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the impossibilty of abused!harry

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Ilyena87, Sep 5, 2006.

  1. Ilyena87

    Ilyena87 Guest

    there is an enormous amount of fanfics where harry is physically abused.
    this is so much against canon that I don't understand how it can be so common.
    in canon the dursleys never physically abuse harry. vernon tries once in ootp to strangle harry, but he isn't able to since harry's magic or something interferes (this is in the first chapter, I think, I don't have the book here). which means it isn't possible for the dursleys to physically abuse harry, even if they wanted to.
    it is completely AU, so why is it so bloody common with abused!harry fics.
    :confused:
     
  2. Dreakon

    Dreakon Squib

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    Many people probably incorrectly assume that physical abuse is the worst kind of abuse a child can suffer. I can assure you it is not, though its effectiveness is not to be taken lightly.
     
  3. silvananoir

    silvananoir First Year

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    Although it isn't canon, it isn't hard to believe that the Dursley's wouldn't take that step. It is obvious that Harry has been at the least emotionally abused.
     
  4. Rainstorm

    Rainstorm Fourth Year

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    Probably several reasons for it:
    1) Harry is weak and needs to be rescued by 'Sevvie' or Draco.
    2) Harry is weak and has to rely on some Mary Sue to save him.
    3) Harry snaps and suddenly goes on a rampage.
    4) Provides absurd amounts of angst so that Harry can then go cry in a corner or cut himself so that all the emo kids have a reason to identify with him.
    5) Means he has something to break down in his soulmate's arms about.
    6) Most fanfiction writers cant be arsed/are incapable of writing more subtle abuse as it's not quick enough.

    Pretty much it's a good Deus Ex Machina for several possibilities and considering the general standard of fanfiction at the moment the fact that it directly contradicts cannon comes second to that.
     
  5. Ilyena87

    Ilyena87 Guest

    doesn't accidental magic ring a bell? magical children cannot be physically abused, their magic stops it e.g. in the cases of both voldemort and harry someone at some point tries to physically abuse them, and they can't it's not possible. the magic interferes in the situation. it might not be a big step for the dursleys, but it is for the magic ( that's the way it seems at least).
    I mean can you really see a wizard as powerful as harry being abused and his magic not reacting? it doesn't happen ( it's even confirmed by rowling in the ootp event.) so why do people make harry and his magic so pathetic, it's very unrealistic.
     
  6. Dreakon

    Dreakon Squib

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    Indeed probably mostly because fo those reasons...

    Seriously though we know he has a fucked up life in canon without authors making it worse. He already is a mediocre wizard-in-training with the fate of the wizarding world hanging on whether or not he can defeat an evil, powerful, gifted sorcerer with at least 50 years of experience against his 6 (going on 7).

    There's no reason to heap more abuse on his already (assumed) fragile psyche.
     
  7. Mordecai

    Mordecai Drunken Scotsman –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    i think its just so that the authors can identify with/or feel superior to/in control of Harry. It allows for angst in vast quantities, and it lets the the author do damn near whatever they want to Harry, he shrugs it off cause he has had worse from the Dursleys.
     
  8. Xenon

    Xenon Professor

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    keyword. "accidental". I refuse to belive children have an automatos defense in HP. Sure, maybe it'll react every now and then(hell maybe even a majority of the time), but its not going to save his ass every time. if that were the case 90% of his canon non-magical injuries wouldn't have happened.

    While I agree that the abused Harry thing is a over used cliche, its not impossible, one would think
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2006
  9. ip82

    ip82 Prisoner

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    I never liked discussions like this. Convincing me that something isn't possible just because it's not according to the canon is rather hypocrytical on a site devoted mostly to Dark!Harry stories. Honestly, abused!Harry is just as likely as Dark!Harry, maybe even more so. Proving that it's against the canon won't stop anyone from reading it... and it shouldn't.
     
  10. Dreakon

    Dreakon Squib

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    I think what Ilyena is trying to say is that when most people think of canon!Harry, they think about a little kid that gets the shit beaten out of him on a dail basis, even though there's little to no evidence in canon that supports that.

    Of course you can write it like he has been physically abused, it wouldn't be fanfiction otherwise. It's just that more people have to realize that that's probably not how canon!Harry's life has been up 'till now.
     
  11. ip82

    ip82 Prisoner

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    Well no, canon!Harry isn't abused... too much. He is a little bit though, depending on your definition of abuse. Stuffing a ten year old in a cupboard and favouring the other kid is abuse, even if it's more psychological then physical.

    But then again, canon!Harry is everything a little but not much - he's a bit whiny, sometimes angsty, at times smart, occasionally powerful, both lazy and determined, good-looking and scrawny etc... That's why you can accent any of this characteristics in fanfiction and turn him into whatever character you like.
     
  12. the-caitiff

    the-caitiff Death Eater

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    I have to agree with IP, just because it wasn't physical doesn't mean it isn't abuse. Starvation, being locked in his room or cupboard, denying him contact with friends, workload vs food consumption... This is all abuse, not to mention the verbal trash he has to endure on a daily basis.

