When it comes to Theon lets just agree to disagree on that one.

The Boltons need Sansa because as you say she legitimizes their rule and your forgetting just how handy that can be. Actually Tyrrion made a good point about it. Dany has never been to Westeros and yet people are willing to lay down their lives to make her queen because she's a Tag(though the Dragons help).

 

This is why people still have hope for Theon.

That was long ago, though. They were all dead now. Jory, old Ser Rodrik, Lord Eddard, Harwin and Hullen, Cayn and Desmond and Fat Tom, Alyn with his dreams of knighthood, Mikken who had given him his first real sword. Even Old Nan, like as not.

And Robb.

Robb who had been more a brother to Theon than any son born of Balon Greyjoy’s loins. Murdered at the Red Wedding, butchered by the Freys. I should have been with him. Where was I? I should have died with him.

 

I'm going to preface this with a resounding "I have not read the books".

You seem to be going a bit far in the whole "why are you deviating HBO!?" and forgetting to think outside the "the book did it better, why change it?!" mentality.

This is a tv show for one. A tv show on a premium channel for two. As such, it can't just take years long hiatuses between seasons, that would be catastrophic. It likewise, can't take multiple years to show lots of little happenings here and there with a million different characters that exist in GRR Martin's books because that's to many actors to handle.

Secondly, it's to my understanding that some of the character's storylines are reaching the limit of whats available to show in the books, so what exactly do you expect them to do with these characters? Just not show them until GRR Martin pumps out another book that continues their storyline? May i remind you this is a tv show...

I can understand someone saying the book did things much better, or not liking the changes to certain characters the show may have made, and it may just be me, but it sounded like you were plain not thinking about what you were complaining about since you either forgot or don't understand why the changes were necessary.

 

After reading other people's posts and having thought about the season some more, I find myself concluding that this is probably the worst season so far.

They made a big show with Sansa's Dark Lady moment last season and now she's back to being someone's toy. I wanted her to pull out a dagger on Ramsay, something, not just let herself be flopped around like a dead fish.

As I said earlier, Arya made a stupid, rash decision and I kind of hate her arc this season.

Where's the Dornish badassery? Sand Snakes vs. Bronn and Jamie was unsatisfactory. After the awesome duel last season, it was obvious that the actress portraying Obara (I think that's the one with the spear) can't handle the spear. The speed, finesse, it just isn't there and the showrunners had to know that Obara would be compared to Oberyn.

Tyrion is basically reduced to repeating his season one plot with a twist, which I feel is a waste of one the best developed characters in the show. I'm aware that that's the book plot, more or less, but I don't see the need to drag it out.

Don't even get me started on Daenerys. Boring.

And to reiterate, Tommen is just bland. Joffrey was a great character, I really hated his guts. Whenever Tommen's on screen, I'm just waiting for Margaery to show up.

Jon keeps me going.

 

Yeah, this season is turning into a disaster. Season 4 managed to not completely fuck up, even when stuff like Brienne encountering the Hound for no reason and punching his ticket out of nowhere... that sort of thing doesn't actually matter in the long run so I can turn a blind. But when characters are taken, characters who still have plot left in the books, are taken and changed for no real reason... it's stupid.

It's one thing to leave out convoluted and unnecessary plot points, such as zombie!catelyn (but to still have zombie!Mountain is dumb). I get the point of not wanting too many new characters, but the new ones we do have are completely arbitrary. The Dorne stuff could have been interesting (in the books its dreadfully dull), but we have... this. This and lulzy Faith Militant crap.

The Tyrion and Jorah plot should have been interesting. Hell, I'm all for removing the completely bullshit Aegon Targaryen plot, but we got in replacement is somehow worse, and more boring than canon, and books 4 and 5 are just hundreds of pages of filler. And instead of having some character I don't care about (jon connington) get greyscale, it's Jorah, who is one of the more interesting characters on the show (if a bit 2D). Like, first they kill of Barristan the Badass (though his fight scene was awful), then Jorah is given the mark of death. With the way everything is turning out, I would almost rather prefer the shit Aegon plot, hell Varys had built up to that sort of thing since Season one, with "serving the realm" and "not ready for war".

Oh yeah, and the stuff with Sansa is terrible. Sure, pretty much her entire existence as a character is awful, but what happened in the last episode is almost inexcusable. For those who don't know, she doesn't really even do anything in books 4 and 5. Instead, her best friend (jeyne pool, the daughter of Ned Stark's steward, you actually see her in S1E1), is proclaimed to be the last Stark, and since almost all the people who would know what they look like are dead, the lie passes easily(ish), and pretty much all the stuff between the boltons and sansa in the books happen to her best friend Jeyne instead, and Theon is the one person who really knows the truth and tries to help.

Honestly, it's one thing to know something like the Red Wedding is coming, because that was written fifteen years ago, but it's another thing for the writers to take their own initiative and bastardize another character for the sake of what? Shock value? No, it's not really shocking, it's just stupid. I get that they didn't include Jeyne down in the King's Landing stuff early on, but is that a valid excuse as to why she didn't get shoehorned in later on when necessary? Is this show really going to go the way of True Blood? Because it's starting to feel that way.

 

Jesus, I stopped caring about the books because I just lost interest in the plot/ characters.

I feel like the show would be that x2.

I do enjoy experiencing it vicariously through this thread though, lol.

 

It appears you and I will never agree on this, but art is subjective after all.

 

Yeah, my enjoyment followed the same route as the books. I loved it in the beginning, then kind of started to lose interest as they went on.

