Said for ironic effect or a Freudian slip? Below you argue that you were only posting this here to see everyone's reaction. Given that, even someone as new to the board as you should know how much this board hates "fan-girls" (particularly slash ones), my guess is that you were posting hoping for a universal parade of love and agreement. You started your drama on a different board, where I'm guessing it wasn't favorably received -- so you ran here in order to have us do the thinking for you, as we have a reputation of disliking slash and fan-girls.

Having received a negative review, you've reacted exactly like them. It's kind of cute, if you dig hypocrisy that is.

Reading comprehension is obviously not your strong suite. Your argument:

Premise 1: Slash perverts characters beyond recognition
Premise 2: Doing this is bad
***
All slash is bad.

My rebuttal:

Premise 1: Since altering characters beyond recognition other than name and physical attributes is bad
Premise 2: And since you object to this bad thing
***
You must object to the vast overwhelming majority of fics in the DLP library.

You do not. Therefore, your position is as inconsistent as it is incoherent. I did like the "you jack off to slash" jab you put in at the end. That was cute -- and something that probably reveals a lot more about how you treat Harem!Harry fics than it does about how bisexual and gay men react to bad sex scenes written by women.

Taure: Please, there have been times that almost everyone in this thread minus Dark Syaoran have been chased by said mob

 

@Giovanni. Not to derail the thread, or to stroke your ego or anything, but I have to say watching you, and others on this board debate/argue, makes me realize just what a science debates can be. It's interesting watching it happen, kind of like a car wreck.

 

Never been chased by a mob before, so I guess I'll give it a go.

I've read about 200 full-length stories (50k-3m words) since I started reading fanfiction and maybe half of them have some element of romance involving the main character. 3 of those were slash (though only 2 were Harry-centric). Both of those were undeniably well-written and well-characterized. There was no sudden revelation - oh, I'm gay! - and the progression in both cases was relatively well-done (better than most of the het ship stories I've read). Now, it is undeniable that slash makes up the majority of the HP fandom and a larger percentage of it is crap than het or non-romance, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to write a decent slash story.

 

Bitch, please. :facepalm

 

Now that I reread that, I guess my reading comprehension does suck. I would've deleted it quickly to save me some embarrassment if it wasn't quoted already.

 

We're not casting around for reasons to read slash, we're dispelling bad reasons not to read it.

 

Exactly. Just on my first post, it was posting reason why a fangirl might like it. There wasn't really a hint of an attack or anything. Later on, when I posted my scale, it was something I thought would be the case for somebody that despises slash. I dislike slash, so that scale applies for me in most cases as well. Hence the whole minimal slash that doesn't really affect plot and such being barely tolerable. It's actually thanks to T3t's post that I realize how off topic we managed to get. Anyways, I'm off to tutor right now, so I'll be back in an hour and a half or so to see if this thread is still going on.

 

I don't think this thread was intended to "castigate fangirls"; otherwise, the tone of the original post would have been a lot more negative. Andromalius' post was unwarranted as the second post of the thread.

Sesc: Irrelevant. No shit, you're heterosexual, hurrah! The interesting question posed by the thread was really regarding why fangirls are so interested in slash, and there were some good responses along this line until Jormungandr provoked Gio into responding (at which point the thread devolved into meh).

 

...so, an average DLP thread then?

 

Fixed that for you.

 

I get back from a run, find this thread, and facepalm.

I take a shower, I come back - this thread is still here and not in the Hall of Shame yet. That irritates me. So I guess that means it's time for me to rant again! Warning, massive tl,dr ahead.

For those arguing about reasons why not to read slash, I point you to this thread, where Andro and I (among others) give very thorough digressions why we don't want to read slash, and unless something has changed dramatically in the fandom over the past year, nothing has fucking changed.

So, let's go to the topic of dissecting the mind of a fangirl (or fanboy - IMO, the latter can often prove more frustrating, at least in regards to fics DLP would find readable). Now, granted, I am not a girl nor am pretending to be, so hopefully a girl or Schrodinger can step in if they can tell me if I'm off-base in my dissertation. However, I was a fanboy at one point, so let's go through the semi-logical progression.

For starters, I would point most fangirl/fanboy fics have a root in frustration. Maybe it's sexual, maybe it's social, maybe it's metaphysical for the really weird ones. But regardless, if one considers the fics that are written by this group, one tends to detect an undercurrent of dissatisfaction with something they are emotionally invested in. The second major element I've observed is projection. In the most basic, uncreative form, it is the Mary-Sue character, but it actually tends to go far beyond that.

Take, for instance, the slash fangirls. To me, many of these fics show clear evidence of sexual and social frustration. Many slash fics are labelled right in the summary as dom/sub, with very explicit labels suggesting said fangirl writing it is trying to place herself in one role and her idealized 'partner' in the other. But given the rise of the movies and the casting of female characters, the slash fangirls tend to shun the female characters out of jealous insecurity and an inability to project. In fact, I'd argue many slash fangirls are more actively aware of the traits and qualities of most female characters than the male characters they are bastardizing. There's an interesting lack of confidence in most of these writers, and one of the reasons they tend to respond so vehemently to criticism of their work.

