Why? Guns are undeniably useful but they aren't nearly the end all be all of the Dresdenverse.

 

If you shoot a humn being and hit they are very likely to die. If you're a supernatural predator, who sees in the dark and who smells the human hear their heartbeat they can even spot you, you'll still have the edge.

Unless you have very, very specialized equipment guns are almost entirely useless against black court vampires, as Lara proved in Blood Rites.

Lara's one hardcore bitch and those were fledgling BC vampires. If they'd been armed with guns, she'd have died that night. That said, guns generally do a lot of things the black court don't want, namely, draw attention.

 

I'm not sure if i'd call 33% a "very likely" chance to die. That's a scientific, peer reviewed study of people taken to the hospital, but any wound that isn't immediately fatal against a wizard means he can take you (and all your friends) with him if he wants to. Even against normal humans there are things they can do after being shot. I'm not sure guns help a black court vampire as much as they help humans, especially considering you could use blessed bullets or ones inscribed with article of faith (like the cross).

I think people overestimate their speed. Harry was able to nail them with water balloons filled with holy water, after all.

 

As with all species it depends on who you're talking about. After all, not all White Court can kill with a kiss. Newbie Black Court vampires are capable of punching through concrete, running faster than the eye can easily see and survive everything up to and including being smashed into paste by a gravity spell. Master vampires are, if they're smart (and all the dumb ones are dead by this point), one of the deadliest creatures in the Dresdenverse.

The only reason the Black Court are not one of the major powers is because everyone knows their weaknesses. They aren't that scary because, despite all their strength, you can deal with them pretty easily if you come prepared.

Also, don't forget that while the Black Court are individually powerful, they're still vampires. They operate under a hierarchy where the master creates more vampires and turns people into Renfields. A modern Black Court vampire is extremely unlikely to see their enemies with their own eyes, and even if they do it'll never be in a situation that is risky for them.

 

The two situations seem to be mutually exclusive. Either Dresden can hit them with water balloons (which are far from the best thing to throw quickly) or they can move faster than the eye can see. In a general sense, if what people are saying is true, even coming prepared with their weaknesses in mind, there should be NOTHING ANYONE (human) can do against any Black Court Vampire at night, since they should be able to usurp any preparations by instagibbing you before you can pull out your holy relic/water balloon/etc.

Keep in mind that human eyes (especially trained ones) can detect and identify an object at 1/220th of a second, so we can perceive an object in not much time at all. People can hit baseballs (with not terribly inconsistent records) traveling 100 mph after all. The average response time to a visual stimuli is .25 seconds, though that may not be helpful. Tracking an object moving 'faster than the eye can see' would be a pretty nebulous phrase, considering how fast an object is moving has (basically) no relation to your ability to track it from a vantage point. After all, scientists can follow, in real time, the motion of asteroids traveling thousands of miles per hour. Up close, this is significantly harder, but also significantly harder to describe in scientific terms (a quick study seems to show that the best way to see if an object can be perceived is if it travels less than 36 degrees -or about 1/5 of our field of vision- per second).

So i'd take any descriptor (especially one written by a guy who probably has little fight experience, and little to no basis in science) of "traveling faster than the eye can see" with a grain of salt. I've been training for 2 years, and I have many friends who can't track what i'm doing while defending myself against an attacker in my dojo, but i'm downright slow compared to the higher belts and more experienced combatants. Dresden, at the very least, I would consider a skill combatant, but also an unreliable narrator. I haven't read Grave Peril in a little while, but the fact that he was able to react defensively to being attacked means he must be exaggerating how fast they are for dramatic effect.

And finally, in a general sense, if the Black Court was still a large threat, they would be treated like one. Everyone that was a 'big bad' in the Black Court was hunted down and killed off, and people (presumably supernatural people) take care to hunt down anyone who gets big these days to keep them from becoming a threat. Because it takes time to become powerful, a 'modern' black court vampire is not a serious issue. I understand people have a hard on for black court vampires, but people are treating them like they're gods in the flesh and totally unbeatable. It's not a coincidence (and explicitly stated) that the publishing of "Dracula" was "believed" to be the primary cause of the Black Courts fall.

 

You're forgetting that the vampire he hit with a water balloon was sticking its face through his car window and he'd just leant down to pick up Mouse, who was close enough to the balloons for him to grab one and throw.

