Now, I have a question. While I was googling the chapter in GoF where Harry has a vision (Chapter 29: The Dream), a Wiki page came up about Legilimency and I opened it so that I could figure out which chapter it was, but it didn't include Harry's visions. I always saw Harry's visions as a sort of passive Legilimency since the subject came up in OotP, and especially after DH. But is it not Legilimency? I don't mean opinions of what Legilimency really is, I mean is there any canon evidence that it is or it is not Legilimency? Like, does Snape or Dumbledore specifically ever say the visions aren't Legilimency?

EDIT by Minion
Moved out of the Question thread.

 

Harry doesn't know Legilimency, and that's definitely canon, so whatever's allowing him to see into Voldemort's mind isn't that. As Dumbledore explains (in the DH King's Cross vision, I think?), what's happening is that they're (Voldemort and Harry) delving into "heretofore unexplored realms of magic" or something like that - basically, the whole "unintended Horcrux" thing. Like we see with Nagini, a Horcrux is magically linked, somehow, to the caster. The link is kind of wonky, since neither of them intended for it to happen, but this is how it manifests with them.

 

There is some evidence that it is legilimency, based on Snape's comments in OotP:

Indeed, the fact that Harry was learning occlumency at all seems to indicate that it's legilimency.

Incidentally, this passage also sheds light on the process of occlumency that I hadn't appreciated on previous reads:

We've long suspected that "clear your mind" is just the first stage in mastering occlumency, and here we have the next level. It seems that after you are able to clear your mind of all thought, you advance to clearing your mind of specific thoughts, namely those ones that you wish to hide.

As suspected, there's no grand complex skill involved here. It's simply about mental discipline and practice, training yourself to instinctually guide your thoughts away from certain things. It's not about willpower, per se, it's about self-control (or self-denial).

It's amazing how I can still find new stuff to refine my understanding of HP magic, even after so many reads.

There's some evidence that Harry actually advanced towards learning something of the more advanced version of occlumency, because he unsuccessfully attempts it in HBP, when he tried to specifically not think of the HBP's Potions Book after Snape finds him with bleeding Malfoy in the bathroom.

Jury is still out on whether Harry has got the hang of occlumency and legilimency by the end of DH. Certainly he is able to practice both of them against Voldemort very successfully, but it's not clear if his technique is Voldemort-specific.

 

How many practitioners of legilimency do we know from canon? I'm pretty sure the only ones stated were Voldemort, Dumbledore and Snape. If so, knowledge of Occlumency seems quite useless after the war ended, assuming that Occlumency has no other use other than to protect the mind from attack.

(The rarity of legilimency would probably explain why guys like Moody and Lupin never bothered with Occlumency. Then again, it does not explain why guys like Snape - before he became a spy - and Slughorn ever bothered to learn it.)

 

Occlumency protects the mind from all attacks, not just legilimency. It allows you to lie through veritaserum, for example.

 

Bellatrix knew enough Occlumency to teach Draco in the summer before HBP.

 

Alright, a bit of a mix reaction here.

Hm. Harry didn't manage to hide that he read the HBP Potions book and he didn't manage to hide that 'Roonil Wazlib' is not his nickname. But Snape never found out where Harry stashed the book. So perhaps Harry did manage to Occlude that. I don't quite remember if there was an indication of that or if Harry just wasn't thinking about it at all. I'll have to re-read that section.

I actually wrote two enormous paragraphs with examples of why I thought this was Legilimency and that was the influence of the soul, but I'll make this short because this is turning into thread discussion. What I take from your answers and my own interpretation is that the Horcrux allows Harry's and Voldemort's minds to reach across space (though not time, evidently; it seems to be instantaneous, there's nothing to suggest that Harry or Voldemort reached into the past or future) as though they're always looking each other in the eye, but what the soul is feeling can overwhelm concentration (such as in OotP). Being able to stop thinking about something, and either purposely looking for something or thinking about something too much seems to be the difference of Occlumency and Legilimency. I would say that the times Harry entered Voldemort's mind without the man's knowledge was Legilimency. Not a finesse use of Legilimency, but still Legilimency. Of course, that's my own take, I imagine many people disagree. Ah well.