So that leaves the male characters, and from there, the plotting becomes easy. The character that the fangirl admires, adores, or lusts after becomes the partner of the main character, and other than a differing sexual orientation, not much of their personality tends to outright change (unless, of course, the fangirl gets fed up with existing character traits and chooses to excise them (most of Snape's love for Lily gets removed very fast in Harry/Snape stories)). The other character goes through more dramatic changes - most slash fangirls will tend to use techniques Andro describes in detail to warp this character, while the lazy ones just say, 'Oh, he's gay! Go with it!' And with that, they have a story, with characters and a plot comprised of the automatic drama created by the pairing of male characters, often on different sides. Ask yourself this: for all the Harry/Draco and Harry/Snape fics out there, they all FAR outweigh the number of Harry/Ron fics.

And then let's dig a little deeper on this, to the demographics - most slash 'fangirls' are teenagers, and nearly all teenagers are exposed through high school English to Romeo & Juliet, and despite the fact the subtext or actual realities of what Shakespeare was intending with that play probably go over all of their heads, they get the general gist of things. Teenage rebellion swells, and the idea of those opposing the relationship only creates more drama to behold. And of course I would be remiss to not mention the shitheap that is Twilight, which unfortunately has proven extremely influential across the fangirl demographic, and most of my points made here can be directed at that fandom as well.

But not all fangirls write slash, of course. The ones who tend to have a bit more self-confidence (and who might be a little squicked by the very concept of guy/guy) are the fangirls who write Harry/Ginny, and who have picked up on the fact that Ginny was basically an idealized blank slate for them to project onto. Basically most of your Harry/Ginny and especially Draco/Ginny comes from these groups, with the exception being the diehard canon fans who refuse to defy anything Rowling says and allow a single creative thought to enter their heads.

And Harmonians are a breed unto themselves. These are the die-hard romantic chicks you meet in high school who are projecting so hard onto Hermione it's not even funny, and who believe they are the epitome of everything an idealized guy like Harry should like, desperately compensating for the fact that guys tend to either ignore them or are creeped out by them.

Okay, so that's a dissection of the fangirl mind, and we can all guffaw and pat ourselves on the back, but truthfully, the 'fanboy' stories aren't much better. In fact, I'd argue they're worse, because they've ruined a vast chunk of the genres that DLP likes. And before I truly begin, I want to make a distinction between fanboyism and wank material. Most smutty fics tends to fall into the latter, as the fanboy writes what is effectively his masturbatory aide.

So once again, let's look to dissatisfaction and projection. Most teenage guys go through some version of angst or develop some rebellious tendencies - it's part of growing up. And for those who didn't get laid in high school (I'd argue even some of those who did) experience a fair amount of sexual frustration. So from those thoughts we consider Harry, a great character for male authors to project onto, and the plethora of female characters that Harry can fuck. And from there, we can point to most of the Indy!Harry genre and see our results, with manipulative!Dumbledore a stand-in for established authority and the girl a stand-in for the girlfriend they desperately crave.

And interestingly, most of the time you can tell what types of girls the fanboy author likes by considering the female character that is being shipped with Harry, if said character is written somewhat correctly (a MASSIVE assumption). If it's Fleur, the fanboy idolizes the exotic babe that is both somewhat accessible (she did hook up with Bill, and to most fanboys, that just implies she has low standards) and a tiny bit vulnerable. If it's Tonks, the fanboy wants the spunky, rebellious, free-spirited chick that's outgoing with a great sense of humor - and who never fails to ignore him (of course, given Tonks is a Metamorphmagus, you get more than your fair share of wanking material, but I digress). If it's Ginny, it's either a canon!shipper or someone who wants a chick that admires and adores him regardless of his actions. If it's Luna, the fanboy wants that quirky girl that's a little weird and just might be strange enough to accept him (there's a reason Lunajacking was a meme on 4chan). If it's Bellatrix or Narcissa, it tends to be a MILF-fetish, with a healthy attraction to bad-ass chicks (more with Bellatrix, obviously). If it's Hermione... well, I honestly don't really know why dudes would write Harry/Hermione, but I suspect part of it is Emma Watson wank at least.

But here's where we get to the interesting part, at least when it comes to fanboys, and that is female characterization. Quite simply, it fucking blows. Part of this is simply bad writing and cultural exposure to terrible female archetypes through most mediums, but another part of it is a lack of social and sexual experience. They don't know how to write relationships because they might not have had them, and their frustration manifests as characters opposing Harry and parroting lines heard by authority figures.

Frankly, on both sides, this issue simply comes down to dissatisfaction with one's own status and wish fulfillment, with a shocking amount of projection and (in most fanboy/fangirl fics) a degree of physical satisfaction as well. Quite simply, most of them are either escapist projections or masturbatory fantasies, all of which could easily be rectified by competent social interaction with peers and the opposite sex, relationships, and actually engaging in physical intercourse.

The short form - they need to get out and fuck something. A boy, a girl, a sheep, a cactus, a jet turbine, I don't care - at the end of the day, it will provide prospective they need.

