OK let's leave Lockhart aside then.

In canon we don't see magical knowledge being used extensively in combat. We saw some with Voldy vs. Albus but Voldemorts go to is the AK one of the most well known spells. That isn't exactly leveraging knowledge.

As far as magic being Academic - well sure in part. But I do think accuracy might correlate strongly to hand-eye coordination. Since wand motions are a thing if you are also quite fast with your hands you might have an edge on someone slower.

To answer your question - yes I think Harry is stronger than the Death Eaters. In casting specific Unforgivables I think the Death Eaters are better because they have had far more practice. Yes having the certain mindset *matters* but that is only for about four spells in all of canon.

If it was based on knowledge and skill how in the world do Death Eaters ever lose in a fight against Harry and co? 7th book shows two veteran Death Eaters losing. Why would this be? My answer would be that Harry is naturally more powerful since he isn't more knowledgeable and he shouldn't be more skilled. His training was sub-par and his knowledge would be fraction of what the Death Eaters would have. Magical cores make it work though. Stronger inherent magical power allows school age children to fight Death Eaters. Otherwise it should be a stomp for the bad guys.

 

When you think about it, it kinda makes sense that people out of school become less magically skilled. While they're at Hogwarts, they're immersed in the shit: constantly practicing their charms, constantly transfiguring. In the case of Harry and his squad, constantly pressing themselves against the dark arts.

It's similar to us. I know that I'd need to brush up on my Calculus if I up and decided to learn more advanced math. I'm pretty decent at it, but there's a helluva lot I've forgotten since I was in school.

Those Death Eaters, between the first and second conflicts had what, 14 years? of not being terrorists, well practiced in hurling around death. Or even worse, 14 years of being subject to the Dementors.

 

You make a compelling point but why then are Aurors such chumps? I don't think anyone seriously suggests Dawlish stomps on Potter despite being one of the elite aurors who had three years of specialized training after successfully grabbing a pile of NEWTs.

You can make the argument that the students of Hogwarts > Death Eaters who were in prison for awhile but I don't think that was the intent of the author or what most people took from the text. Harry + Hermione (and Ron too I guess) > Death Eaters (outside specific ones like Bellatrix) seems likely. What is the difference? We know the Death Eaters have more knowledge. Presumably they would be skilled. How do under-trained not yet adults win? Magical cores are your answer.

 

Magical cores don't explain anything. They're just a cheap way of telling us that a character is powerful rather than doing it right and showing us character development.

https://forums.darklordpotter.net/showpost.php?p=900528&postcount=144 This post as well as this one https://forums.darklordpotter.net/showpost.php?p=900609&postcount=145 explain my feelings on age/experience in connection to magic skill.

Confidence and intent appear to be important. James, Snape, Dumbledore, and Riddle were all arrogance and little to no incompetence. In contrast, Neville was all incompetence and no arrogance. He didn't show any skill until OOTP with Harry teaching him and Bellatrix breaking out. Whenever Harry knew he could perform a spell, he did it quite effectively. The Patronus Charm is a good example of this. For all her intelligence and knowledge of theory, Hermione could not make her broomstick jump into her hand.

Intent. You have to mean it; you have to want it. Harry's bout of wandless magic in OOTP is a good example of this. Accidental magic has a lot of intent behind it.

Understanding. The war was won because a lazy 17 year old could grasp a few concepts that a 70 year old prodigy could not. Dumbledore and Harry both understood that magic went beyond what was written in books and beyond what came out of one's wand.

Speaking of wands. I feel they are the most important things to consider when discussing power and skill. From JKR/Pottermore/canon we know wands are semi-sentient. The wand chooses the wizard after all. We also know that both the wood and core can play a significant part in what a wizard can do. For the most part, any wand can perform any piece of magic, but some cores, woods, and combinations of both can determine how powerful the magic performed is.

According to Pottermore, the unicorn core is the least volatile, the most loyal, and the least powerful of the three big cores. They're the most difficult to turn to the dark arts and can actually cease to work. Dragon heartstrings can produce the most powerful spells, are the least loyal, the easiest to turn to the dark arts, and can cause the most accidents. Phoenix feathers can perform the greatest range of magic, they're the hardest to win over, and the most independent.