    Whether or not Vernon bends him over a chair and buggers him after a nice beating with a belt doesn't matter. The boy is screwed for any kind of normal life without a lot of time in a psych's office. If wizard's have psych's that is, or if the "boy who lived" could go to one. He certainly can't go to a muggle for help with his many issues because of the darn secresy statutes.
     
  13. jbern

    jbern Alba Mater

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    By the same token though it is never said that Vernon or Petunia abused Harry. You can be certain that Dudders and his gang did. That's what bullies do at that age.

    Of course the rest of it is up to the writer. I don't think accidental magic is an automatic always on defensive system. Supposed Harry was spanked on occasion, is that abusedHarry? Maybe he was hit with a belt once or twice (I was growing up - does that make me abused?). It's when authors take it to the ludicrous extreme where teachers and other adults somehow see the tiny barely 4 foot tall boy as some kind of miscreant juvenile gangleader that deserves whatever beatings he may get that pegs the unnecessary angst meter for me. I also suspect any teacher worth a damn would notice when that Harry's lunch is basically nothing like in most of these angsty fics. Hell, I remember 5th grade when after forgetting my little brown bag two days in a row (because of my innate 10 year old stupidity) good old Mrs. Craley bought me lunch that day.

    Most of the time the author's seem to be tripping on an overdose of Oliver Twist or something, because somehow JKR's commercialized plot hole ridden garbage has become confused with Dickens along the way. IP always says it best that if he were minister of magic, the admission to Hogwarts would be contingent on an unbreakable vow to support the ministry. What a worthless plot device!

    Jim
     
  14. Rainstorm

    Rainstorm Fourth Year

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    Oh I completely agree, it's just that a lot of readers/authors have trouble working that out and subtlety is beyond them, as such they have to go for the more obviously traumatic scenes (I'm not saying that they are but on the surface they seem to be). Catechism is a good fanfiction example of mental abuse causing far more trouble than physical abuse ever could.

    To get the shock factor people go for blood and immediate pain rather than anything more complex. The problem is that although there is no obvious evidence of Harry being physically assaulted there is also little evidence of him being mentally abused in canon.

    Also, Harry's magic does respond to him being in trouble when he hasnt been using it, the only accidental magic we see is when he has been in trouble and not using magic for a while such as escaping from the bullies by apparating to the roof, or the aunt Marge thing whilst he was on his holidays, it does beg the theory that accidental magic only occurs when it isn't let out through actual spells which would fit with the whole 'Harry can't be physically abused as his magic will defend him thing'.
     
  15. Lucinda

    Lucinda First Year

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    I think some minor (if there is such a thing) physical abuse for Harry is canonically posible. Considering what we've seen from Vernon Dursley, I'd be willing to believe that he may have thrown Harry into that cupboard - as in bodily lifted and heaved - instead of just bellowing and chasing. I'm pretty sure throwing a child into a cupboard would be counted as abusive. Limited food - would that be classed as physical abuse or mental, because it's got inarguable physical effects. Is it counted as physical abuse to demand more work out of a child than some would demand of a grown adult, to refer to Harry's usual heavy load of chores (which I suddenly can't remember if came from the books or too many fanfics). I would not expect a ten year old child to fry anything, let alone the massive quantities of bacon and whatever else Dudley consumes - the chance of burns is too high.

    Maybe nobody's chaining him down and whipping his back until you can see bones, but I'd say that you could make a strong case for some physical abuse going on. The mental/emotional is a given - just look at what they say about his parents.

    Though I must admit that there are far too many stories that just whip out all sorts of painful things to do to Harry 'just because'. Abuse is not cool. It does not make for the poor, beaten (possibly crippled and/or raped) boy to fall in lurve with Snape or Draco. The 'blood protection' explanation wouldn't be enough to make Harry go back if things were that bad. Besides, don't you think that Madam Pmphrey would have noticed the scars left by some of that stuff on Harry's inevitable next trip to the hospital wing?
     
  16. LINKed up

    LINKed up Chief Warlock DLP Supporter

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    There is one big thing that undermines this whole argument: anything is possible in fanfiction, it all depends on what the author wants to do. If the author wants abused!Harry, the author writes it as such. Live with it.
     
  17. mcatrage

    mcatrage Raptured to Hell

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    emo kids like to think that getting abused is cool.

    and as said before some slash people like a weak harry so snape/draco can make him strong.
     
  18. The Lord of Chaos

    The Lord of Chaos Slug Club Member

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    I disagree

    I completely disagree with all of you who think that it is impossible for Harry to have been physically abused, except for jbern. *ducks as flames shoot over head* First of all, like jbern suggested, Harry regularly got the snot kicked out of him by Dudley and the gang and I doubt that accidental magic helped him out most of the time. Which isn't to say that accidental magic never helped him out. The first chapter of the first book is filled with examples of Harry's accidental magic. However, it is not feasible to believe that Dudley would still find "Harry Hunting" fun if every time he tried to hurt his cousin something happened, especially if Harry went around shocking people in reaction to violence.
    And then I think that if you would accept that Harry wasn't able to use accidental magic every time someone was hurting him, then you have to look at the Dursleys and especially Vernon before you so casually make light of the idea that Harry was physically abused. There are four commonly recognized forms of child abuse, emotional, neglect, and physical. We can most clearly see that the Dursleys fulfill the first two, and we see hints of physical abuse. However quite frankly I feel that the very idea that Harry was sexually abused is no were in cannon and very unlikely. Lets go down the list shall we.

