Sandaime couldn't have possibly meditated to learn and master sage jutsu.

Because Kishi hadn't pulled sage mode out his ass before he killed off Sarutobi.

 

I think the connection forged by signing a contract as well as the means used to achieve Sage Mode probably both contribute to the sage's eventual appearance. But really, Kishi hasn't explained any of this, so it's just a matter of personal opinion.

As for why I think Kishi was clear that Kabuto is a perfect sage, well, it's because Kabuto is a scientist-type character - an academic, a scholar. He did a lot of research about senjutsu, and when he claims something, it's likely he knows what he's talking about. He claimed that senjutsu can only be learned in three places, from Toads, Snakes, and Slugs. He claimed to be a perfect sage, and what is that anyway? It's someone who can enter Sage Mode and use senjutsu without assistance from a summon. Jiraiya was not a perfect sage, because he needed help to gather natural energy. Kabuto transformed on his own, thus he is a perfect sage. Basically, Kishi used Kabuto as a mouthpiece to do some world-building, and I'm not going to just ignore that. The information he supplied is great, since we didn't know much before that. To just disregard the information Kabuto (Kishimoto) gave us doesn't seem logical to me.

Edit: Hiruzen can't use Sage Mode because he's a monkey summoner, and monkeys don't/can't teach senjutsu.

 

No, it's someone who can perfectly balance natural energy with their physical and spiritual energy. Jiraiya got it close enough to achieve Sage Mode but not without turning into a frog a little. Naruto managed a perfect Sage Mode as proven by his markings and lack of any toad transformation. The summons are needed because of the risk involved in using Sage Mode in combat, not because Jiraiya can't use senjutsu without them. Even Naruto was supposed to use them but couldn't because of the Kyuubi.

 

Toad Senjutsu is based on perfect balance between Yin/Yang/Natural energy, but unfortunately we don't know how Snake Sages mold their chakra. It could be something different. After all, when Natural energy overpowers Juugo's chakra he doesn't turns into a stone statue, but transforms into a monster.

 

Well, there are some signs that imply that Jiraiya cannot use SM on his own. Fukasakus comment about Jiraiya needing to learn to use it on his own, Naruto being able to use it on his own, Jiraiya only entering SM after summoning the toads, instead of doing the smart thing and entering SM alone to give himself a temporary boost so he can summon the two toads to make that permanent.

There were moments in that fight where Jiraiya could have faked Nagato with shadow clone(s) and entered SM alone, the way we have seen virtually every other sage (Naruto, Kabuto and Hashirama) do. Heck, he had more than enough time while standing on top of that toad.

It seems possible to me that an imperfect sage like Jiraiya needs artificial assistance, whether from toad oil (there is one flashback picture with Jiraiya not having the toads on his shoulder, but its on toad mountain), or from Fukasaku and Shima. It might be because Kishi invented SM late, but we have never ever seen Jiraiya use SM alone, which is atleast somewhat telling.

The perfect sages like Naruto and Hashirama however obviously don't need any help to use SM. Sure, it would be handy to have a continual supply of Natural Energy mid-battle, but its not in any way required. These days Naruto does not really even need or use shadow clones. He enters SM very quickly.

Ofcourse even if so, Jiraiya would still qualify as a sage I think, since he could still balance NE. We did see with Preta Path what happens if a total non-sage absorbs NE. If Jiraiya was not a sage, he would have turned to stone when Fukasaku and Shima started channeling NE to him.

But I think we have had this discussion before.

 

Ah, I was planning to edit that in but you beat me to it. I looked at the first time Sage Mode, one of the elder toads tells Jiraiya that he needs to learn to use Sage Mode on his own which is weird. That makes it sound like he never bothered to learn how to draw in natural energy without the toad oil and instead had the toads do it for him. Which seems unrealistically half-assed of him and is strange when Fukaksaku was comparing Naruto to him when he'd achieved Sage Mode without the oil, but there ya go.

It's just a theory but I like to think that Juugo and his clan are examples of what happens if you learn senjutsu without being contracted with an animal clan i.e. human sages as opposed to toad/snake/slug sages. And their bloodlust is the consequence of their bodies being adapted so they don't transform into stone statues, so they can't die from 'overdosing' on natural energy but end up going crazy instead.

 

Probably, he just wasn't able to learn. Senjutsu, after all, is incredibly difficult and dangerous art. And according to Kabuto you need special body to fully master it.

 

This is true. Lets remember that Orochimaru apparently was too weak physically to learn SM, and Orochimaru was pretty damn strong. If so, learning SM at all, even if in a half-assed way that required toad oil or toad-assistance may have been an impressive achievement.

I have speculated earlier that SM may be a hax-cheat from the Younger Brothers lineage, just as sharingan and MS are the hax-cheats of the Older Brother. The two top sages, Hashirama and Naruto, are both descended from YB, and Kabuto bragged about genetically engineering himself to be more Uzumaki (and implied that gave him the ability to control SM). Add to this the fact the whole SAGE of the six paths thing, and the recent revelation that Juubi is vulnerable to Natural Energy (further implying that the Sage was an SM user) and it seems quite plausible to me atleast, that SM just comes easier to those who are descended from the Sage via the Younger Brother.