Certain wand woods actually have quirks. Black walnuts work as long as the owner does not practice self-deception. Dogwood wands can't produce non-verbal magic. Ash wood wands are only loyal to their original master.

Harry's wand, as we know, is holly and phoenix. We also know that JKR gave Harry holly because tradition has it that it repels evil. It's no coincidence that Harry's best subject is DADA and his best spells are protective spells. Holly gave him a boost in DADA and the phoenix feather was a tool for him to achieve more. Voldemort's wand is connected to death, resurrection, and poison, but, once again, the phoenix feather allowed him to go further. McGonagall and James had wands that gave them advantages in Transfiguration. The same with Lily in charms. We also know that the Elder Wand, the most powerful wand, could repair wand while others could not.

OP also says that the students of Hogwarts, in particular Harry, Hermione, and Ron, were better than the Death Eaters. I disagree. Harry never actually goes toe to toe with a Death Eater except for Snape and he gets knocked down. I think it's forgotten that the Death Eaters had orders not to harm Harry. Hermione would be dead had Dolohov said the spell aloud. I think Ron is the only one to face the opposition alone and succeed. Even then I don't think they were legitimate Death Eaters. That's not to say that those three, and Harry in particular, weren't above their peers. Harry would wipe the floor with any student in Hogwarts. He might have been able to last against the likes of Bill, Tonks, and Charlie, but anyone older? I doubt it.

 

A bit of searching and I'm done responding by my own recollection.

I invoke the power of Taure to disabuse you of your notions of magical cores, Sau. Good read, reminded me of some stuff I'd been hazy on or forgotten about(like wand attributes).

 

This thread isn't a subtle reference to drugs? Boring.

 

Thanks for the link. The author makes some compelling points however I think at times there is a bit of a stretch.

Why do we assume fake Moody is a reliable narrator in this instance? I'm pretty sure plenty of younger kids could use the Killing Curse, as children are more emotive than adults it should be far easier for them to generate the necessary hate.

That's quite silly. "I know more about Gamps Law so I can cast a better Stunning Spell."

In any event it is an impressive piece of head canon and like magical cores it can be used to explain some of the... interesting things that happen in the HP novels. I don't see how it disproves it.

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Varying degrees of magical strength is why it is an elegant solution. Otherwise we are left confused as to why Harry is able to do things better than 'the average wizard' despite having less education and knowledge than the average wizard. He's unique, he has an inborn strength to do magic that others don't have.

That is the first step which I'm honestly surprised people have a hard time with. I'd think the second step which is that the use of magic can exhaust someone would be the sticking point.

 

Exactly what are you referring to when you say he does things better than the average wizard?



Sidenote: I hate myself for getting involved in this thread

 

The average wizard has problems with shield charms. The average wizard has problems with Patronus (let alone using it to send dozens away).

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Because piano playing is purely a skill. If someone went to piano playing school for 7 years than had 3 years of specialized instruction and then a career playing piano I would expect them to be better at piano than someone with 3 years of playing school. Harry is simply a better wizard and it cannot be accounted for based on his knowledge. Magical cores could fit for that reason.

I doubt JKR intends for magical cores to exist. I doubt they cares at all about much of the mechanics of spell casting. They were an entertaining means to an end in her wonderful set of books. For people who like the fandom and like to know how things *work* something needs to be added to what JKR has published to make logical sense of the various disparities in magical ability.

 

Has the average wizard practiced those spells anywhere near as much as Harry has? He spent months have 1 on 1 lessons with Lupin to learn the Patronus, and still sometimes has troubles with it. And he spent months learning and practicing new spells, including the shield charm, before the 3rd Triwizard task?

The average wizard probably never has to learn or use the Patronus and probably never uses the shield charm, except for maybe in a DADA lesson. That's not Harry being born better at those things, it's Harry practicing those skills and getting very good at them.

The only skill that Harry is actually good at with seemingly no work is flying, I somehow doubt that's because of his humongous magical core.

