I'm not saying thats what you said, I was just asking a question. You replaced in for someone who didn't post all that much, it's natural that I want your opinion.

 

????

a) why so defensive?
b) "so" implies a conclusion you drew

 

I'm not being defensive? So isn't drawing a conclusion, it was just me verifying your opinion. Which you seem unhappy to give for w.e reason.

 

Not sure I like how easily and quietly you dismiss Font, Chocolate Pi. I was somewhat suspicious about her given her actions on the previous Day, and how closely they mirrored Rubicons on the Day before. I still am, I'm just not sure she'd push Bill's innocence so hard if she was his scummate. In a world where both Bill and Dermon are scum, however, she's my top pick for fourth.

The problem with your plan outlined in #703 is the lack of follow up. You define how it's a win win at the start of the next Day, but in the world in which Zeit is scum (and so BD town), we are set up for a lylo without any way of knowing it (and so lose). In the world in which Zeit dies, the entire scenario reeks of WINE, and once again we have nothing to go forward on.

15 roles, 15 players. How would there not be a gravedigger?

Pushing a lynch that can't actually happen is pretty much textbook distancing, tbh. And if you were represented by your own actions you'd be dead

Also, scum doesn't have an assassin.

 

I have a town read on font, but I would consider lynching her. I think she is a reasonable candidate for Rubi/Bill/Dermon/xyz, but not my first choice.

I admit, I have hesitated going through all of her posts intensely because, well, it's a lot of content. I liked her reaction to Zeit even though I completely disagreed with it.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that either side is an auto-win, just favorable. All outcomes produce public information.

Maybe I'm not following you. Are you advocating lynching Zeit?

I'm assuming he just meant that the Gravedigger is dead.

Is this a claim? Sorry, I just want to be clear.

 

Your first choice is Lucky, just to clarify?

No, not advocating that. At this point I'd actually agree with you, Dermon seems like a good choice. I just wanted to point out that we're still not in a great position, having lost both Priest and (functionally) Gravedigger.

Yes, it is.

 

Ok, concerning the case that has been built on me:


I don't see how you could think I would be scum with Luckylee. In fact, I have been attempting to get him lynched for most of the game by now. If anything, I'm probably guilty of confirmation bias, and not readily looking elsewhere.
[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]

[/FONT]If you're going to call me scum based on “tone,” please tell us what tone you see and how that would make me scum.

At the time that was posted, I wasn't under a lot of pressure. I had gone back and forth with Kalas about the lack of analysis in his questionwall, and then Rubicon chimed in, and I wasn't quite sure why. In hindsight, it looks like deliberate buddying, but that wasn't apparent to me at the time.

[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]

[/FONT]

I don't see how my case reads badly for me. I wanted Luckylee lynched, so I outlined why he was scummy. Please elaborate.


[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]

[/FONT]I don't know why Kalas took this line of reasoning. I wasn't lurking in the thread, I was downright absent for most of Day 2. I didn't even get around to reading the exchanges between him and Rubicon until I returned near the end of the day.

I don't understand how you can say that this is the linchpin of the case against me when you also said this:

[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]

[/FONT]
It seems like you're employing a double standard for me vs. Zeit here. I don't know if that's the result of a confirmation bias, or if you're scummates with him.

Why do you say that it was the “exact opposite of how I reacted?” I tried to keep an open mind and consider each possibility in its entirety.

With the interactions between Rubicon and Kalas, I was genuinely convinced that both of them could be scum together. I felt secure in lynching Kalas, then going forward the next day and lynching Rubicon too. When Kalas initially claimed priest, I disbelieved him. Then Rubicon happened and took a cannon to my reads. I reverted back to the one thing which I was halfway sure of – Luckylee's scummy behaviors – and built what I thought was a credible case on him.

 

If you want my raw notes resulting from my read-throughs, I have:
Luckylee @ 40% Witch
bleh @ 30% Witch
font @ 25% Witch

...as my 3 highest reads after Dermon.

Okay, cool. At first I was disappointed because I was hoping font or Lucky would claim town Assassin and we could consider forcing some claims and sending them on a suicide mission today--a little revenge for Rubi, killing a few birds with one stone.

I don't want to do that with you, but that does mean I feel more comfortable with end-games that involve us claiming for whatever reason.

We should keep in mind though, with Bill Door's role unknown and the Gravedigger probably in Witch hands, safely claiming fake roles will be trivial for them. We have nothing to gain by claiming for no reason.

On the subject of claims, if dermon is town DOB or BOD, he should say so.

 

I am neither the Dirty old Bastard nor the Benevolent old Dame. If you think a full claim would be good, I will provide one.

 

I think you mean blab?

