Huh, I read it the exact opposite way.

Oh, I meant that being persecuted isn't actually justification for persecuting others. The humanity line was included because I was getting all dramatic by the end there, to be honest. The whole "An eye for an eye" idea became obsolete back in ancient Mesopotamia; the biblical quote actually refers to monetary damages. Humanity, on the whole, has progressed beyond that reasoning, even if many parts of the world still haven't.

I got a bit carried away, I doubt Knoq was actually intending to defend racism and bigotry. I apologize for that.

But yeah, to get back on track, the issue with the bad guys winning is that we never get any indication of nuance from them in the original story, and what we do see of them is rather dreadful.

 

Wow I do not remember that, I remember the meeting but not the torture. Torturing isn't killing them though, they're used as an example, not really because the Deatheaters get off on it (except maybe Bella). Though that's not to say they don't think it's fun.

Yeah I can agree that they'd do this. People need to be made examples of or they'll never accept your beliefs. But I don't think that's Voldemort's goal, and while I can see Deatheaters enjoying killing Muggles, at the same time I can see them not really thinking the Muggles are even worth the time. Doing so would only be useful for scaring Wizards that believe Muggles are 'equal'. If their regime took over I doubt they'd touch the Muggles ever again.

Yeah I absolutely believe that would be something the Voldemort government would do.


My words aren't coming out very well so my post(s) recently kind of sound garbage. But hopefully you get what I'm trying to convey.

 

Don't worry, I (as the person who got angry over the comparison of Death Eaters to an unintentional anti-semitic canard,) completely forgot about that as well. It's not like I try to remember anything about HBP (besides the Luna/Harry interactions.)

See, that would imply that they're acting from a rational basis, which they pretty clearly aren't; or, well, at least most of them aren't. The constant bigotry in wizarding society against muggleborns themselves indicates that the issue is with a sense of bigotry rather than desperation and fear. They're just nasty people in general.

No, you're making sense. I think, if you accept the premise that the Death Eaters are doing what they're doing for a logical reason, your ideas would be very accurate. The issue is that all indications from the books are that they aren't acting the way they do because of logical fears, but rather because of simple bigotry.

Most stories featuring Voldemort as a sane adversary have him just playing the virulent pureblood faction for his own gain. I like the idea a lot, myself, since it makes him more interesting as a character.

 

Yeah this characterisation is golden, I enjoy reading it a lot.

I do agree that the Deatheaters are pretty stupid and more lash out because of hatred then any logical reason. If they were though it would be a lot more interesting. Why are the bad guys always so simple, "if we don't like it destroy it".

 

Oh I wasn't. About the closest you could say I do is defend unedited versions of Huckleberry Finn. I also defend fictional representations of what a Nazi victory would have looked like that aren't all "Muh Nazis r teh retards" or the much stupider "dey libbural lize anyways and become nice and stuff" and other garbage. Is it terrible for the losers and victims, oh yes, but that doesn't preclude it being good for the victors. That's how nations, kingdoms and empires were mostly built, the successful anyways. On the corpses of the vanquished, conquered and defeated.

Oh and as far witches and wizards not being harmed at all, we don't know that. Like, at all. We just know that burning was ineffective for magicals who had wands and knew the correct spell.

As for the rest, I stand by it. Pureblood Wizarding kind has far more in common with Jews than Nazis, and outside of the trainwreck that is Deathly Hallows, there really isn't much to point out Death Eaters and Voldemort as Nazis. More like the KKK. Muggleborns should know their place, etc etc etc.

Also, people who shit on fics that have a Voldemort victorious, who isn't totally ridiculous and self-destructive, but instead re-orders magical society and what is accepted. As in changing social mores. I tire of people being offended at any vaguely postive/functional portrayal of a society that doesn't conform to our modern morality. Its stifling and disappointing. Prince of a Dark Kingdom is one of the fics that occasionally catches hell because....Voldemort isn't a batshit insane madman. He is instead an effective sovereign who leaves the day to day affairs to his people.

Hell, even in DH, he isn't shown Crucio'ing people left and right for shits and giggles like the fandom likes to portray him doing.

Pretty much most if not all bad ending fics which are worth a shit should be making the effort to show society under Voldemort....simply working. The fate of Muggleborns can be left up in the air, and Muggles married into magicals are done for, but that still leaves a decently viable population. And so the society could move, could grow, and while they wouldn't be so spiffy and accepting and chanting Kumbaya around the marshmallow fire, that doesn't mean everything has to go to shit or that the society falls apart.

And that's my beef would a good portion of not just HP fandom, but a good portion of the fiction-producing internet. Past 1950, its nearly a bannable offense to portray a starkly racist society being successful, thriving, and just not giving a damn about certain issues. Its either "muh progressivism" all the way, or your society must die. And its gotten boring and tiring.

So good "Bad End" fics, from the perspective of Canon!Harry Potter, are extremely difficult to come by.

Oh my fucking god. This is some nice moral high ground. Too bad a whole lot of people would, and continue to, disagree with this notion and proceed to give no fucks. Like, I agree with it, its mostly true...but you have to convince every case of it individually, first to even hear you out and then to accept it. Take a guess how a lot of the persecuted react.
______________________
@Gene

You seem to forget pretty much the entire world outside of Western Europe and the majority "White" Anglosphere nations.

Guess what? They are all pretty damned bigoted, either racial or religious, or more likely, both. And they count as human too. And seeing as this is the thought train you hold to, a blatantly hypocritical, doublethinking, "only-first-world-nations-are-human-and-East-Asia-doesn't-count" attitude, I know for a fact that it would nothing but a simmering flame war to engage you further on this topic.

"Jewish Elite Cabal"

pffft. If you mean an organized and direct one, well probably not, but Jews in America have done extremely well for themselves. Good for them. Maybe we shouldn't have told them that

1. Fuck the poor
2. Acquire profits
3. Dominate everything with money
4. Rich people ARE our Aristocracy

was, and remains, in fact the American way and that they shouldn't be ashamed of greed. It seems they took it to heart a little too well. :banana:

 

First of all purebloods are not a minority amongst wizardkind, unlike Jews amongst americans.
How in the world are purebloods anything like jews? Deatheaters are more like the KKK then they are like nazis. But death eaters are nothing like jews.
I repeat, there is no group of jews that goes around murdering converts.
Death eaters are, for the most part, a group of pureblood wizards who murder muggleborns, muggleborn sympathizers, and sometimes muggles for the hell of it. They want to take over the wizarding world and institute this as policy.
Jews... have literally none of those qualities.

 

Eh - I now read the whole thread. It derailed way too far.