    Emotional abuse is loosely defined as causing mental injury to a child, locking a child in a closet is actually mentioned in an article I read on the subject. We can see that he is emotionally abused every time he is insulted by his care givers, when he is called a worthless freak, when he is treated like a burden, given hand-me-down cloths when the family can clearly afford more. And being forced to sleep in a cupboard when the only other child in the house has two bedrooms is definitely emotional abuse.

    Then we get to neglect, for which there are three sub-categories: physical, educational, and emotional. Harry is physically neglected by being underfed, by only being supplied with clothes that are for a child five times his girth, by being worked far more than is appropriate for a child his age, and by being kept in a cupboard when it is within the families capabilities to house him in a bedroom. Educational neglect is not providing for the proper education of a child and is not contested here. Emotional neglect is quite plainly is not providing for a child's emotional needs. Any one who thinks that not getting affection is not detrimental to a child is just wrong, Harry is not emotionally independent. We all need hugs growing up, we all need to be shown that we are cared for, and Harry quite plainly didn't get any. Can you see Petunia giving Harry a hug, rocking him to sleep, wishing him a good day at school. They tell Harry quite plainly that he is a burden to the family.

    Physical abuse is any action on behalf of a caretaker to a child which causes injury as intended. Even shaking can legally be defined as physical abuse. In the Harry Potter books we can see well enough that the Dursleys are not above trying to hurt Harry. For instance, Petunia, with little incentive, attempted to bludgeon Harry over the head with a frying pan. We can see Vernon threatening Harry with a severe beating for a small infraction. And even in the Movie, we can see Vernon pulling his hair to such an extent that his head is forced back at an awkward angle, and then thrown into a cupboard. True, we do not see the cupboard beating, whipping, burning, stabbing, or mutilating Harry. However can you honestly say that you can't see Vernon having a bad day at work, getting drunk and coming home and kicking harry out of his way, or slapping him for being too loud. Vernon is a large man with a bad temper. His opinion on capital punishment is made clear in POA, and he greatly supports his son in the pursuit of the violent sport of boxing (nothing against boxing, just making a point). The Dursleys are not above physical abuse.

    Lastly Sexual abuse, I won't bother going over this. The Dursleys see him as sub human, and look at him as though he was disgusting. I don't at all think it likely that they sexually abused him in the slightest.

    All of you seem to have linked child abuse fics with bad slash stories and marry sues. And I agree in part, child abuse is a bad reason for a romantic situation, especially a slash one. It reeks too much of trying to take advantage of an emotionally damaged person. However there are worth while abuse fics out there. Not just for cutters. Abuse fics can show us a main character who has been terribly emotionally damaged and who overcomes his past, (without the help of a romantic interest), with the help of friends, and goes on to be a great hero. Many of the abuse fics out there are written for sick reasons, and aren't worth the hard drive space they are stored on. But I feel that you've written off quite callously a great plot device, and may be missing out on some great fics.
    :mid3
     
  19. Dark Syaoran

    Dark Syaoran No. 4 Admin

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    It is not impossible.

    I was going to mention that.

    But yeah, it isnt impossible. Dudley and his gang kicked the shit out of him a lot, I think. Or attempted too. I'm sure he was struck a few times, but we havent seen it. Marge used to send her Bulldog after him.

    I think they'd only do it when extremely pissed off, but it wouldnt be more than one whack, maybe two. Not a flogging. We havnt seen it happen in the books, but it doesnt mean it didnt happen in the 'off-screen' time. It did skip from him being a year old until he was ten. A lot of time in there.

    Bleh.
     
  20. Niffler Lord

    Niffler Lord Headmaster

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    I was going to say a lot but The Lord of Chaos kindda said it all so all I would be doing is repeating.

    Is Harry:

    1. Physically abused - yes but not to an expreme. He is treated roughly and pushed around but never beaten to an inch of his life. Those kind of scars can't be well hidden and the last thing the Dursleys want is attention on their treatment of Harry.

    2. Emotionally abused - definetly. Being called degrading names and forced to be the servent, ie sub-human, is facets of his childhood. There is also the fact that he can't retaliate without Vernon or Petunia punishing him. Like all the Harry Hunting. He can't stand up to himself cause then when he gets home it will be worse for him.

    3. Educationally abused - Other than seeming to have incompetant teachers no.

    4. Sexually abused - definetly not. Neither Vernon or Dudly or Petunia look on him as human and so don't even thing in that manner. Not to mention that Vernon and Dudly are gargantuan bigots that would most likely think homosexuality is evil.

    I agree that Harry had a very harsh childhood. But not to the extremes that some people take it. After all Vernon nor Petunia are not idiots that want all their transgressions publically broadcasted. That would be bad for them and they know it.
     
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