EDIT: Going to make a big post. Give me time.

 

So when the vampire stuck his face through the window, and he's moving so astronomically fast that no one can see it, why didn't it just continue to attack? Humans aren't even particularly good at reacting to regular, human speed attacks, let alone attacks by supernaturally fast opponents. Unless the vampire was sitting there posing for quite some time, Dresden shouldn't have had time to grab the water balloon, throw it, and still hit his opponent (who is supposed to be supernaturally fast and have superhuman reflexes). Hitting people in the head is REALLY HARD because it moves quickly on humans.

I dug out my books just for this argument. Here is the passage where Mavra (probably the biggest black court baddy we know about) tries to attack Harry with Michael and Susan (Grave Peril, page 370).

We can therefore conclude that Black Court vampires are basically trash against a prepared opponent. Sure, perhaps if they can ambush them, take them unawares without their protective devices then they can kill them quite quickly. But even a powerful black court vampire can't attack into the face of their opponent's object of faith. At range, they would certainly be threat, since the defenses are only for close range in the first place (the smell of garlic repels them, holy symbols with faith create a physical wall to block attacks, etc.) but the passage clearly demonstrates that they don't move to quickly as to be beyond reacting too.

 

Okay. If you don't have the power of a White Council Wizard behind you, Black Court Vampires are something you either run away from or die to. Even if you do have the power to take these things on one-on-one, you're still having to fight something supernaturally fast, strong and tough. When Thomas and Lara are fighting at their very best, they're about as strong/fast/tough as your standard Black Court.

A Master BCV is stronger, tougher and faster than that. One of the Elders, before they get mobbed to death, was powerful enough to be a major threat. All 30 of them together could take on Mab.

But that's not the worst thing about the Black Court. They're strong, they're tough, they're fast, but lots of other things are that too. They're pretty quick in reproducing as well, but that's not a problem on the individual level. The real problem with Black Court is that they're all but impossible to put down permanently. You need garlic, fire or holy water otherwise they'll just keep getting back up, or retreating for a day to heal then coming back as though the previous fight had never happened. Harry crushed one into paste, but it only died once he sprinkled it with garlic sauce.

First, those asteroids may be moving at an incredible speed, but relative to us they're moving quite slowly. You can track one across the sky with a telescope bought at a store easily enough.

Secondly, the Black Court are just that fast. Mavra was able to move like a blur and in It's My Birthday Too a vampire kills a mortal by running past him at high speed and hitting him in the face, breaking his neck (iirc, my memory is a bit foggy on this one). Molly was there and didn't see a thing.

Jim is a practising martial artist with 15 years experience in three different arts, but that doesn't matter because in setting Harry has a shit ton of combat experience. If he says it moves faster than the eye can see, that's because it moves faster than the eye can see. Also, Mavra wasn't attacking during Grave Peril. Harry lobbed a piece of garlic at her and she blurred as she moved away.

They are just that fast.

What exactly have you taken from this conversation to assume that I think the Black Court are a huge threat? I've said multiple times that while they are hideously powerful, they're also completely broken as a court and nation. Their weaknesses are so blatant and obvious that they've become a mere shadow of their former selves. The Black Court were once a power on par with the Sidhe Courts. Now, they're nothing.

 

Blatantly refuted by the passage that comes after that one. Where Mavra is going to attack them, and blurs forward so fast Dresden can't cast a spell, but both Michael and Susan have enough reaction time to put up a defense. A defense which apparently acts like a wall of force that physically stops them from pressing forward even with momentum.

That would be the point though. You bring their weaknesses into play and they're easy enough to destroy that Vanilla humans did a lot of the work.

Hence my point about the 36 degrees/ 1/5 visual field. Speed is relative, but it's canon that one attacking can be reacted to.

Haven't read that one yet, but Molly isn't at Dresden's level. The ability to perceive speed isn't universal, so maybe Molly just sucks in combat. Women aren't as good at tracking motion as men are, as a general rule.

Didn't know that, cool. I don't know how intense and strenuous that training is, but he isn't being consistent with the speed of his attacks from Black Court Vampires if that's true. Mavra is definitely attacking Dresden in the scene I posted, and Michael and Susan (who is vanilla and has minimal training AFAIK) both have time to react. I'm not sure how you're arguing with literal canon, because Dresden admits that she is attacking so fast he coudn't cast a spell. Luckily he has friends who can independently defend themselves against her. Vanilla humans being responsible for devastating the Black Court is also canon.

