According to meddling feminists, yes, almost certainly.

 

Before I say anything, I've only read Fellowship and The Hobbit, but I thought of it as equivalent to Frodo's visions of the eye. The difference is in the observer, in that Gandalf is a being who theoretically would or should be able to really see Sauron.

As for why Sauron launched such a viciously powerful attack, seemingly more so than the prologue you mentioned, maybe he was feeling vulnerable? I mean, it didn't really look in that prologue like he felt he was in danger, and it was after all something of a lucky shot from someone he might have dismissed. In that scene, though, he knows that Gandalf is trying to shut the whole thing down before it's even off the ground, so he brings his A-game because this time he's fully expecting a strong assault from someone with considerable powers, and he has no choice but to acknowledge that he's in kind of weird position and needs to make sure nothing happens, so he leaves nothing whatsoever to chance.

What surprised me was the idea of it being such a direct confrontation, not because I wasn't expecting to see Sauron, but because Gandalf generally describes himself as being under greater constraints than would allow for that kind of aggression and open conflict. I had the same problem with the way he handled the Trolls in An Unexpected Journey. Rather, what I got from the Hobbit was that he more or less made his way in and out by stealth, only staying long enough to get word from Thorin's dad and then getting the fuck out of there before any such conflict could occur.

I agree, and I'd say it's because against the Balrog he had some awareness that it was going to be his last trial as Gandalf the Grey, so he went all out. And actually, having just recently finished Fellowship, I definitely remember them suggesting that what Gandalf faced may have been something more than just your average Balrog. Any light you could shed on that?

 

Regarding Gandalf's constrains, the particular order they follow is that they can't directly use their powers to try to overthrow Sauron, but rather must unite the peoples of Middle Earth to do so themselves. So if Gandalf is facing a powerful, evil being that he doesn't realise is Sauron -- he thought it was the Witch-King until the eye was revealed -- then he is within his mission to use his powers (though still limited by the form he inhabits).

Regarding the Balrog: do you recall any particular sentence? If you're referring to "a Balrog of Morgoth" then it's nothing special. All the Balrogs were Morgoth's servants, and they're all pretty badass, being the same order of being as Sauron and Gandalf, though perhaps weaker (Morgoth's corruptions often are lesser than their original forms e.g. elves and orcs). That said, just as all Maiar vary in might, so do the Balrogs. I don't recall Durin's Bane being said to be super special as Balrogs go, but then I haven't read Fellowship in a while.

 

I can try and find the reference soon, but I don't have the text with me atm.

 

I wouldn't really care if the cast was all male, since that would be a closer interpretation of the book, but I can see why producers or whoever would want to throw in some femininity to grab a wider audience.

 

So it was a Balrog of Morgoth thing, but Legolas then goes on to say "the worst of all elf-banes save the one who sits on the Dark Throne."

So is he saying that particular Balrog was the worst of them, or that Balrogs as an order of beings are just below Sauron in terms of fucking shit up?

 

Pretty sure he'd be referring to Balrog's in general rather than that specific one. The only Balrog whose name we ever know is Gothmog, who was their captain so it appears that the others were seemingly nameless.

The reason Balrog's in general would be so feared though is that they are actually Maiar themselves - same as Gandalf, Saruman and Sauron himself.

Additionally, the elves would have strong feelings towards Balrogs because they slew Feanor (one of the greatest elf lords) and led the attack on the elf city Gondolin

 

Tolkien was a devout Catholic, and although he admittedly didn't like employing allegory, he wrote in letters that his deities mirror the Catholic sentiment: Eru being an all powerful creator, the Ainur being the equivalent of angels.

There are references in the Silmarillion to certain Valar and Maiar being 'greater' than others. Some Tolkien scholars theorize that these are attempts to mirror the catholic angelic hierarchy (angels, archangels, seraphim, cherubim... all that jazz), and that Tolkien intended the Istari to be in a choir equal to that of the Balrogs but lesser than that of Sauron.

TL;DR - Even in their natural Maiar forms, Tolkien probably meant for Sauron as Mairon to be waaaaaaaaay stronger than Gandalf as Olorin. I am of the opinion that his bamfness was adequately portrayed.

 

Eru = God

14 Valar = Arch Angels, Domain over certain aspects of Arda, never seen directly in LOTR although there are hints at them manipulating events (Ulmo sending Faramir and Boromir the dreams to go to Rivendell, and Manwe breaking up Saurons cloud over Gondor). Morgoth, Saurons old boss and the big bad (Devil equivalent) is of this order.

Many many Maia = Angels, same type as the Valar but a lesser order and lesser power, but with in them there are both very great and very weak. Sauron is one of the very strongest of this order, and one of the smartest (or was originally). Gandalf and the Wizards are of the same order, but their powers and by in large constrained by their encarnate bodies. Balrogs are corupted Maia, with in them there would be greater or lesser, but they would all be of roughly comparable power.