Also, as you yourself said, false claims are likely trivially easy, so that wouldn't work anyway. What do you mean by revenge for Rubicon?

 

Which is irrelevant if scum actually have the GD, Dermon.

 

Not quite. It still gives more information, which can be used to look over past behavior and make sense of motivations.

 

My argument is you have been holding him at arm's reach most of the game.

This was referring to you calling Sesc out on some alleged early game hypocrisy--him dismissing the value of the early game, but voting anyway. It feels contrived, like someone looking for a reason they can safely justify.

But I think it's interesting because you weren't under a lot of pressure; if you had been, it would read differently.

First, I'm unconvinced that you thought this vote (on Luckylee Day 3) would amount to anything.

Second, your attack on Luckylee is a half defense on Bill Door, who prevailing winds don't feel good about.

Third, it's well into Day 3 and you still phrase your charge as "If Rubicon is scum,"--after the previous discussion, this reads as leading town. A townie who had made your mistake (reacting to the Kalaspocolypse) would not proceed forward as you did. It's not keeping an open mind, it's trying to bend the reaction you were getting.

You weren't accepting the fact, you were negotiating with it. ("Okay fine, maybe Rubicon does have to be scum, but in that case XYZ.") Town doesn't do that.

Right, I don't think Kalas's Day 2 case against you has much merit in and of itself. I only included it as a fitting confirmed-town contrast to the preceding confirmed-scum Rubicon defense.

Huh? How are the two events even similar?

You reacted to a major game event in an uninvested, noncommittal way no town would. Zeit made a really stupid role reveal that was really dangerous and could have been pretty bad for town, but did it in a way that makes zero sense as scum as has been discussed in detail.

You are comparing a reaction to an action?

But town doesn't do that! Scum team thinks town does that, and likes to appear that way (thoughtfully considering the game), but town doesn't actually care about the superset of all mechanical possibilities!

If a Loose Cannon activates on a claimed Priest, every single town player knows for a fact that the Loose Cannon was scum and the Priest-claim was at least town. They don't have any need of entertaining other possibilities.

Your self-description of how you reacted to this event keeps changing, and is inconsistent with your early Day 3 posts. This is because you are having to imagine a reaction. ("Yeah man, I was totally blown away!")

Were you now.

What do you think of Luckylee right now?

Hell, what do you think of everyone?

 

Or a faked role with fake motivations Dermon. I really wouldn't bother revealing at this point, we can't know for sure that Assassin isn't scum. The more roles known, the worse imo. And I find it weird that you so readily accepted Moridin's claim, Chocolate.

 

I think the only thing we might be interested in asking is if you are Survivalist or Judge. We should discuss this as a group. (BOD and DOB we definitely needed warning about though.)

I mean, it's fitting, right? He blows up are Priest, we have an Assassin blow them up. It's ironic.

But again, we aren't doing that with you, not today for sure. And you're right, we're not going to pinch any scum with claims.

What freedom this DOES give us, is to consider having Dermon claim like we're discussing. Witch Assassin, or a more likely Witch Assassin, would make that more dangerous.

Right, it's not totally useless. Hm, let me think.

---------- Post automerged at 23:23 ---------- Previous post was at 23:23 ----------

Why is that?

 

Because we have no priest, and no way of confirming that he's town? For all we know he could be scum, all of this role revealing stuff seems weird to me.

 

I already had Moridin as my strongest town read, and his claim strengthened it. Why claim Assassin as a Witch, particularly when things are already going so well for Witch Moridin anyway? Why call attention to himself? Moreover, his slightly timid reveal certainly felt townie; scum tends to make more of a show of these things--like Zeit's reveal, except with a point. >_>

As a reminder, if we are to listen to Aekiel's Archangel signal (because why else use it Night 2?), all three non-Rubicon Witches were on Aekiel's wagon. This clears me and Moridin.

 

I'm going to take some time off posting (14 to 20 hours, including the time I intend to sleep) to do some self reflection.

I might have unreasonable expectations of Zeit's play (similar to the way I may have had unreasonable expectations of Kai's play in Tinyhunt) stemming from the way I first learned about online mafia by reading earlier games and admiring the posts he made. I think as I've gotten better at mafia, my idea of Zeit's play has increased as well. So, I'm going to have to look through those old games to see if I'm being unfair to him here because of those expections.

If anyone has any important questions for me in the meantime, go ahead and ask, but I really don't want to be drawn into any quote wars while I'm thinking about this.

 

I completely forgot about this tbh. But fair enough, the role/assassin stuff was getting me weirded out.

 

Of course, I don't consider this evidence (the Aekiel signal) resolute, just compelling.

Heh, if I wasn't a replacement, my pointing it out would be suspect--I could have coached Zeit to plan it!