I have a question.

Why is it that every time a moderately dark/skilled/independent Harry gets transported to another world in a crossover fic, his power and brand of magic suddenly become useless and he has to learn the magic of the world he's in, which is, coincidentally, infinitely better/more powerful/versatile/orgasmic?

I'm getting seriously tired of this. Harry *always* loses/breaks his wand, Harry *always* has to learn even the most basic of basics from others (who usually treat him like a child because of his lack of power), and Harry, no matter how dark or independent he was in the Potterverse, is almost always unable to stand by himself in the new world.

Why this? Why is Harry's brand of magic (which can be cast quickly, silently, and with minimum loss of energy, while still displaying the ability to perform feats of great power and possessing an impressive repertoire of potions and spells) always inferior? Why is Harry's wand always a "crutch" instead of the weapon it truly is? And more importantly, why can't Harry remain independent in the new world he's been thrown into?

 

Because the authors don't know how to balance, they do almost no-planning ahead of time.

Which results in it not meshing very well.

Also it seems like they think they can come up with a better version of magic as well. Like being able to kill people with two words isn't impressive. Or put them in an insane amount of pain/ control completly with one is just a walk in the park.

 

I'm not sure why most crossovers make the system of magic in the Potterverse weaker than some other system of magic, other than the author wants to use something different. As for the Potterverse "possessing an impressive repertoire of potions and spells" - this could be true, but is Harry not very knowledgeable in potion making and he wouldn't be able to get the proper ingredients to make them. He also doesn't have much of a repertoire of spells that we know of.

 

Defying Fate: Journey of the Offworlder had harry's magic be stronger than the local magics but the local magic was apparently easier to use cause it didn't sap his magical strength like Earth magic did.

 

You know what would be cool? Harry Traveling to another world, where his magic is much more superior, or even Godly. He basks in the power of being the strongest of them all. Then he somehow lands back in his own world, and he craves power, and tries to take over the wizarding world. He would be power-hungy, and gives a reason for Harry to become a Dark Lord or some shit like that.

 

Because it requires thinking, which isn't something that all that many people on net seem all that capable of doing. I do agree that is getting rather annoying especially when you consider that except for the magic systems of Type-Moon, Ars Magica, and Mage the Ascension/Awakening the magic used Harry Potter universe happens to be one of more versatile and moldable systems that I've seen.

Really I think a good portion of the thinking comes from the fact that most people don't consider the fact that 99% of the magic that we see done in Hpverse is either magic that they're learning in school or everyday household charms. The few times that we've gotten to some of the magic in the background or see Dumbledore cast spells, they've done things that only that usually only the upper level characters from other series could do.

One worst type of crossovers that have been getting on my mind are the Dungeons&Dragons crossovers where the magic used in D&D is always far more powerful and deadly then anything that can be found Hpverse and even tend to have the lowest level spells surpassing the strongest magic that Hpverse wizards use.

While often forgetting that one of the major weakness of D&D magic when compared to Hpverse magic in that the most of it requires a mixture of chanting and using various material components with that take from around half a minute to several minutes to cast (not to mention the need for rare components that tend to be both hard to get and expensive needed to cast said spells) while an Hpverse wizard simply needs to make a few motions with their wand and say a word or two and are done.

 

I think part of that stems from the fact that the people writing those kinds of stories probably have 53rd level Paladin/Magic user (of some sort)/Assassin Half-drow/half orc PCs who is a friendly vampire with just a touch of lycanthropy.

If you've had experience playing under a DM who doesn't run a 'Monty Hall' type campaign, it is easier to see the weakness inherent in the D&D magic system. I know when I run a game, I time the magic users spell attempts. In my games, straight magic user parties don't last too long...they tend to get eaten before they actually cast very many spells. The best parties consist of a mix of characters and a bit of planning...

Although, the artifacts in D&D do tend to make up for the speed of spell casting...most of the magical items tend to be of the 'point and shoot' nature (excepting, of course, the straight out bonuses on magical weapons).

 

And yet, if the series being crossed with HP happens to have a wise old wizard, it's always: "up to this point, Harry had thought Dumbledore to be the most powerful wizard alive, but this man looked like he could be a match for Dumbledore, if not outright defeat him..." or some other variant of that phrase.

I think it's mainly to show the novelty of the new people Harry's meeting, but IMO, that could be done in many other ways, such as hightlighting their appearance, history, personality, etc.

 

I think its one thing that we have no idea about in HP magic. Area of effect spells. While HP magic is very versitile, and the upper level users such as Dumbledore and Voldemort can do things that are ver yimpressive, the magic we see in schools seems to be of the variety that 'I shoot red lights at you, you shoot green lights at me'. In other words they seem to effect only one person.

