Just something I want to get done before doing the reading @Gemma and I'd like your input on.

Part of the reason that I think Fonti is town I guess, is based on what we know of how mafia have played this game so far. I fully believe that Cuth/Amy/Fonti would have made the Akina shot N1, trying to prevent a replacement and gamestate to change. And I'll even maybe believe that the same team would have shot at me N2, but I feel like shooting at me N3 there is incredibly risky as scum, and you do so knowing that if there's another doc save still around the odds of it being on me are very high, and a doc save there gives town an extra msyeet, it's a huge risk to take there if the team still alive is Amy/Fonti. Fonti would think she's got me super pocketed there, and Fonti was the person mostly suggesting to go Amy over Tom before we even had JOAT claims or got to that day. Fonti as scum is pretty much playing D2/D3 onward with the intention of her endgaming alone at F3, and well, she's definitely capable of that, but I think she knows there'd be a lot of lolparanoia stuff that'd get her yeeted at some point.

I feel like a few things would have happened here differently if she's scum I guess, and it's possible I get big pie on my face, but I think she'd have got Cuth to fake claim JOAT knowing that it's the optimal move since it directs the JOATs actions that night and outs them the next day. I think she'd have shot at a PR read at some point during the game, and that hasn't happened. And I feel like she'd be less shutting down misyeets on players during the game, while I feel like she's done a bit today for instance if she's mafia. If she's mafia the way she's playing today is going to make it a real hard grind for her to win this as scum, and to backflip on some of the stances she's stated today.

My mind might change when I've finished doing the reading, but I definitely wouldn't be voting her today, and I'd struggle to see a world where I do tomorrow. But if this does go to a F3 and it's not Vaimes here and she's not worked out who it is and yeeted them tomorrow I wouldn't be too upset if the F3 ended up being like her vs Dels, or her vs Cobalt (ideally it doesn't get to this) in terms of who gets yeeted there.

 

If we have time later I could probably benefit from some back and forth about Cobalt/Amy and how that world pieces together, there were a lot of Amy->Cobalt things in my reread of her that were /weird/ but I wasn't ultimately sure how I felt about them.

 

You'll need to click this link to see the post it's in response to (It's a Vaimes post) but want to now if it does anything for anyone.

Just thought I'd post this because it is pretty amusing now.

 

Heh.

 

This read isn't how scum state a read on a partner, imo.

 

Same with this.

Wacos town, #lockitin.

 

Yeah I've been thinking over this too during my Cuth/Amy rereads, it's definitely not fonti's preferred route and does point away from wolf!fonti worlds I think.

I'm definitely not heading towards a fonti vote today either but I could honestly see myself voting her over Cobalt in some cases, is why I want to air all this with you today so that I'm not alone tomorrow with all these unresolved fonti thoughts and nothing to really ground myself. And yes maybe the game just ends today and it was all pointless but I'm not about counting on that.

 

Am taking a break to spend some time with Claire, will be back in an hour and I'll keep rereading then.

 

Agree, saw both the same way.

 

That works, just about to dive into fonti.

 

You compared my struggling to reconcile thread consensus with my tom read and looking at the gamestate to Von's lack of those things, but Von is more likely to not do those things because he's Von and holding us to the same standards will always have Von come out looking like a wolf. I don't see how it's useful to compare him to me pretty much ever. I get what you're saying about Von just seeing tom being towny, and yes I think that's approximately what would've been happening in his brain as a wolf, but in the world where he's a villager, what would Von have done differently?

Von never "let Amy go down while trying to get some towncred." By towncred you're referring to Von's tom read / vote on Amy, yes? I think you have to twist the argument to make him out to have been doing that, she was never really at risk until she was confirmed wolf, which he would know she would be if he was her partner, and once she is there's obviously no "letting her" go down. Also, I don't think your telling of the events is accurate, Von was just letting tom go down, he didn't defend tom in any way that mattered. So yeah you're right with the second paragraph especially I don't get your take at all.

 

Cool, never yeeting Waco.

 

Thumbsup

I'm at a "Yeet Vaimes->Cobalt and if the games somehow not over work out who it is in Dels/Fonti" spot.

I think this looks quite good for Fonti, in that it's attacking/focusing on things on Amy at a time when it looked highly likely Cuth was going down, and being one of the main/few people to focus on them then. I think the way that Fonti ended up with this Amy/Cobalt theory about them being team in JoaT^2 15er - A Mafia Game feels like a thought process/action that flows really nicely. And it's a weird thing for Scum!Fonti to be doing at that time. Like Cuth (partner #1) is getting run up and focused on, she's voting him, and then Amy (partner #2) votes the counterwagon (Jarizok) and she attacks Amy for it, and then starts rereading and finding logic that ties Amy/Cobalt together. Like all of this at best gets her 1 msyeet in Cobalt? And then she doesn't even push that through, comes out later in the game (today) with him as a town read. If she's doing this as scum, it's with the intention of endgaming solo pretty much, and I feel like with a scum team of Amy/Cuth/Fonti they'd be aiming a bit higher than that.