 

The concept of power in the LotR universe is a bit more flexible than that, I think. We have numerous examples of beings going against the natural order of might. Consider:

- Glorfindel, an elf, slaying a balrog.
- Fingolfin, an elf, wounding Morgoth, the greatest of the Valar in might, seven times and permanently crippling him.
- Beren, a man, being able to cross the girdle of Melian, which only beings of greater might than Melian can do. Melian is a Maia and a pretty bamf one at that. Beren is just a man.
- Tulkas, a Valar of lesser might than Melkor, beating him back.

From these examples I think a few things are of note:

1. Spiritual might does not always translate into combat success. On occasions, beings of great power can be bested by those of much lower status, usually through physical combat.

2. Physical combat has a very strange status. Melkor had the power to raise mountains and smash oceans, but engages in physical struggles with Tulkas and Fingolfin. In a great many cases beings of great spiritual power choose to fight each other physically. Now we could just say that they're stupid, but I'd prefer to say that physical combat seems to be a kind of symbol of more spiritual conflict. But that goes against point number one, somewhat, as if physical reflects spiritual then physical combat results should reflect spiritual might.

3. All conflict is contextual. The being of Melian is greater in power than the being of Beren by far. But the events surrounding Beren at the time he crossed her girdle -- his fate -- had a kind of great import which overcame Melian's power. Similarly, on a normal day Fingolfin couldn't have touched Morgoth. It was only the power of his fury which enabled him to do so.

In summary: conflict works on storybook logic.

 

Balrogs have spent much of their spiritual and mystical power to forge the bodies and weapons of the Balrogs, unlike pure uncorrupt maia that can shape shift and have overt spiritual power, Balrogs seem to be more tanks. Amazingly powerful physical manifiestations with limited power over fire and shadow, much like the wizards though they are locked in to their bodies with only small ability to use their native powers, such as the Balrog just being able to beat Gandalf locking spell.

Thus a high elf, sacrificing himself (a noble act in Tolkien) is not to far fetched. They are physical and can be destroyed. I don't think an Elf could ever throw down an uncorrupt Maia. Unless it was the greatest of the Elfs vs the weakest of the Maia.

Morgoth has spent almost all of his power by this point, he was trapped in one form, burnt from the Simarils, and holding his army together. And Fingolfin is pimp.

It was Berens fate. Mellian herself said one day a man would get through it. He didnt fight it or break it, it was just somewhat immune to it.

Tulkas' one thing, almost exclusivly, was kicking arse. Melkor had many aspects.


But yeah, I agree that power is not cut and dry in Tolkien, but the orders do by in large account for who can fight who.

Galadrial, in the top 5 elves of all time, is the only person in middle earth, maybe even more so than the Wizards, who can take on a weakened Sauron in a spiritual confrontation.

 

I personally think Gandalf just enjoys being captured. For one of the most powerful beings in this universe, it happens way too often to be a coincidence.
The real shocking moment is that he actually used visually-impressive magic at all.

 

So I saw the film yesterday, (I was the only one in the room/screen - It was great.) How did Smaug know that Thorin was know as Oakenshield? The first thing my friends asked me was that question.

 

Since Thorin got his nickname after Smaug's claiming of the Lonely Mountain, we can only assume that Smaug was actually not so ignorant of important happenings outside of his mountain. It is not that out of the realm of possibility that he maybe communicated with orcs, or something.

 

I was just going to say he picked up on it after studying Thorin's fingernails and the breadcrumbs stuck to his beard, but yours makes more sense.
#sherlock

 

Or he interrogated anyone stupid enough to enter his lair before eating them. You know, like he did with Bilbo (minus the eating).

 

That's actually less likely. There's no other way inside the mountain without the key, right?

 

Could have mined their way in.

Also, ever since reading the Hobbit I've been under the impression that there was a front entrance that was either not sealed or just sealed with a regular door of some kinds. I thought the reason they used the secret entrance was because the front door was too well defended (i.e. Smaug slept near there) to get through undetected.

Seems a bit silly now that I think about it, but I guess that's what I get for reading it as a teenager then never picking it up again.

 

Yeah, that really wouldn't make sense, since the first thing they did upon sneaking in anyway was go directly towards the beast's lair and snoop around for a giant crystal. If that was the plan all along, might as well just go through the main entrance, so I just assumed the main entrance was molten lava and the bedrock was steel-like and impossible to dig through.

Admittedly, Tolkien didn't always think things through, but that's actually where Jackson's strength can come from if he uses it instead of calling eagles.

 

I had to refute this.

Galadriel was one of the most powerful of the Noldor, yes. But she couldn't possibly overtake Sauron in a physical or spiritual confrontation, even at his worst condition at the end of the Third Age.

She thought she could, as she told Frodo and Sam in "The Mirror of Galadriel", but that's a thought constructed by the desire and corruption the One Ring generates in lesser beings.

The only one who could have taken Sauron down, only at the end of the Third Age, was Gandalf the White (said by Tolkien in "Letters"). And even he, once he was returned to Arda by Eru with augmented spiritual powers, believed Sauron to be more powerful.