Edit: Just saw the end of the ep (so possibly lacking context), but I don't get why people are so suddenly furious. Didn't almost the exact same thing happen to Dany in the show's beginning? That was graphic too - which doesn't necessarily mean worse. The mind can paint pretty horrid a picture.

Just seems odd. I feel like Ramsay is the difference. People probably thought they couldn't hate anyone more than Joff.

 

It just doesn't really fit into her character arc. Dany in season 1 had just been sold to a warlord in order to earn an army for her brother. So she starts as a victim and slowly works herself up into a powerful position.

Sansa also starts out as innocent and naive in season 1 and is basically a victim for the next 2 seasons. Then she learns from the people around her and eventually undergoes some kind of transformation last season to emerge stronger and hopefully as an actual player of the game.
This was built up further in the first couple of episodes of this season, culminating in her decision to go to Winterfell to marry Ramsay and eventually take revenge and take over.
Now, after all that buildup she's suddenly innocent-naive-victim-Sansa from Season 2 again? What the fuck?

I expected some Margaery-type acting from her. (Margaery actually was one of her 'tutors' for learning to play the game even!) You know, trying to seduce Ramsay and give the Boltons a false sense of security. Something like that.
(If it turns out that she was playing the victim on purpose in order to do that, I'll be pleasantly surprised, but I really doubt it.)

What was her plan when she decided to go to Winterfell? What was she expecting to happen?
Was it just "I guess I'll go there and see what happens. Hopefully nothing bad." or was she just trusting Littlefinger to have a plan?
This wasn't her plan going wrong and something bad happening to her. She apparently didn't even have one!

It just feels really frustrating. Maybe this will be just a one-off like the Jaime-Cersei rape scene. Something where the writers and/or director misjudged how a scene would play and in the future they'll quickly change direction and disregard it. I'm not too hopeful though.

Overall I was pretty satisfied with the season until now. This was the first really weak episode so far, I felt. Especially what's happening in Dorne feels so weak. Season 2 also had a few really mishandled plot-strings though, so I think that they'll recover in the future.

 

I very, very much doubt that in depth plot analysis is the reason for the outrage I saw on Twitter. It seemed far more basic.

 

They had rape. Rape is bad. Twitter is angry about rape.

 

I'm pretty sure there were people believing Baelish "He's already fallen for you" bullshit in episode 4. They didn't expect to be reminded that Ramsay is nothing but a cruel bastard who loves torture both physical and psychological.

 

I love how upset people are about this.

Perhaps I have more faith in Sansa than everyone here when I say that I think Sansa knew what she was getting into, knew what was going to happen, and accepted it to get Winterfel back.

Sansa might have been the victim in that scene, but I think she knew what was coming, and fully expected it.

We'll see how next episode goes, I might get more upset at her reaction if it turns out that I am wrong.

 

Pretty much this. It was fairly evident to me that she knew what she was getting into. That wasn't little innocent Sansa crying in despair as Ramsay raped her. That was cold, hardened Sansa letting her emotions briefly get the better of her. She hated it, yes, but she tried to bear it with as much dignity as possible.

I think that was the whole point of the 'You can't scare me' tub scene with Miranda; to show how different she is from the person she used to be.

 

I'm with Kai Shek and Khan on this. The next episode will tell us which way Sansa will go but something tells me she will retaliate one way or another. She knew what was going to happen and that it was in a sense inevitable. That said I still want Ramsay to die. More than ever.

From the moment Theon came to escort Sansa to the godswood I felt like throwing up and it only got worse. That last few minutes had more punch than the Red Wedding.

Now let's talk about the Sand Snakes and how strong the fail is with them. I'll confess that I never was a big fan of them in the books but this... this fucking travesty they did in the show is just ridiculous. Oh how sneaky they were and the face masks(I giggled at the masks) and all the fancy exotic weapons. And surely no one would know that it was them - I mean they had masks after all. I was getting embarrassed while watching it unfold. The whole fight scene was just haphazard and I'm still surprised that Bronn didn't just murder the ever loving stupid out of them.

It was bad. It was a weak scene. Poorly executed and worse, the actors are lacking.

I won't even comment on what they have done to Ellaria's character. Just thinking about it makes me salty as hell. :/


I'm holding my thumbs for Olenna.

 

Eh, the masks were probably just for the stunt doubles.

 

Not to mention Jaime and Bronn seemingly being able to walk right into the Water Gardens and up to Trystane and Myrcella without anyone noticing.

 

I'm really disappointed in the whole Dorne portrayal in the show. I thought the arrival of Oberyn and his fight with the Mountain was really well done, but then they give us some little girl screaming murder because someone tells her she's a good fighter for a girl? The whole acting was so poor I was completely out of it. The whole Dorne plot at the moment is pretty much a mess, one big farce.

As for Sansa, I think the fact we cared more about the rape scene than Daenerys is also the fact that we've gotten familiar with the girl. Sansa Stark is one of the main protagonist of the series, we've seen her evolved from a naive and innocent girl who had to harden herself to survive in King's Landing and the Vale. When I watched that scene I felt horrible, I felt sick, but I can't deny how well handled the scene was portrayed by the actors.

In retrospect, Daenerys was barely a full fledged character when we saw her getting raped by Drogo. People did not know what to expect from the show really, people did not care as much about her as they do about Sansa now or even Daenerys .

 

Wait... From reading the reactions here from the last episode, People are actually caring about what happens to Sansa? Sitting here actually hoping they kill her off, Don't like the character, sorry about that.