 

This to Cuth feels like a pretty good look for Fonti.

 

I see you posting, not going to read any of it until I'm finished my read just letting you know I'm here, should be done soonish.

 

This was during the last minute or two at the frantic EoD2, it's Dels talking about worlds and things that might mean Jaris not mafia, or it being w/w or not. I don't think this reaction from Amy happens like this to a partner there.

 

I think my biggest reget this game is not going to bat for Jari and letting him get yeeted over Cuth.

 

EoD2 and EoD4 were both sort of nightmare results, lots of information to reread for alignment indicative information and stuff, but Cuth should probably have died over Jari always then. And Rubicon dying in retrospect was pretty bad and definitely largely my fault of tunneling into the Tom/X world. I could have cleared Rubicon today (I mean I am for Waco I guess, so Waco dying wouldn't have been any better), and I probably should have taken a "Yeet outside the claims" stance a lot harder, and then pushed for yeeting in the Amy world since the Tom worlds were just so tiny but can't change that now.

I'm all caught up. I don't think I'm leaving a big wall on why Dels or Fonti are town, but I do think both are.

From rereading I don't really come out with a heap of changes other than Waco becomes a bet the game strong town read, and I'm really thinking and hoping this ends with a Vaimesscum yeet and that you (or me) aren't having to deal with this tomorrow. I think from Vaimes's play individually, as well as most of his interactions with the flipped scum he makes plenty of sense as scum. It could be Cobalt, I guess, in that I haven't really focused on him much when rereading, I think some interaction stuff looks good for him, I think some interaction stuff looks really bad for him. I think there's some play stuff of his that reads really town, and some that just has a lot of scum agenda to it. But outside of those two players, I think everyone else just looks Very Town, and has interaction stuff that make them look good. So uhh, I'd be doing Vaimes->Cobalt->Dels/Fonti here, but if you confidently get to it not being Cobalt and focus in Fonti/Dels more tomorrow I'd not be unhappy with that either.

 

Is there anything in particular you want from me before this day ends, or before it gets hammered? Because I've got a pretty crazy day tomorrow, and I'm probably only going to have a chance to do a little bit then, so if there's something you want to discuss, tonight is the best time for it.

 

I think I'm gonna take a pause here (see quote) because I ate too much and it's hard to think through the food coma, but so far the reread has alleviated a lot of what were my concerns, probably should have gone over her ISO before saying anything in the first place but I had the words in that moment and felt like I needed to put them out there, so. I think my main takeaways up to this point (I think it's like, day 3?) are that,

a) her tone / presence aren't nearly as much of a concern for me as I remembered, she reads fine and genuine through most of the first half of her ISO I think. There are a few bumps, but nothing that I would value too much on their own.

b) I actually feel kind of strongly about this which is why I feel okay taking a bit of a break here, like I definitely want to finish her ISO to get her full trajectory on Amy and everything else, but very little about her play so far feels like she's on a team with Cuth/Amy. I think this goes back to what I was sensing about her/Cuth, them pushing on Wisp together and that not feeling like the way she would play that, but going over it again knowing Amy is a wolf I think my read on that is more um, whole? Like it's not just a "Cuth/fonti probably don't do that together" but more of a "fonti doesn't feel like she's working with these two flipped wolves" / "these people don't have a shared agenda" type thing.

Like, I kind of struggle to see wolf!fonti venting at Dels in this way about about a read she's trying to push on her partner / on Cobalt. If she's a wolf then her agenda with the Cobalt/Amy stuff is almost always to use her knowledge of Amy being a wolf to get Cobalt yeeted, but this sort of post (and her others around this for the most part) doesn't really concern itself with Cobalt, it's just pure frustration that someone hasn't understood her read / reasoning and is working against what she's trying to do in thread without having done the work to appreciate her positions. The emotional side of is whatever, she can fake that, but why is she even putting herself in the position where has to fake it, where she's townsiding super hard, which isn't a wolf!fonti thing, imo. I don't know, I want to track this further and look at her treatment of Amy when the JOAT claims were out, but I think if fonti's a wolf with Amy/Cuth then they had to have like, decided as a team that she was just going to have to bus them and, like you said, play for f3, but even in that world I don't know, I don't get the sense they're organized together to put her on that path / get her there, and nothing about her Cobalt/Amy stuff tastes like her trying to yeet Cobalt / tie a town to her bud which I think it probably would if she were a wolf.

I don't know if any of that makes sense and I definitely didn't expect going into her ISO to be having these thoughts but that's kind of where I've landed pending finishing the reread. Going to go over your posts in a bit, not right this second, let me know if you think I'm reading into things that I shouldn't be / point out holes in my reasoning / tell me if all my thoughts are just completely bad / etc.