If we're on the case of Sirius, a peeve of mine is when Sirius is freed in a public Ministry-shaming trial without solid proof.

We're talking about a man whom the public perceives as a mass murderer and traitor. Also, he escaped from prison. It would take more than just Sirius' testimony, even with Veritaserum, to exonerate him. Sirius ain't stupid. It's possible that he offered to do just that.

Without Peter, there's little chance of exoneration, unless you rule the Ministry. Also, freeing Sirius just for the sake of doing it, without a sensible reason. If you want Sirius exonerated, give him something to do, goddamnit.

 

Naa, people's reactions don't make a character a Sue. A Sue is a character that's too perfect in their story. She screws up too much.

You might be able to call her a Sue in the last half of book 4, but I still argue that the entire point of the books was that she was destined to become a vampire and destined to begin a new race of people, reminiscent of the early Genesis stories about Israel.

Anyway, I'll say no more so I don't derail further.

 

Fourth year Harry was better than her as well. At least, that's the indication. As far as defense skills as concerned, It goes something like this :

(4th year) Harry > Grindylows
Grindylows > Fleur
Harry > Fleur

I'll admit this isn't nearly enough evidence to conclusively say that Fleur wasn't a good dueler, but all of the two instances given in canon support that she isn't. There isn't any evidence that she was good at dueling, so it the former case is most probably true. She seems to be quite good at charms instead -- she enchanted the dragon to sleep in the first task and used the bubblehead charm successfully in the second.

Really, Fleur's performance in the TWT was easily the least impressive of all four competitors -- she was last in the first task, couldn't even finish the second and was the first to be disposed of in the third. All this despite the fact that she had her headmistress holding her hand all the way.

So yeah, Fleur was probably good at magic, but she was hardly a prodigy. She was good at charms, but probably not very good at dueling. She wasn't very good at flying. I think that pretty much sums up all we know her abilities in canon.

 

Aren't dragons supposed to need like a bunch of handlers, and she just knocked it out solo ezpz? She got marked down for getting randomly whacked by sleeping fire.

Also fighting Grindylows =/= dueling.

Also pretty much everywhere else in the tasks she was shown to be better than Harry. The Grindylows were pretty much the sole exception.

 

Totally false. This would work if both Harry and Fleur were tested by the same number of Grindylows under the same circumstances. Harry was attacked by how many Grindylows? Four, five? We don't know how many of them attacked Fleur, so the fact that she succumbed to them is completely irrelevant, because we don't know details.

Also irrelevant. She was presumably attacked by Krum under imperius, iirc, so first was Krum. Also, Moody had to dispose of her and Cedric in some order. Cedric could just as well be the first one. And on top of that, Cedric wouldn't escape Krum in the maze if it wasn't for Harry. And Cedric was supposed to be very good at magic.

Huh? I can't seem to remember Fleur on a broom during canon.

 

Extra point, when it's "give a head" instead of "give ahead"

 

Sure. Sure. The entire world conspired against Fleur Delacour so that she wouldn't get to show off her awesome talents. The fact remains that she was marked last in all three tasks, and was placed last in the tournament by a comfortable margin. This is despite the fact that she had direct help from her headmistress and teachers and all their considerable resources -- something only Krum had. At some point you have to run out of excuses and just say that she just wasn't good enough to hang out with the rest of the competition.

Don't get me wrong, Fleur could have been attacked by hundreds of Grindylows and could have been as good as you think she is (something that there is no evidence of in canon). But the simpler explanation is that she wasn't as good as all that, and that the results of the tournament (which are basically the only metric we have to judge) show the truth. Without hard evidence one way or the other, it is simply better to accept the simpler explanation and move on.

Also, Bill states that she wasn't comfortable on a broom in canon. It was the reason they took a threstal instead of a broom while flying Harry to the Burrow in DH.

I am not looking to put down Fleur because I don't like her or anything like that, I am simply trying to sum up her talents she shows in canon and separate it from her fanon magnified skills. I do think her the least skilled of the four TWT competitors, but only because canon seems to support this.

 

And Harry. You remember how Crouch Jr complains about how thick Harry was and how much work it was to get him to the cup? How Crouch Jr basically told him how to deal with the dragon? How Crouch Jr flat out told Cedric how to solve the egg in the knowledge that he'd pass it on to Harry? How Crouch Jr gave Neville the solution for the second task but had to pull Harry's moronic ass out of the fire by basically straight up giving him Gillyweed via Dobby? How he actually cleared the creatures from in front of Harry in the maze and Imperiused Krum to remove the competition?

The competition was a complete farce and Harry's performance would have been abysmal without help. The competition basically ended up as Crouch Jr (proxy) vs Maxime (proxy) vs Karkaroff (proxy) vs Cedric (mostly alone) and really says very little about anyone's skill.

