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A Hunt of Thrones II: Beyond the Wall - Town wins!

Discussion in 'Little Italy' started by Lutris, Jan 31, 2012.

  1. jwlk

    jwlk Seventh Year

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    Anya. It doesn't really matter
     
  2. Anya

    Anya Harley Quinn DLP Supporter

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    Bah. I'm just annoyed, ignore me.
     
  3. Lutris

    Lutris Jarl Dovahkiin DLP Supporter

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    Yeah Anya, but Yeagen still would've died and then you would've been Lynched either the next Day or the Day after that, and then all that needed to be done was wait until 4 players remained and Fen could be lynched.

    Called the game.
     
  4. jwlk

    jwlk Seventh Year

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    Can we get QT's, Lutris? I don't think you've posted them yet.
     
  5. KaiDASH

    KaiDASH Auror DLP Supporter

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    Lutris, is this a thing you actually care about? Because I have words too.
     
  6. Lutris

    Lutris Jarl Dovahkiin DLP Supporter

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    I have words for myself as well. -_____-
     
  7. KaiDASH

    KaiDASH Auror DLP Supporter

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    so writeup thing at a glance

    1a. Town has too much info for free
    1b. But only if the LC is town
    1c. Ranging is so incredibly protown as a mechanic (but it wasn't used this game in that way).
    1d. LC isn't fun gameplay

    2. Red Court has too much info for almost free (Conversely, I'd say Wildlings info is just right if RC info wasn't so crazy)

    3. Role/info blocks are an unfun mechanic

    4. White walker is both too tank and not tank enough

    5a. Unlynchables are like the most unfun mechanic possible
    5b. Game over mechanics before the game is numerically over is unfun as a concept

    6. Endless protection chain with angels/rangers

    7. Scum need to be able to kill more people!

    with depth!

    1a/b: Town has two priest checks if LC is town. The Priest pretty much always checks the LC since LC is not uncheckable. Actually even if LC isn't town the amount of shenanigans they can do is pretty limited since there are many ways their lies can be found.

    1c: Send confirmed town out ranging, they can rolereveal to each other and infodump and etc with basically 0 risk.

    1d: LC gameplay is very boring! You can't actually do anything interesting as the LC. It's intended as a mayor replacement but is much less interesting (even though like 90% of the time the uninteresting option is the best option with mayor power).

    Like this kind of thing is impossible with LC since lying about check results is always 100% antitown.

    2: Converts are clearly intended to weaken the power of converting but actually increase the power of conversions! Roles that can't be converted are roles that the RC wants to kill yesterday! Priest, Acolyte, Martyr, Vigilante, DoB, scum, ww.

    Onion Knight is just broken. It's a diviner that always hits 100% (Diviner being a role that can match a player and a role and find out if they are correct or not) on info roles.

    3: Not going to go into this much but basically with roleblocks instead of having two fun roles/mechanics you have one fun thing and another thing that stops the fun thing from happening.

    4: This is probably part of 5 and didn't really need it's own number but eh. WW is only killable by a limited number of things and there simply isn't enough of them for town to realistically be able to kill everything they need to, but if those things are up then ww just dies no questions asked. And if they aren't, ww wins. So like, that's bad!

    5a: Unlynchables are pretty lame! Lynching is the primary way that town kills scum, so having scum totally immune to the primary way that town is supposed to kill them sucks for town! It just town feel powerless which is a bad feeling to have in a game. Like feeling powerless is ok sometimes if people played really well to set something up, but feeling powerless because this guy outlived the possible ways to kill him is bleh.

    5b: Town would have lost the game if Azira didn't kill yeagen even though we knew every single scum and had more than enough numbers to cleanly kill every single person.

    6: Two people can be endlessly protected from nk's with angels and ranging. And scum piercing kills are extremely valuable as a resource and generally inconvenient to use - Wildling kill requires a roleclaim (so it's strictly the worst kill ability in the game) and RP kill doesn't hit unconvertables.

    7: Scum should be able to kill more people! But I think you know this already.
     
  8. Krogan

    Krogan Alien in a Hat ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Well I agree with pretty much everything Kai said and the one thing I would add on which is very minor in regards to my role as Cook, considering how many people are unlynchable I thought it was more than a little bit silly that I would have to suicide for a kill that stood an enormous chance of not doing a solitary thing. Throw in some rare exceptions here and there sure but for the most part if someone has to suicide to make a kill then it should be unblockable and have nothing to do with a lynching mechanic.
     
