bookworks, not all slytherins are purebloods, or death eaters, or politicians in the making, or vicious cruel people. Most people would be a different kind of person at 15 then they were when they were 11. Cunning and ambitions are traits everyone has, it's how you go about them that define who you are, and being a Slytherin is never an excuse to define your actions, such as throwing a spell while their back is turned, that's not cunning, sly, ambitious, or whatever generic term you can think of. In truth, the terms that are generally applied to all the houses never actually mean anything, so don't make it the defining point in your story. Cowards can be in any house, everyone has some amount of ambition, bravery has the knack for showing up in the oddest of circumstances, and there's more to being smart than just reading books. As for stories, there's a few that are a lot better than others. On the Way to Greatness would be one that comes to a lot of people's mind, but honestly, the first half of the fic is pretty unreadable. The problem is starting from first year is a very ambitious plan if you want the story to actually be interesting, and starting ahead without infodumping is a very hard thing for people to do. And then there's trying to dodge the tropes that I mentioned above while still making the story read naturally, which is the hard part.

That's enough for now, I guess. This thread isn't to discuss a particular story, or to say that XYZ is the quintessential story. Rather, it's to discuss archtypes that you feel are missing fics that are properly done. Like, you've read fifty indy!harry fics, but there is no fic out there that combines all the best parts of them (learning new magic, getting away from the dursleys, forging your own destiny) without the stupid cliches (inheritances, wandless magic, weasley/dumbledore bashing). But you feel like if someone were to do that, the story would be the best ever, then that's what I'm trying to discuss. Or you've been searching for years for a Harry/Daphne fic that covers X where Y happens without Z, yet has never been written, but you feel would be awesome and would be a defining story. Perhaps in discovering a whole on the fandom, you have an idea of what to write, or perhaps this is all just a ploy for myself to figure out what I want to write.

 

@mentor - http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5201703/1/By-the-Divining-Light (by the same author fits and it is one of the best stories).

On topic: I really want to see story about collapse of Statue of Secrecy that makes some sense.

All that I found fail horribly in one of following ways: omnipotent Muggles (no sign of "We shall arrange for the President to forget to call."), all non-magicals immediately starting witch-hunts (even after going with "everybody is evil" - why no government thought that magical super-soldiers may be a good idea?), passing over entire thing in a single paragraph or some mind-boggling stupidity (trench warfare with: one side able to teleport, use invisibility spells; second with planes and ICBMs).

In general, it seems that everybody who attempted this went with either "peace, everybody is so happy and tolerant" or "global war with N. Korea and USA cooperating against magicals" - like there is no other, more interesting possibility.

 

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3209463/1/The-Price-of-Knowledge is an interesting take on "magic inherently dark" in way other than addiction.

 

We're desperately lacking the quintessential Harry x Twin!sister story.

 

Try just a lack of Harry having a twin. Every story that I've read to date that has involved Harry having a twin has been filled with cliche tropes and nonsense. I tried writing one myself, but it didn't turn out too good, apparently Harry having a twin is something difficult to get right.

 

I think there are two meanings of archetype that are getting conflated here:

1. A story which defines the conventions of the sub-genre.

2. A really good high quality story within the genre, which abides by those conventions.

Note that quality pays no part in the former, and there are many of those. In Indy!Harry, for example, you have Summer of Change, Scorpion Sorcerer, etc.

The second group may be lacking, but then what counts as high quality is mostly subjective. And really, whether a story is good or not has no relation to how faithfully it represents a particular genre or sub-genre. Maybe some genres are just intrinsically bad.

 

Would say that there is no intrinsically bad genre, although, there are genres that need more effort to obtain a certain level of quality. Still, with a good enough author, every concept can become a good story.

To me, an archetype story was always the story that launched the spawning of dozens of stories with similar/same ideas. Best recent example, although not HP one, would be the Self Insert genre in Naruto after the success of Dreaming of Sunshine. A lot of stories like that popped up in the meantime, with the "being reincarnated into world X" concept.

HP had "Forever Alive" for the Marauder era type stories, I think. And even that, only sort off. Other than that, concur with the OP. There are really no clear stories that carved out a genre like that.

 

I'll take the "zombie apocalypse constantly being pulled down by politics scenes" archtype as my own for Incorruptible, and call it a day.

 

I agree with both Harry/Fleur or Tonks, no fic pass the passable point, except two fics where Harry has been changed so much already in the beggining that he doesn't feel like canon! Harry. I really would like to see a fic where Harry is paired with an older, adult woman. How that would change him. Even one of the Quidditch girls would be good. But nooo, we don't have not even a good one in Harry/Fleur or Tonks, and Harry/Quidditch girls, ha, except one by Big D on a Diet (where Harry is paired with half of Hogwarts) there is only shit after shit.

One Slytherin! Harry the one that had the potential to become THE One was What Would Slytherin Harry Do? also by Big Did, but alas, too short to get a real feel on the story.

A Harry/Multi/Harem/Whatever, I'm still waiting to see one that isn't: Written by a retarded horny "thing that doesn't belong to same species as me", with such a retarded plot that makes my head hurt or if it has at least a good amount of chance of being decent, be abandoned after 3 chapters.