However many other magic systems seem to be based on a mixture of have heave use of 'everybody in twenty feet catches on fire' or something.

That and those writers generally, though not always, dont have planning skills.

As for why people feel that a wand is a crutch,, it has something to do with the fact that if your wand is taken away, unless you are ungodly powerful and have mastered wandless magic, your pretty much screwed in HP (I.e. if you wake up in a cell without your wand, how are you going to get out). Where magic systems from some of the other shows allow the mage to easly and with no trouble get out himself.

'And I agree abou the D&D, while the Magic there is very powerful at the higher levels, it does need reare spell components.

 

Err... almost all of the battle type spells are cast in about six seconds

As for the mats, its not that bad, but yeah, even the cheap stuff could be annoying. Like finding the bat guano for a fireball might be a bit of a pain.

 

Also remember that it is possible to cast the spell sans material, however when preparing it earlier the rank of the spell increases by one. (so a third level spell would be considered a fourth level spell for all intents and purposes if it is prepared sans material. Or at least thats How I think it works. I would assume that it is similar to how a HP wizard can, with training, cast a spell silently, its just harder to do.

 

QFT. Have you seen some of the shit you can do as a level 32 sorceror (In Neverwinter Nights)? Seriously. You can summon a freaking DEMON, or STOP TIME, or summon a BANSHEE that kills anything that fails its constitution saving throw. Or summon a meteor storm. Or shoot fireballs from your fingertips. The list goes on and on.

EDIT: Forgot to explain. Sorcerors don't need materials or reagents. They just have to memorize a copy of a spell to use it. Example: Bob the Sorceror memorizes 3 copies of Chromatic Spray (random status effects based on saving throw). He can cast it three times before he has to rest.

 

I'm pretty sure Stalicon hit the nail on the head there.

The reason, to me, seems quite simple: The author needs a way to introduce conflict. Even the stupidest of authors knows that if Harry has nothing to make life even slightly difficult for him, then the story's gonna be boring.

But in trying to introduce this conflict, they go way overboard. For instance, lets say Harry goes back in time to the Marauder's era. What happens if he tells MWPP + Lily exactly who he is? Hugs and kisses will follow, and that's hardly entertaining, past a point. On the other hand, what could happen is that MWPP + Lily are deathly scared of him, are pissed that he's the reason that they die, or before they even know him, take a dislike to him because of the person he is.

So this is what the author faces:

Choice 1: Hugs and kisses, farts smell like marshmallows and rainbows, and everyone is oh-so-happy.

Choice 2: Make it so Harry just experienced trauma before coming to the past. Make it so that all his friends are dead. Make it so MWPP + Lily don't like him. Make it so that he doesn't like them. Make Voldemort come back in time and make HP's life a living hell again.

There are just so many options, that out of pure confusion as to which would prove to be the best plot-design, the author throws in a mish-mash of the above. Or, on the other hand, the author could use a very different reasoning for involving many/all of the above...perhaps, by showing Harry standing up to, and eventually defeating all these 'trials and tribulations', they're trying to show how strong he is?

Basically, though, Stalicon is right. It's probably a result of bad planning, and bad cases of indecision that lead to the inclusion of far too many aspects in the story.

 

True, but I find it doubtful that the wizarding world at _some_ point didn't have said type of spells. Really the reason that I don't see most wizards using such spells is that A) they seem to have something of dueler mentality, B) wizards are lazy. After all such spells tend to have a wide verity of ways to be defended against and unless your right on ground zero you tend to have a chance of surviving, and finally C) the unforgivables (or more importantly the killing curse). Why spend the time casting a spell that has a high chance of hitting several of your allies or spend the time trying to figure out if the creature or wizard in front of you will be resident to your spell when you have three spells that are not only incredibly hard to defend against but nearly effective all living beings.

The killing curse is even worse when you consider the simple and brutal fact that it doesn’t really seem to matter where it hits you or even it just grazes. Your dead. No saving throws, no chance of merely feeling woozy or of getting up again, unless you go and put a physical object (or a person) in front of you. And it works on nearly _everything_, a few rare being might be able to survive it but they'll certainly feel it. There’s no need to worry about a person hit by it getting up when your back is turned and can be cast quickly and without the need for any complicated movement.

Apparition or portkey.

But really except for those that use magic in Palladium, Ars Magica, and Wheel of Time almost all magic users are pretty much tied to using something to perform their magic. The majority of magic users in D&D's would be pretty much screwed if anything where to happen to their spellbook or material components for example.