The only other person that we can say with some degree of certainly is a Legilimens besides Dumbledore, Voldemort, and Snape is Bellatrix. She taught Draco Occlumency, and there's only one way of learning it we know of.

We can't possibly know if Moody and Lupin don't know about Occlumency and Legilimency. You probably only think Moody doesn't because Crouch Jr. knew so much about him. But there's no indication that Crouch knew Occlumency and Legilimency. On the contrary, he was spewing secrets left and right under Veritaserum. Either he didn't know Occlumency or he didn't care at that point whether they knew what happened. And Snape thought Lupin was smuggling Sirius into the castle all year, and that's a pretty good indication that he had no idea what was going on in Lupin's mind. So we just don't know, it's all speculation.

 

Snape was an asshole and should not be equated to being on the side of angels just because he wanted Voldemort dead. He hated Siruis Black, and wanted him dead in the worst way (hello dementor snack). Nor was Remus Lupin held in any respect.

Would it really be out of character for him to know exactly what was going on in Lupin's head and bad mouth him anyway? (He would never do that to any- oh, wait, Harry Potter)

 

In both cases of Legilimency and Occlumency, there seems to be a misconception that it's a binary value- as if you have shields or don't; either you can read minds or can't.

I'd treat these things with a bit more fluidity; both talents have different aspects of usefulness, and just because you can do one part doesn't equate to absolute mastery of another

Bellatrix knows enough Occlumency to defend her mind from Snape's wandless Legilimency but not to resist the Dark Lord nor to prevent her losing her mind to the Dementors' influence. She may have been able to resist Veritaserum on a good day with sufficient preparation... or perhaps she never would be able to exert that much self-control.

Mad-Eye Moody would have known some Occlumency if he'd ever heard of the talent, given his paranoia, but having been beaten, starved and facing Barty Crouch Jr. using a wanded casting of Legilimens would not be able to keep him out.

Harry's connection to Voldemort was sufficient to put both of them at the front door of the others' mind (eliminating any complications due to distance) but Occlumency used by either could keep their connection 'closed' so long as they applied it. The effect of Harry getting a view into Voldemort's head whenever the shields were forgotten would be called Legilimency, but Harry wasn't casting the spell Legilimens. It'd be redundant- he was already in.

There's an interesting aspect here when Voldemort possessed Nagini in order to penetrate the Department of Mysteries and attack Arthur Weasley- I doubt Voldemort intended for Harry to tag along, but the process of possessing his snake seems to require that he open up the barriers in his mind.

 

Why do you think occlumency can protect from dementors?

 

Because it makes sense, i guess. At least to the degree that dementors make you relive your worst memories, and occlumency appears to be, at least in part, about controlling what you are thinking about. So in effect you would still feel cold and miserable, but still have control over your mind.

 

All you guys seem to think that being occlumens means being able to lie under veritaserum. I don't remember this given anywhere in the cannon. Is this a case of fannon becoming established fact? Can anyone provide a cannon evidence of that?

 

Sure. Here you go.

Also:

Just in case anyone is planning on writing one of those fix-fics where Harry gloats about fixing all the "problems" in wizarding Britain using a simple solution, here's part of that quote again, something I feel needs to be written, preferably in letters of fire twenty feet high, as many times as possible:

 

We know Slughorn is a capable occlumens and even he was said to keep an antidote to Veritaserum in case he was dosed. In short Occlumency itself isn't the perfect defence.
Harry having an insight into Voldemort's mind can be argued to be legilimency but it's hardly ever voluntary and never quite in his control so it really can't be compared to what real legilimens do.
That being said by the end of the series I'm sure Harry was at the very least competent with Occlumency

 

Is there anything in the books to suggest, that Veritaserum has these weaknesses (I wish it would. A perfect truth drug is sorta gamebreaker and in the books, the drug is not used in court (which means that either it ain't perfect or it would be too much of an infringement of mental privacy to do so ("Die Gedanken sind frei" or, at least, should be))).

 

The very fact that its seldom used suggests it has weaknesses. Pottermore and the interviews elaborate on precisely what its weaknesses are.

 

I should've worded my question differently; Something along the lines of the weaknesses being explicitly mentioned in the books.

I was talking about canon...

 

'k. I'm rather new here and had no idea, that such stuff is frowned upon here.