 

Mavra wasn't attacking Harry because he was covered by guest right. She may be trying to scare him, to taunt him somewhat because he's friends with Michael (who killed one of her Scourges off screen), but until she was certain that the one she was going to attack was not covered by guest right, she couldn't for fear of violating that custom. Mavra is one of the old guard in that way.

Also, vanilla humans may have killed the Black Court, but certainly not in small numbers. Jim states it as being mobs armed with all of the Black Court weaknesses, attacking during the day and with the help of various wizards, saints and whatever other helpful allies they could work up.

The thing I've been trying to stress to you is that on the individual level the Black Court are one of the single biggest threats you can face. If you're not prepared for them you're fucked, completely and utterly. Yet they're so definitely not a threat because everyone knows how to defeat them. When anyone clued in gets an inkling that there are Black Court in town they know precisely how to defend themselves from them and will go out of their way to acquire those defences.

 

It really doesn't sound like she was bluffing or trying to figure out who to attack. Even if she was (unless you're saying she was attacking extra slow to scare them) it's irrelevant because the two members of the party were able to put an effective defense that couldn't be beaten by Mavra alone. She even lost control of her magic spell. She was angry, and it seemed like her attack was impulsive.

Again Jim doesn't make much sense here. Vampires are asleep during the day (low level ones) and apparently humans have an 'at-will' force wall shield against them. I'm not seeing how any group of humans would need a saint, wizard, or other assorted person when all they need to do is hold up a crucifix/ holy object they believe in and walk around freely in a vampire den, shining holy anti-vampire light everywhere? Smelling of garlic that they are naturally averse to, during the day when their target is fast asleep buried in the ground. Any source for that "requiring saints and mobs" bit?

I agree, the black court is full of pushovers when you're ready for them. And everyone is ready for them, at which point they seem to have no effective tools to attack their targets naturally.

 

I think we're agreeing with each other using different wording here, so I'll state my meaning clearly and simply.

Black Court Vampires are hideously powerful as long as they're not faced with one of their many weaknesses. Given that everyone knows what said weaknesses are, they are no longer hideously powerful.

Also, don't mistake my quoting Jim for it being my opinion. It's canonical fact that vanilla human mobs joined forces with wizards, saints and others to take down the Black Court. If only because when you get to Elder levels of power there's a decent chance they'd be able to kill a lot of you, weaknesses be damned.

 

Right, I was looking for that quote to see the context. Obviously yes, taking on the elders should require 'extra power' since they can ignore the paralyzing weaknesses that weaker black court vampires lose to. Regular humans should be able to kill 'lesser' black court vampires without any magical aide at all, and in a small group because their weaknesses are so devastating. That's why I wanted to see the question he responded to, because it's hard to imagine a small 'coven' needing a mob of people when two people could shut down a major black court player like Mavra.

 

Two people couldn't, because while Mavra was pretty easily shut down by garlic, her Renfields weren't.

 

The fact that a black court vampire can move really quickly doesn't necessarily mean their minds work that quickly. They're as suspectible to surprise as any of us. Sure, less and less thing surprise you when you've been dead for decades and millenia, but someone grabbing a water balloon might just do it.

We've seen crucifixes ward off some black court vampires, yeah. Not everyone knows that and not everyone has one ready. Even if you do have one, the black court vampire could pick up a rock and throw it at you or something. Or move around you, as they do with Dresden at one point.

Then there's magic. Then there's whatever powers the true elders of the Black Court had. Elder who together were said to be a power rivalling Mab. I'm not 100% if it's Word of God that all the powers banded together to deal with the Black Court, but I'm fairly certain it is so.

You can't actually use her attack in Michael's presence as an example, since his powers weaken supernatural enemies enough to even the odds.

 

Funny, they (renfields) seem to die to regular bullets like everyone else does. So one person to hold the crucifix, the other to shoot the gun at the renfields doesn't seem impossible (or possibly in a group of more than 2 people but less than 10). I'm not even talking about garlic, but rather the force projection wall that Susan and Michael created in Grave Peril. I'm not sure what your angle is by ignoring this incredibly important weakness, but the light of an object of faith (with the faith of the wearer) is a physical shield against the physical proximity of a black court vampire.