 

Ah, but is it really unfair when everyone is cheating, and it is a pretty much well known and accepted fact that everyone is cheating? Also, Fleur and Krum had direct help. Maxime and Karkaroff probably just told their candidates what to do, instead of going through the sometimes ridiculously convoluted routes that Crouch Jr was forced to go through . I mean, did he really expect Harry to seek help in a death tournament from Neville Longbottom of all people?

As for the tournament itself, sure all the candidates had help -- but they still had to go out there and do the job themselves. Facing a dragon is a serious matter, proxy or no proxy. Facing Grindylows isn't exactly easy either, as Fleur would attest. Of all the competitors, Harry executed his plan the best in the first task, and fought the Grindylows the best in the second. He would have been marked first after the two tasks had it not been for a moral quibble. Seriously, what is with people and putting down canon Harry's talents?

Disregarding the third task, the tournament was more-or-less fair (or at least it was equally unfair), if slightly biased towards Krum and Fleur. I don't see why it can't be used to judge the competitor's talents. I would say it was Cedric>Harry>Krum>Fleur for the first two tasks. Cedric and Harry tied in the actual results, but Harry had a bit more help than Cedric did.

 

Well it was unfair, because Cedric had no help. Also I think a non competitor cursing the opposition in the third task is a little unfair too.

 

Cedric did have help. If you remember Harry told him about the dragons, and Barty Jr. told him about the egg. The maze was basically a free for all while Jr. conveniently removed people and other obstacles for Harry to advance. The fact that Cedric tied with Harry was an unforeseen consequence.

 

It's true that he was told what the first task was, and essentially told what the second was, but unlike the others he didn't receive any help to actually do the task. While it was never explicitly stated I think we can assume Fleur and Krum had some pointers as to how to complete the tasks, and we already know Harry did.

 

I think we can assume that Fleur, at least, didn't recieve the extensive instruction suggested by Stan. Her reaction to failing in the second task (being actually worried that something might befall Gabrielle and then extremely grateful to Harry for saving her) tells me that any help she did get was general and not specific.

Of course they're all amazingly brave (or foolhardy) to go through with the tasks, but given they all do that they're on an equal footing there.

 

If by "people" you're talking about readers, sure.

If by "people" you meant characters, then I beg to differ.

Other characters' reactions to the Sue are most of what makes them a Sue. Think about all the OCs who, no matter what they do, for good or ill, are loved by everyone around them except the bad guys, which usually includes guys angry the Sue isn't fucking them, and girls who are just jealous at the attention the Sue gets (feel free to change the genders in the examples as needed).

Think about all the girls who mysteriously show up at Hogwarts during 5th or 6th year, who are practically best buddies with (or lusted after by) Snape, are drooled over by all the guys and whose hand is fought over by Draco and Harry, are praised by all the teachers, have the headmaster simply shut up and listen to every last stupid rant, are lusted after by Lucius Malfoy, and are the target of Voldemort's evil plans instead of Harry because the dark lord suddenly thinks she's more important than everything else for some reason.

Almost every single thing that is annoying about Mary-Sues is an example of the other characters reacting to them!

All you have left after that is, "They're really hot, have lots strengths and talents, are related to or closely acquainted with someone of canon importance, and probably have a very sad history." And even those things would just be good old-fashioned poor writing that removes all the tension and suspense, if the other characters weren't reacting to it all the time.

Everything else that makes a Sue what they are (and irritating as hell) is down to the rest of the cast bending over backwards to lick the Sue's ass, no matter how dull, weak, or awful they are.

 

Stan: Irrespective of whether it was fair or not, there were too many external variables to reasonably measure the performance of just the candidates in the tournament.

Gillyweed was much better than the bubblehead charm in terms of mobility in water. Without it, would Harry still be able to deal with the Grindylows? We don't know.

Also, you're comparing several powerful people. Even if Fleur was the weakest of the four champions, it doesn't mean she's weak. Whether she's powerful or not is determined by how much better than average she is.

The fact that she was a part of the delegation to come to Hogwarts suggests that she was among the best in her school. The fact that the Goblet chose her suggests she was in some way better than all her peers. She went on to put a dragon to sleep, all by herself. She was one of the people who polyjuiced Harry in DH, and possibly had some participation on the aerial battle that followed. I dont remember if she fought in the final battle, but I'm presuming she did.

All of this suggests that she was far better than the average witch or wizard.

 

Yep. I was talking about real life readers.

 

Peeve: Eyes being described as orbs pretty much constantly.

If someone describes a character as having 'cerulean orbs' my first thought is that their entire eyeball is bright blue. Also what does everyone have against the word 'eyes'? I like the word!

 

My main problem with Harry /Fluer is just how unrealistic it is.

Fluer is three years older than Harry, a Veela, French, and has boys clambering to date her. What's more, Canon!Harry doesn't actually show any resistances to Veela allure at all, really.

Add in all of these facts, and it always seems like wish fulfilment to me.

 

You actually think people would write fanfiction for wish fulfillment? :|

 

Veela allure is fanon, besides Fleur isn't a veela, she's part veela.