See, I don't really feel the need to take a major stand on whether Stannis was a nice guy or someone who was only motivated by power.

I think a very serious question in the series is just how much he cares about the law and his rights vs how much he cared about being fucked over and thus started to obsess about the law, since it was the only comfort he had.

I don't care to argue that he wouldn't have burned his daughter either. See, I don't need to be a Stannis fan to have a problem.

The thing with Show!Stannis is that any possible reasoning or nuance has been removed.

Maybe Stannis is a power-hungry prick hiding behind a prophecy. But, he is still the guy to go North and accept that the real struggle is there and that his focus is backwards. Nowhere to be seen in the show.

Stannis definitely burns people,which is horrible enough, but the reasons for this are collapsed (see:Florents)

Even when it comes time to kill his daughter the writers seem to completely elide the most important thing about Stannis; he knows. He knows what's coming for everyone. He knows it even better than when he almost burned Gendry. But this is brought up by implication. So the whole thing is framed in a sort of subtle way as a mere political struggle with that omission. Clearly, anyone with a brain can reason it out, but the showrunners leave it out and thus a person's interpretation can easily fall into the grooves they've set. In some reviews this seems to have the intended effect because it seems to be completely missing from the discourse.

I feel like the writers have been clear on Stannis for most of the series. The "good" or "grey" characters (namely anyone from Cat to Cersei) get passes and their evil actions foisted unto others. The "bad" (the Joffs) potentially get even worse. Stannis' camp was probably picked a while ago, probably based on privileged info.


The thing I love most about Stannis and Melisandre is how they fuck with our intuitions. Westerners simply feel that fanatics are wrong and alien, yet Melisandre is clearly right (sometimes). That introduces a certain amount of discomfort (kinda weakened because she's clearly wrong about the most important thing). Now, you can keep that discomfort, or you can just wipe it out.

 

Interesting points, specially the last one. TV Tropes argues that Melisandre when not trying to burn people is very empathetic and helpful, but she asses of as creepy or someone with second intentions thanks to her many times of inhuman behavior or fanaticism. It’s pretty weird.

 

Giovanni: interesting bit, that one about chiastic structures in GoT. Didn't know the concept and wouldn't have noticed it even if I had.

But...

... Why? :|

 

Almost all of the characters in Game of Thrones tell themselves an elaborate series of lies in order to make sure that they feel righteous in their actions. Ramsay does not have those pretensions. He's a sadist and fundamentally okay with that fact. He has a goal, and he does what he feels he needs to do in order to achieve it.

 

Of course he's okay with it. Whenever there'd be consequences for his actions there's a cut and we see he was totally successful in driving off, burning, flaying or raping whoever his opponent was.

The actual instability caused by his fixation with raping, flaying and burning? Conveniently swept away on the show. His relationship with his dad? Somehow more and less fucked up than Tyrion's.

Why would Ramsay ever be worried about anything? It's like he's writing his own sections of the show and knows that, until the climax, he's set to have as much fun as possible.

 

What I mean by that is that most of the characters in the show (and books, really) latch onto something that causes them problems, is perceived as a problem, or some other character flaw (real or imagined) and let attempting to change it define them. Ramsay, on the other hand, knows what his issue is. He just doesn't care to change it. When he does seek to change his original negative character buff, he does so by making a (realistic) plan and executing it. Pretty much no character (book or show) succeeds in that regard.

I actually think they did him a disservice in the show by failing to show more of his character's story arc (relative to what's in the books), largely because the instability is limited to his father berating him for castrating a valuable hostage (Theon) prior to taking Moat Cailin and telling him not to flay Northerners when collecting taxes. But also because the books show him as a lot more intelligent than the mindless psychopath portrayed on the show.

And it's quite fun watching him have as much fun as possible. He tortures all the characters I despise.

 

Roose also falls under that banner, but since he has no one to really rub against this season it doesn't show up.

Depending on where you stand Tywin might count. Olenna really doesn't give a fuck about anything. Littlefinger is a purely amoral bastard.

I dunno that he's more intelligent in the books. Roose must seriously be considering killing him there.

The example that comes to mind is one of the only loyal vassals of the North demanding something of the Boltons and Ramsay being totally unable to see that sometimes people have to be allowed to have their way and fantasizing about raping her with dogs for the crime of wanting something out of an alliance with a bunch of evil dicks.