So again, since Jiraiya was not of the YB-lineage, his achievement of learning any level of SM without this "cheat" was remarkable.

It does somewhat weaken Narutos achievement in mastering SM, but at the same time it does explain it. I mean Naruto basically compeletely mastered SM in a week or two, while Jiraiya did not manage that in several decades. Thats pretty crazy. But if it was just naturally easier to Naruto due to his heritage, then it does make some sense how Naruto achieved it.

 

That makes sense. But the question about different types of SM is still unclear. For example, is it possible to Naruto to use Kabuto's Senpō: Muki Tensei? Or why Naruto became so much physically stronger when Kabuto didn't.

 

I still think the Elder Brother's lineage got the better end of the bargain.

Pretty much all Uchiha get the Sharingan, which means they can all get the Mangekyou. Some of those could then go on to get the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan if they had willing family members. So theoretically there could be a whole lot of EMS users alive at any one time, if they were all ruthless enough to kill their friends and take their kin's eyes. And even just the fully matured, three-tomoe Sharingan is a powerful doujutsu in its own right.

Only one Senju in a blue moon is lucky enough to get Mokuton. And although the body of the Younger Brother might enable a Senju or Uzumaki to master senjutsu more easily, there's generally only one or two holders of a Toad/Slug/Snake contract at one time, which would drastically limit the number of sages in any particular generation. And as far as I can tell, no Senju or Uzumaki was really aware that they had such a large advantage in learning senjutsu. Kabuto only found out through his researches and experiments, and probably from observing Naruto's progress and making deductions based on that.

Uzumaki (and possibly Senju) make good jinchuuriki, but again, only a small, limited number of those can be created per generation, and until a jinchuuriki forms a strong partnership with their bijuu, they are very vulnerable to Sharingan users.

The Elder Son's lineage seems to have the advantage, especially in numbers, although 1v1 at high levels, the Younger Son's descendants probably have the advantage (as per Hashirama > Madara).

 

Ah, but the thing is, Madara told himself that descendants of Younger Son is more suited to weild the Rinnegan and that's why he gave it to Nagato. Probably, if Senju or Uzumaki implant sharingan they can awaken Rinnegan the same way Madara awakened it after he implanted Hashirama's cells.

 

Didn't stop the Senju from making the Uchiha their bitches or from the Uzumaki being so damn badass they were wiped out of fear, so I guess it evens out.

Where are you getting this from? You've said it before and I haven't seen anything that backed it up. Kabuto only talks about Juugo's powers.

Maybe, maybe not. Could be that Naruto could have learn it if Kabuto taught it to him, or it could be that something about it that require a snake contract. And do we know for sure that Kabuto didn't have as much strength as Naruto?

 

You know, I've stated before that Naruto's character and Hashirama's character have been made intentionally similar. And its becoming more obvious the more the story goes forward.

I'm right now half dreading, half anticipating that Naruto's gonna pull Mokuton out of his ass.

There are plenty of signs of this happening.

Really not sure if that would be a good thing.

 

Nah, Kishi is going to give Sasuke even more power so he could end this war and become Hokage.
And well, without Doton/Suiton affinity even Naruto wouldn't be able to pull Mokuton.

 

Yeah you are right, I rechecked those chapters. I was remembering wrong. Kabuto did implant Uzumaki dna into himself, but he says it was for life force/regeneration rather than SM. I guess I got the idea that Karin helped with SM from the whole strong life force thing given how Kabuto talks about Orochimarus body being too weak, but you are indeed correct that it is never stated. Ohwell.

 

Wait.

Huh.

 

Knowingly or not, Karin's DNA could still be the key to Kabuto's success at mastering senjutsu. I doubt Kishi will ever go into so much detail about the Uzumaki clan's bloodline, though.

 

@Republic21: Heh. And I tried so hard to phrase it in the most flattering way I could.

How about "Didn't stop the Uzumaki being so damn badass they made the shinobi world collectively piss themselves out of fear"? We'll ignore the genocide.

 

Uzumaki were worshipping the Shinigami and tried to use his powers. So it is not surprising that shinobi villages decided to annihilate them. Hell, we even don't know who exactly destroyed the clan, it could be Konoha.

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At least I believe the were worshipping the Shinigami, otherwise it doesn't make sense to have a special Shrine.

 

I;m not sure you got my point, exactly. I'm as much of an Uzumaki fan as the next guy (although I distinctly dislike 2/4ths of the known Uzumakis), but I question the notion of them being so damn baddass, if they just rolled over and got wiped out by Earth before Konoha could so much as twitch.

It is canon that Uzumaki were seal experts, true. But I think fanon has taken a few notches way too far.