To me Switch, is the archtype of a Hufflepuff! Harry, but I still have to see an archtype of a Ravenclaw! Harry, where being on that house influences him as much as being in Gryffindor did in canon. But in a subtle way.

Harry/Slytherin Girl is hard, I've read good ones featuring Pansy, but they were short and fluff only. Jeconais stories featuring Harry/Daphne is closer, but Harry and Daphne become too perfect, and worst, it's hard to recognize the Harry we see since the beginning. So, nothing on that either.

One that is still missing, and I'm amazed by that, is a good Harry and Sirius mentorship, by 13 to 14 he doesn't really need a father, he needs a mentor. I never even saw a real attempt at one.

 

There are a lot of types of arches missing here. Parabolic, Lancet, Ogee, Reverse Ogee...

Shame on you, Taure, for failing to correct someone. I'm disappointed in you. The title of this thread is painful to read in so many ways.

 

Your rules are overly restrictive with respect to time travel stories. Nearly all are "post-Hogwarts" in the sense that a post-Hogwarts Harry returns to fix stuff, causing other bad stuff to happen, etc. By your definition, I'd say Backward with Purpose by Deadwoodpecker is the archetypical time-travel story. It's as readable today as it was back then. It hasn't spawned a thousand knock-off tales, though.

By the more conventional definition of archetype, one would probably point to Nightmares of Futures Past by S'TarKan; setting aside its glacial update pace, its unreadability today is primarily because of the countless copies and knock-offs, making its many original (for the time) elements seem tired. Similarly with Jeconais's Harry/Daphne Perfect Situations, the story that spawned hundreds of Ice Queen copies. Full Pensieve's Harry Potter and the Years of Rebellion is arguably the Indy!Harry archetype, hugely influential for its time, though difficult to read now. And it needs to be said that Kinsfire wrote some of the archetypical Harry/Many stories. They are horrible to read today, but he was out there promulgating his fetish writing before most anyone.

Fanfiction does present a difficulty of inclusiveness, and I think this is what you were getting at with your OP. Unlike the professional writing world, where there's a commercial barrier to the exposure of bad work, the quality of writing that went into the fanfiction archetypes is inconsistent. Most such stories were penned back when the fandom was small and a single writer like a Jeconais, Cygnus Crux, or Melindaleo with some fresh ideas could have a profound influence. Summer of Change is an example of this--yeah, it's a pile of poorly edited, undisciplined wish fulfillment overusing power-ups of the "Lord Potter-Black" and "I didn't know it couldn't be done so I did it" sort, framed by an eye-roll-worthy, juvenile obsession with sex, but one cannot deny the influence that story had on the fandom.

 

Could you link that one?

 

There is nothing intrinsically bad about any story idea. You can take a bunch of shitty ideas and make a great story with them. But it takes a stronger and stronger author to do it, the stupider the ideas become.

A quintessential "twin" story would need to avoid ALL of these elements, I think, to be reasonably "writable" for your average author:

-No, Harry's twin is not showered with attention and special love from his/her parents.
-No, Harry's twin does not have "all the friends" while Harry has "none"
-No, Harry does not live with the Dursleys while his twin does not

You can have those elements. But, they make writing the story more difficult.

Let me try to get to the heart of how such a story might work. I think this is the way I would write it:

Lily sacrifices herself to save Harry and his "twin" (who we'll call Sam, since it's kind of a unisex name). You could write a story where Lily lives, but, that doesn't make sense to me. The point of giving Harry a twin is to make it the "X who lived", if Lily lives, then what? How did she live? It feels hamfisted. "Lily had twins this time so when she loved her children a lot the killing curse saved them and also didn't kill her but killed Voldemort." It's just too messy to picture. Keep it simple, she's dead.

James could be optionally alive, but the heart of this story is not necessarily that Harry's twin gets "all the attention" which seems to be the focus of most of these stories. The focus is on Harry's destiny, his place in the world, when he isn't featured in any prophecy or when he isn't bound to fight Voldemort. The focus is on society placing weight on the shoulders of Sam, society eventually resting something on the shoulders on Harry, be it some kind of expectation or responsibility. Harry probably fails in this role, as does Sam - neither can do what society (or "Dumbledore") desire of them initially, but perhaps they rise to the challenge in an unexpected way.

So in this story, Sam gets the lightning bolt scar. The story could be about them living with their father. In this scenario, they have a normal life. James is a loving father with issues since his wife is dead. Pettigrew and Sirius see justice, but darkness looms on the horizon. A prophecy is read and Dumbledore arrives to the conclusion that Sam will play an instrumental role in destroying Voldemort. Should Harry be included in this prophecy? I guess it's up to the writer, but I'd keep them out of it. Why? It depends on the story's theme, but if I were to write it, the theme would be about "fuck destiny". In this scenario, I'd definitely have it so Harry, who is never mentioned by any prophecy, plays a much larger role than Sam.