Ramsay in the books looks and acts like a complete brute. Which is why he was caught in the first place. But Show!Ramsay never had to worry about that, the writers outright tell us that he's subtle enough that Littlefinger's little birds know nothing of him. Book!Ramsay is primarily "smarter" in that he tortured Theon for a reason, while Show!Ramsay is one of those situations where they kept the action but weakened the necessary motivations and prereqs.

He's clearly cunning, but the sort of smooth-talking, somewhat suave character capable of behaving every once in a while we see is actually a creation of the show.

 

Well. No surprises whatsoever there.

Stannis' encounter with Brienne was completely phoned in writing wise, and Jon's bit at the end happened a tad too fast. Both were pretty poorly choreographed.

Apart from that, not horrible. I'm currently amusing myself trying to imagine the colassal shitstorm that will occur if season 6 rolls around before a Winds release and Kit Harrington isn't confirmed to be returning.

 

They'll probably drag that out, no?

 

Well he has an interview saying he's not coming back for whatever that's worth.

 

I'm thinking, or hoping, that D&D told him to say that kind of stuff so fans don't figure out he's still alive before next season airs.

Cause it seems a bit odd to have Melisandre show up at the wall a few hours before if she wasn't going to have a hand in resurrecting Jon. I bet she uses Ghost as a sacrifice to bring him back (though I'm hoping she uses Olly).


Arya killing Trant was pretty cool. The actress has the dead eyes thing down well enough.

I lol'd at Dany's girl saying that only the Unsullies can keep the city peace. Does she mean the same unsullies that have been ambushed twice now? By a bunch of former slave owners who've never worked a day in their lives?

Also, fuck, I guess next season (and possibly book) is going to be more Dany doing nothing. This time she gets to be the damsel that needs to be saved and we'll get a nice send off for Jorah when they save her.

 

Pretty much this.

 

Btw, anyone find it puzzling that they cut to black instead of showing Brienne killing Stannis? This series has never shied away from showing the death of a major character so I was wondering if perhaps Brienne stopped herself at the last second or Pod showed up and stopped her. Even though I'm not a fan of show!Stannis I kinda want him to still be alive.

 

If that Harington interview is accurate (that is, Jon Snow is well and truly dead), I think I'm done with the series. Hell, if that angle is coming from GRRM, then I think I might be done with the books as well. Butchering Stannis' arc is one thing. Butchering Jon's arc on top of that is just more than a little too much to take.

 

Props to D&D on trolling the hell out of people with the Benjen scenes in the "previously on" part. Also I agree the ending scene could have been done better but still it was a solid episode. I just desperately hope the next book comes out before the next season.

 

Yep. That was very well done.

Stannis' defeat was a little unexpected, but once that happened it's not a surprise that Brienne was the one to finish him. Or was she since for some reason they didn't show it happening?

As for Jon. The only way to keep his return a secret is if he's absent from pretty much all of season 6 and have only one scene at the end of it. Or he will have a bigger part, but as Ghost. But if that's it and this is how his adventure ends in the books too then while it sort of fits with the theme of avoiding cliché resolutions and this fate suits him for the most part, it does question what was the point of his secret parentage and other mysteries around him since revealed now they would mean nothing.

 

See, I never really understood it. Does the Night's Watch truly not understand the threat of the White Walkers? Why do they consider Jon a traitor for consorting with wildlings when they know they can't beat them alone? What am I missing?

At this point, I'm rooting for the White Walkers to swoop in and kill literally everyone everywhere.

 

This was another plot line that suffered from having had less time to develop than it did in the books. In the show, it really seems like the rebellion against Jon is a bit senseless, and like they're really, really jumping the gun, whereas in the books:

Spoiler

he announces he's going to abandon his post to go save Jeyne Pool (who he thinks is Arya) in Winterfell after refusing Stannis's offer of legitimization and after many more concessions to the Wildlings, numerous and frustratingly obvious instances of his highest officers looking like they'd like to kill him, manning castles with spearwives, wasting men and ships on Hardhome (which in the books was a total failure), and so on.

You (almost) feel as though he had it coming.

 

There's no 'almost' about it for me.

 

A thousand years of hate and each side killing the other. Olly is probably not the only one having lost friends and family, even though it is "only" sworn brothers for most of them.

Am I the only one who got a smile at the Rains of Castamere in these circonstances?

Arya's line is starting to get interesting, Dorne is as meh as ever, Theon found his balls spine and Stannis got butchered. Nice episode overall. I think it would be too much to ask for both Stannis and Sansa to die, but I can hope.

And now we have a year to wait.

Edit: Oh, and we were wrong about Olly. He didn't stab Jon in the back.