Here's another instance of a human (with a little warning) being faster than a black court vampire trying to attack them. Not enough to escape, but they aren't so impossibly fast to be un-reactable to.

Page 31 Blood Rites

Vampire still gets ahold of him, by his duster's sleeve. He (the vampire) jumps through a security window -already open- into Dresden's car. Dresden fends him off by elbowing him in the face, stunning him, and then reaching into his car for a holy water balloon. So the vampire in question wasn't shocked and didn't know what to do, he was tunnel visioning on attacking Dresden who he was already in close proximity to (which Dresden admits only works because he has magically protected his duster) so no surprise here.

Everyone does know that. That's the point of Dracula being published, was so that everyone would know how to kill Black Courts. There being ways to maneuver around one or two of the weaknesses of the Black Court doesn't mean there aren't ways deal with those attacks either. Oh no you're throwing a rock at me from however far away the light from my crucifix reaches (never mind those of my companions). Good thing you're far away so I can dodge stuff thrown from a distance, and still be protected by my companions.

Michael has strong faith. That may be a power, but it isn't unique to him. Dresden, who has weaker faith, may not be able to use the same weaknesses to the same extent, but a vanilla human hunting vampires might have faith as strong, if not stronger. I've never once seen in the books at any point Michael's 'power weakening' abilities, since at best the sword's abilities are usually laid out to being 'luck' based. Even if Michael did have some kind of magical "ability reducing field" from his sword, Dresden still destroys one with a water balloon from the back seat of his car while actively under attack by a black court vampire.

 

The aura thing is established fact. It's mentioned, among other places, when Dresden fights Nicodemus on the boat.

People don't always carry crucifixes around. The people who'd elect to fight the black court would always carry them if they had any faith to employ, sure, but that would do them absolutely fuck-all good in an ambush, considering how fast the vampires are.

As was seen in the LARP shortstory.

And dodge a thrown object? I don't think the radius of protection is more than, at most, 20 or 30 feet. Weaker vampires are more susceptible. Unless you're The One, you're not dodging that.

The water balloon was a fluke, really. A fledgling vampire went for him, didn't see the coat coming and probably couldn't get through the tiny windows of the beetle quite in time. You also forget that Mavra might not actually have wanted Dresden dead and that the vampire was of her scourge.

 

You keep saying "how fast they are" but there are numerous examples of them not being fast enough to keep a human being from reacting at all. After which point, the object of faith seems to be a pretty effective defense. I don't have all the side-story books, so I can't point to a specific place where humans who were actively hunting a black court vampire (or any supernatural force) were completely caught flatfooted and got destroyed by a black court vampire, but I can (and have) shown several places where a little warning and forethought turned a REALLY BAD situation into a win for the good guys.

I'm not seeing a similar level of proof for 'humans needed saints/wizards to kill black court covens' nor the 'too fast to react' camp of black court fanboyism. Instead you rely on excuses like "oh well they didn't really mean it" even though they apparently tried quite hard to commit to their goals. The 'fledging' (you're assuming) vampire in Blood Rites attacked so fast and so furiously that Thomas couldn't even react (the first water balloon made him retreat and he didn't decide to re-engage, he is explicitly part of Mavra's scourge, and was at least 2 years ago). Mavra's assault was so swift that Dresden couldn't even get a spell off, but of course they weren't trying very hard.

20-30 feet? That's between half to one third the distance from home base to the pitcher's mound. If someone can hit a ball with a bat at that distance, you REALLY think there's no way you could dodge a projectile you can see coming in a straight line?

 

Here is the WoJ on the subject you are all going in circles around:

 

Yeah. I looked up how fast a fastball is thrown. A hundred miles per hour. A black court vampire can literally lift a car over their head and throw it at you. I'm fairly certain you won't be dodging something thrown that hard and fast.

Then there's the difference between reacting and reacting appropriately to a situation.

But yes, if all of humanity became aware of the black court and banded together, we'd utterly destroy them. It would be bloody, but we'd win, because the game is stacked in our favour. As such the black court is careful. They tried an overt powerplay once and it failed.

Also... Black court fanboyism? I have no words for how stupid that statement is, I really don't.