 

For the first one, the Gamp's Law would be useless when using a stunning spell, therefore wherever the theory was internalized would remain untouched. Actually, since Voldemort had all his memories from life even as a 'ghost', it wouldn't be a stretch to think that all the understanding acquired by a wizard in life is stored in the soul, but I digress.

About Harry, let's make things clear. He has natural talent in DADA and Dueling, willpower greater than Voldemort and a lot of practice. You want to quantify his prowess, kinda like an IQ test, because for some reason you don't think his results could only be summed up by talent, will and effort alone, that he has some inborn advantage over the average wizard.

To be honest, I think you're trolling everyone here by being deliberately obtuse, but I'll bite.

Harry isn't a super wizard, that's a fact. Way better than average, but not extraordinary outside flying and DADA. He innately understands how to ride a broom, but can he go faster than Malfoy? Because if this skill implied the using of magical power, the more one had the better. Yet, when they play one against another, the main factor is that Harry is more skilled than Malfoy , he can't break the speed of sound with his uber magical core.

Also, his skill in DADA isn't that mysterious. At first his shield was shit, he practiced, he improved. How often do you think a paper pusher in the ministry, a cook, anyone that doesn't have to practice Dueling skills uses the shield charm? Naturally their shield won't be as strong as an Auror's, who casts it religiously, if they can cast it at all.

We can also assume that willpower counts when shaping the shield. Harry had Voldemort beat in that department. He's unusual, the average person wouldn't be able to muster so much will, therefore his spell gets better than his initial flimsy one, that could barely hold itself together.

Again, practice, will and inate understanding on the subject. It doesn't mean his shield is more powerful, that word causes this exact misunderstanding, it means his shield is better.

 

1. We have never seen a wizard become tired from casting a spell (the exhaustion Harry feels in his Patronus lessons is from the effects of the Dementor, not the casting of the spell, as can be seen from his lack of exhaustion in later instances of casting the spell).

2. We have never seen a wizard run out of magic, despite having seen extended periods of intense spell casting.

The term "Magical core" implies a limitation within each wizard, a set, finite amount of magical energy at their disposal to dispense with each spell cast. The above 1. & 2. debunk this.

14. Knowing and understanding magical theory allows you to cast more advanced spells, and makes spell casting easier (Hermione’s magical ability resulting from study).

A first year student could not successfully pull off a seventh year transfiguration due to a lack of understanding of the properties involved.

13. Another external component affecting the result of magic is the wand a wizard is using, if they are using a wand. Some wands are more powerful than others (from 21). Some wands are better at certain types of magic than others (from 20).

20. Wands have predispositions to perform well in certain areas of magic. (Ollivander in PS, Pottermore on wands)

Because Bellatrix proves the point in Year 5 when Harry tries to Crucio her.

Quoting the wikia,
For example, Harry Potter was unable to effectively cast the Cruciatus Curse on Bellatrix Lestrange in 1996. Despite being furious with her for her murder of his godfather, he lacked the desire to cause pain for its own sake. Harry's "righteous anger" only inflicted a brief moment of pain on her.[3]

Barring Tom Riddle, the majority of the children of Hogwarts have never been presented as so emotionally bent that they could successfully invest in the casting of Avada Kedavra.

No, we really, truly are not. He practices. He devotes his time to DADA. He's lazy in subjects that bore him(History) but attentive in most otherwise, and he has a wand well suited to his investments.

15. Practice improves your ability to cast a spell (Harry’s practice of the summoning charm in GoF).

19. A matched wand reflects a wizard’s character, and will almost always provide a wizard with the best results (Ollivander in PS)

You, sir, are a troll. In the face of multiple points provided between canon and extrapolations therein you continue to stubbornly insist that you are correct with all the certainty of a child in the face of authority. The magical core theory does not hold up under scrutiny despite your hamfisted attempts to say otherwise.

And with that, I'm done. Any further discussion with you over the subject is going to be tantamount to this; you are convinced in the matter that Harry Potter utilizes a system of magical cores to explain the usage of magic and refuse to be swayed. I, as with many others, disagree on this front.