...whew, glad I got that off my chest.

 

Ho-ly shit Silens.

 

...heh. I don't quite agree, but I think this thread could do without a psychological debate.

Loved how you did both fanbois and fangurls.

 

The fanboy writing Harry/Hermione desires their close female friend.

 

Not to mention all the housewives that write slash fanfiction who just have the minds of teenage girls and never mentally or emotionally left school. Just like Stephanie Meyer.

I'm gonna go ahead and assume I'm the closest thing to a slash fangirl on this forum and speak for the rest and say the fangirl part is right on the money except for a few points.

I have never seen a slash writer who explicitly states that they are trying to place themselves in the story unless it's crack.

The "dom/sub" tag is really just a fetish, in general you'll find that anything with this tag will be just extended porn with few exceptions. It's just like if there's a "breathplay" tag or a "parselsmut" tag, it's just something that this person likes to see in their custom-made porn, just like some people like tea over coffee it doesn't have any deep psychological significance to it. Pure voyeurism, nothing more, nothing less.

This is not right in the slightest. Ginny was cast horribly and most fangirls are aware of that so they hate Ginny based on the fact that she just isn't right for Harry (and many feel that Harry can do better ie. themselves), even most people on this forum agree that Ginny was a terrible choice, many fangirls do shun Ginny simply because she's one of the worst characters of the series and was just in general written poorly and the casting wasn't done well either.

Slash fangirls love Hermione. I have not met one fangirl who doesn't. Some may be indifferent but Emma Watson was clearly the perfect choice for the role and Hermione is a likeable and understandable character for the majority of the type of girls who are fans of the series. The only reason a slash fangirl might be indifferent to Hermione is because they simply prefer to focus on the male characters.

This is completely true. Low self esteem is one of the big reasons many writers and readers enjoy slash because they are mostly anonymous on the internet and that means that they're popularity isn't being based on how pretty they are or the coolest clothes they have, the slash fanfiction community is one of the purest meritocracies around and you just don't get that in the real world. Writers also know that if they write a good enough story they'll get quasi-famous and mostly well liked and everyone likes attention.

Not only that but it's a real girls club, for a teenage girl it's like they've suddenly discovered this whole new group of friends who like the exact same stuff they do and often have the same insecurities they do.

Ultimately, one half of the reason slash fangirls enjoy reading an writing slash is because of the community it gives them access to and the other half is because of the actual slash.

Another reason you didn't list is that often there just aren't any suitable characters for the fangirl's favourite male character to pair up with. While in the HPFandom some writers and readers consider Hermione to be acceptably three-dimensional (hence the prominence of the pairing) there are more acceptably three-dimensional characters in the male section of the series than there are female. So really, what fangirls are looking for when they pair Harry with say Snape or Draco, who may seem completely ridiculous choices at first, is someone who is as well developed as Harry.

You can see this in a much more pure setting in the Supernatural fandom where there are only really two female characters that can be considered possible long term relationships for Sam or Dean and they are Bela Talbot and Ruby.

Spoiler

Bela Talbot was simply just too perfect to be true, a real Mary-Sue, and Ruby... well... half of the fandom hated her from the beginning because they thought she was going to betray Sam and Dean (which she did, thus completely eradicating her as a possible lover) and the other half liked her (I know I did) and ran with her character. You would be surprised at how many Ruby/Sam fics there are out there. But since then both characters have died and who does that leave for Sam and Dean? Each other... or Castiel since season 4.

Now, I don't really know where you get all you experience in fangirl psyche from but if you get it fanfiction.net then know that ffnet is pretty much considered the nursery for fanfiction readers/writers among the slash community. If you post your story on the site then if it is recommended then it automatically loses respect simply because of the huge miles of shit that are on the site, so most slash fanfiction you find on that site will be considered the worst of the slash fanfictions.

The really big ones, the slash equivalent of say WoT or Shezza's stuff, are found on livejournal, dreamwidth or other sites like that, on forum WbA sections like ours or on their own websites. So if your basing your critique on the stuff on ffnet then you've got a very small slice of the slash community tharr.

Now, one interesting similarity between the two most slash ridden fandoms on the internet is that the lead male characters in both series don't have parents (John was around for a bit but didn't really guide them well), so many slash fangirls feel a much more maternal or big-sisterly kind of love towards the characters rather than a sexual one. I know I definitely feel the former towards all three characters. So many fangirls just want the characters to be happy in the end and often the best way to give them this kind of security is to pair them up with someone who will make them happy and thats where the slash comes in.

So..... that's it. Time for someone to pick holes in my theories.

Keep in mind that I am basing this opinion on people I know and my own experiences.

 

Why are we trying to comprehend the minds of fangirls...

 

What Silens actually said:

herpderp

 

Fangirls hate Ginny because she's written as hot, athletic, and popular - or, the reason most of these inadequate broads have with the real-life Ginnys of the world. They build them up to be these vapid, snobbish bitches that wouldn't sit with the more genuine girls during lunch time, blah blah blah.

 

So that's how they can launch into chapter long rants about how much of a slut Ginny is.