But I'm getting ahead of myself. Sam, because of the prophecy, does get special treatment. But it's more subtle. Dumbledore manipulates things, as always. She gets more tutoring, more protection, more something. Harry probably notices it, James probably notices it. He soothes Harry by assuring him he has no favorite child. There can be tension here, because Harry is a child and insecure about himself. The early part of this story should be about Harry overcoming his insecurity. You can do it probably through some childhood drama - maybe a muderous death eater escapes and child Harry must do something to protect his own life, Sam's life, or do something. That something is the catalyst to Harry's character for the rest of the story.

Most twin stories have Harry "breaking off" or "going rogue". I really think there's an interesting appeal here. The heart of the story now becomes something akin to, "Harry finds his place in the world, but it's doing things society doesn't approve of, or it requires he do things which compromise his education." Harry leaves his family and friends to do something he believes is right, or it comes about after being slighted by people he considered his friends or allies. There's an intrinsic kind of melodrama/angst bait to this thread, but I do like stories where a protagonist is willing to step away from "the good guys" to do something they aren't willing or know to do. In the first scenario, it could come about because Dumbledore doesn't want Harry mucking around with the prophecy, reducing Sam's ability to kill Voldemort. Sam does many of the things Harry does in the books, but to avoid "predictability" I'd suggest not following canon too closely here. Sam probably slays the Basilisk, but by another means, Sam probably confronts Voldemort/his followers in some form early on. Eventually, there is a split between the two siblings. Be it from trust or a general animosity/jealousy towards one another. But it's not a cataclysmic event, the problem is that in most twin stories, the breaking up scene generally results in Harry fighting "Dumbledore's allies" or something and runs out of the castle to do some dark edgy stuff and listen to punk music, if you know what I mean. A rift between Harry and Sam simply makes them aloof in the story, and this aloofness prevents either from being successful. Sam performs more poorly in school and against Voldemort's schemes and Harry becomes unpopular at school and perhaps pushed into the Slytherin camp in some capacity.

Already with this scenario, I'm having trouble thinking this story through. What is the major conflict, what's the ideal resolution? The ideal resolution is that Harry and Sam come to understand and possibly respect each other. Society recognizes it's to blame for pushing them each down paths neither want. Harry was pushed to commit darker deeds and Sam was pushed to fight Voldemort for "the greater good". An ideal resolution is everyone understands what they have done is wrong regarding all of this, and it is made right. Or at least, that's my idea of how it would work. At some point, Sam would realize they need Harry to defeat Voldemort, and at some point, Harry would realize he can't live without Sam. Some kind of yin/yang moment. And then it ends.

I'm not gonna even consider the alternative scenario as deeply, but I'd imagine both twins would grow up with the Dursleys, which would make coping with their bullying a lot easier. It could make for a more interesting story. Sam and Harry don't hate each other, unlike most twin fics, they're deeply entrenched in each other for surviving all those years. But, they also have influenced each other, Harry or Sam's character could be warped a little. That warping allows a bitter breakup in Hogwarts, leading to that same change in the story, with Harry drifting away from being a "good little Hogwarts student" to something else.

Suffice to say, whether anyone agrees what I've plotted out here be any good or not... the problem is not the archetype. You can make a rich, complex story that uses some "lame" restrictions or ideas. The problem is that most fanfiction authors 1) never finish what they start out to write 2) never plot, plan, or think deeply about their narrative choices. If someone wants to do a serious twin story, they should begin by discussing it with a friend, I think. Find all the holes in the story and plug em' up good. The idea itself isn't that bad.

 

I disagree, rarely some things just make absolutely no sense.

Draco/Hermione romance is not doable without heavy OOC* to the point of replacing at least one character by an OC.

*It may be via AU, unexplained OOC, 20 years later or some absurdly contrived event.

 

Some stories can be good despite stupid plot-points. A HP/HIMYM mesh-up might be a good read, but most probably it will be on accident.

 

Link to Switch, as requested Harry here is just like I imagine he would be in Hufflepuff. I disliked most of the other characters new characterization, but I really liked the main characters so no real damage done. The story is very funny, heartwarming and amazingly, until today, pretty original, taking in account that she wrote everything before the 7th book and appears to be 13 y/o, I'm shocked at how much I liked it. If it was longer, the possibilities.

Also, I hate when Perspicacity posts in the same thread I post. He makes me feel dumb or like a noob, or both. And that's because he barely acknowledges my existence.

About bad ideas. There are, but great story can come of them. Jim Butcher said so, and he did it with Codex Alera. So it takes lot of talent. But no ideia is truly destined to be a shitty story. Also, on this regard, Outlander, a pretty good movie with good performances, with one of the most idiotic plots I've ever seen.

 

I disagree. Rowling suggests Draco can "change", or at least, she wants to believe he can be redeemed. I guess that's possible. If Draco is redeemable as a person, Hermione could like him. It'd require a slow development though, where Draco and Hermione are forced to constantly interact. It would take a lot of character development, but it could be done believably and work. I don't think any of us would read it though, since we tend to be Harry-oriented.

 

Don't be sad, fellow traveler. I toasted you this evening with a most excellent vodka martini.