So, c'est la vie, you mewling quim.

 

Harry Potter is not Naruto. I can see how you might be confused by this. Magic is not, in fact, chakra. There are no 'magic reserves'. It's not chakra, it's not mana, it's not furyoku, it doesn't stem from an internal well that can run dry if overused.

Harry Potter is not an anime. If you want to use that retarded plot device and actually enjoy reading it, no one's stopping you. But don't try to defend whether it fits with canon. It doesn't.

 

This entire argument has been a constant source of pain for me when trying to find new stories to read. I'm firmly on the side that there are no magical cores in the Harry Potter universe and it bugs me to no end when the turn up in stories. Almost as much as when I see the phrase "the words and wand motions don't matter" I like to see magic as the light of the soul shaped by the word, everyones soul is infinite. As far as I can tell most people use the magic core concept as a means of limiting their characters and adding false tension for no reason. Like when people write a cross over and suddenly the Harry Potter magic can't do loads of things or is just flimsy illusion so that what ever they have crossed it with is more powerful.

 

You want to know why Voldemort is "definitely more powerful than average Joe". It's not because of his non-existent magical core being bigger and stronger than anyone else. It's because he's obsessed with power. He traveled the world trying to learn more about magic than anyone else. He reinvented the spell to split his own soul. He opened the Chamber of Secrets at 16 when no one had ever find it before. He's a genius and he's obsessed; a dangerous combination when you're a psychopath wizard on a path to world domination.

You want to know why Harry is better at Shield Charm than the average population? That one is fairly simple, I don't know how old you are, but it's been about six years since I've actually done any math more complex than basic arithmetic and I'm pretty sure I can barely remember how to do trigonometry; do you know why? Because I don't have to use it in day to day life.

Now, you're asking about Aurors. Well, I don't really see what your point is there. First of all, Auror are pretty much investigators foremost. Hit Wizards seems to be the one dispatched to arrest criminals (PoA - Arresting Sirius) if I remember correctly.

Secondly, we have seen Auror come to the rescue of Harry & Co. in the ministry in OotP and handle the situation much better. I think the only time we see Harry really being better than Aurors is during DH when the ministry is overthrown by Voldemort who replaces or eliminate people who are not complying with his agenda. I'm assuming a lot of the competent Aurors would never work for Voldemort and have either died fighting the coup or seek refuge elsewhere. A great many of those left probably weren't trying very hard too. We see Harry as being better than Snatchers, which are basically initiate Death Eaters (hell wasn't Stan Sturpike one of those or something? The guy who used to be the crier in the knight bus? Yeah, that guy has clearly been fighting for his life in recent years).

Lastly, Harry knows Voldemort is after him since he's eleven years old and has faced a multiple of dangerous situations which have only honed his reflex and experience in the face of danger. By the time he reaches his seventh year, he's almost been killed by Quirrel (Luck saved him), a basilisk (luck saved him, again), a mass murderer and a werewolf, the whole triwizard tournament and Voldemort toying with him (Voldemort overconfidence saved him there and his own strength of conviction in his parents), practice dueling the whole year and fought a group of death eathers (the only fact they are alive was because Voldemort didn't want Harry killed, many of his friends almost did) and finally fought Snape and got his ass handed to him.

So yeah, Harry really is an average wizard who has been thrown into life or death situation for so long that he's better than most at extracting himself from them. Much like a soldier who's experience war before will keep his wits with him when facing a gun fight whereas average Joe will probably panic and end up being killed.

It has nothing to do with Magical Core.

 

The average muggle has problems with juggling. The average muggle has problems clearing legible calligraphy. The average muggle has a hard time playing a flute.

The average wizard has zero reason to ever learn a shield charm or Patronus spell, beyond maybe getting it right once for the OWLs and then promptly forgetting how they did it. The average wizard who did learn such things would be the equivalent of some 'Murican gun nut who keeps a loaded and illegally modified M16 under their bed, and a Colt under their pillow.

 

Isn't that the average 'murican though?