Aensland

Check the casting time, I think you're confusing real-time with game time. Most battle type spells take several turns while quite a number of the more powerful ones can take up to ten minutes to get done.

MrINBN

Yes, I own a large number of D&D books. And a Hpverse wizard can cast a curse that cannot be magically blocked and will kill whatever it touches and with a flick of their wand set their enemies ablaze. What pisses me off is that most writers’ don’t seem realize that both systems have things in them that they tend to better in the other and are equally powerful in their own. Each has a number of advantages and disadvantages, however most writers seem to just pay attention of the advantages in the series that they’re bringing over and are only willing to mention the bad points in Hpverse magic.

Yes there are magics in D&D's that outclass some of the things in Hpverse and spells that would leave a Hpverse wizard screaming wtf or that’s impossible and probably suffering a brain freeze. But there are also magics in Hpverse that outclass some of the things in D&D and spells that would leave the D&D's magic user suffering from the exact same problem.

 

A few simple answers to Ray's questions....

If Harry is in a foreign environment, then he can't get by with the knowledge of his native realm. Especially in a realm that has "rules of magic" that are completely different than what Harry is schooled in. The question is, why would Harry's version of magic work AT ALL in another realm. Or another realms magic work in the HPverse?

As for losing/breaking of Harry's wand...its a slightly stronger than normal stick. It is not impervious to damage or harm. In a separate realm, Harry has few options for building a new one that would work the same way. That and it is a small item that would be easily lost or stolen.

How CAN Harry remain independent in a realm he has little to no knowledge of. He literally has no survival skills in case something happens. He will be a corpse in a short time due to lack of knowledge of how things work. And that is not even mentioning the differences in language.

As for why HPverse magic is considered week...it depends on what you compare it too. In some of the anime crossovers, you have series like "Slayers" and "Bastard!" that have spells that can literally wipe out large cities in a single attack. Compared to that...the killing curse looks rather pathetic. The fact it is a rather versatile form of magic is usually ignored.

 

AoE: From HPL:

Although the explosion might have reacquired the destruction of hes wand he was capable of killing a street full of muggles while he escaped from Sirius. And this also brings me to my second point wizards are damn hard to kill. Loosing body parts (splinching) cant even kill a wizard so...

And Ive been thinking about Apparition and Portkey. Apparation is a rather difficult spell. Without concentration things can go really wrong so it cant be done in the heat of a battle. (Personally I think thats how Moody lost hes leg) The Portkey on the other hand seems to connect two points in space, so it can be used in the same location it was made.(Again just a hypothesis)

On the Avada Kedavra, I distinctly remember something about a nosebleed.

 

Not quite true, if you're going by D&D rules.

Sorcerors *do* still require materials to cast the spells. The difference from Wizards is that while wizards may have more spells to choose from in their spellbook, unlike Wizards, Sorcerors have no spell book, and can cast any spell they know whenever they want, provided they have the spell slot for it.

Wizards, on the other hand, need to prepare their spells at the beginning of the day, potentially leading to the following conversation during a fight with something big and nasty:

"Hah, I can beat you easily with my Overpowered Spell Of Doom(TM)"
"Go on then, prove it."
"I can't. I don't have it prepared today. How about tomorrow?"

[EDIT] Whoops...I really have to start reading *everything* before posting. that's twice now I've missed something important. [/EDIT]

 

Bleh.

GaelicDragon, this discussion died two months ago before you resurrected it here. It appears there are still people with opinions on the subject, and two months isn't the ugliest of necros, but still. In the future try to stick to recent and relevant conversations rather than restarting old ones long since forgotten.

But to add my two cents, I'll say generalizing about how Harry acts in crossovers is as useful as generalizing about how Harry acts in romance fics. It's all about whether a capable author can make something worth reading.

The problem is fans of other sci-fi/fantasy worlds bringing in the HP world. You end up with two different universes each with their own measures of power or evil. If you can't strike a balance between them you won't interest fans of either fandom. And too often you only interest fans of one of them, whether it's Star Wars fans angered by your belittlement of the Force, or Harry Potter fans angered by your belittlement of Dark Magic. As Harry Potter fans, we remember the ones that ruin the HP world and system, but there are lots where the other fandoms get ruined just as badly (as any Buffy or LOTR fan may tell you about some of the wretched HP crossovers).

 

This is exactly what I planned to do in my fic. Harry has ancient powers, yes. Does that make him almighty? No.

Ancient powers (from SG1) are shown as being very unstructured. For some things it's better to use ancient powers, e.g. healing, telekinesis, telepathy, but for most it's much better to use the HP 'verse.

This also helps if Harry gets captured, a little telekinesis can go a long way.