  9. Lutris

    Lutris Jarl Dovahkiin DLP Supporter

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  10. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Thisthisthis. What the fuck. I only just realised this as I read how I was killed. Conversion "protection" is not a protection but glaring red kill-me-now sign. In essence, it's an additional check the RK can do -- "are you one of those that I reallyreallyreally want dead yes/no". That's more useful than guilty yes/no ever was!

    And here I wondered why I died -- thought I fucked up somehow while talking about Ser Piggy/myself in third person or something. But no, they just couldn't convert me and did the logical thing for them. Booooo :/
     
  11. Sacrifice

    Sacrifice Guest

    Lol, reading Geabe's QT made me realise why he wasn't posting much in the game
     
  12. Eidolonic

    Eidolonic Supreme Mugwump

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    Thank you for pointing his QT out. Hilarious shit, wish he hadn't died so early.

    The fact that he died while trying to avoid Taure, and rape Ashaya just makes it all the more amusing. If only Taure had been the one to kill him in-game.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2012
  13. Lungs

    Lungs KT Loser ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Stuff at a glance because Kai always outdoes me and I dun want it to happen this time ;_;

    1. Info Diffusion issues
    2. Power Diffusion issues
    3. Scum synergy
    4. Hermonie WW

    1. Town already exists with informational chokepoints - Priests, etc, but generally what happens is that they exist in a sort of legitimacy vacuum - there's an acolyte to subtly defend them and choose playstyles that encourage long life. With the LC, there is

    - artificial legitimacy (voting stuff)
    - free life lulz

    An extension of Kai's point, it's both unfun (because there's no real sense of danger, especially if you have a traveller role in the LC seat) and immediately breaks scum without a propierce kill if it's a town role and immediately breaks town forever if it's scum because cooks and vig hits or two days worth of lynching meaning town loses two days to hit town or loses vig hits.

    I'm not sure how to fix this, but… take the extra life off the LC because you have a secondelection mechanic already? That will never see use?

    2. I drew Liar. Unlynchability. Under what world is it not good to send me ranging all the time? It's stuff like this that makes it bad for scum and the counterbalancing mechanic (by just stacking on scum powers) is probably a bad idea.

    Onion Knight is at least 50% broken (Kai said it first and stuff).

    3. Alternating kills makes scum unfun. By the time you realize someone has to die, they have to die. You don't have a kill tonight. Boo.

    King of Giants hurts other scum more than town, which is probably bad. Hunter trapping was a good idea so I'm not too against this etc.

    4. The problem with the WW is that it's a semioblatt which doesn't full access to awesome, but gets roleblocking instead. Kai's all roleblocking bad, and I'm not sure about that, but when you have a game already weighed down by killblocking and roleblocking from other roles, it becomes clunky and unfun and stuff.

    WW role encourages turtling as good playing, unlike Warlock, because focus on epic Ser Piggy gank and other stuff - the right thing to do is to lurk until people have died left and right, etc. Ashaya didn't, so she paid by dying. This is normally true of all oblatt 3rd parties but in cases of Warlock/Thrall only should lurk, etc.

    5. Two mafia factions is honestly probably net unfun because kingmaking, kingmaking everywhere - I think this is true of the large majority of twomafia games, especially when the power isn't diffused perfectly between the two. The Red King Court had so much more information (as Kai has said already) and a role kill that steals power. Boo.
     
  14. KaiDASH

    KaiDASH Auror DLP Supporter

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    It's unfun because it's too much info and no choices to make regarding that info. You aren't even making the choice of who the info is about so it's a completely passive thing.

    You're like a cow and the town milks you each day for their daily serving of info.

    (i kind of wanted to end the post there lol)

    In games with just a warlock and no thrall it's problematic.

    Like, the warlock obviously needs protection but at the same time the warlock also needs to be actually killable by people. So you end up with this highly armored warlock that has a giant 'shoot me here' sign where his heart is. And then if it ends up that all the people with guns are dead (as nearly happened this game) then warlock is unkillable.

    But having a thrall lets you give warlock really powerful protection that isn't overpowered because it hinges on the thrall actually being alive.

    This game is technically 4 faction (ww, town, 2x scum) but yeah. In any game with more than 2 teams kingmaking will be a thing always and I've always said (to be fair, since after the first HoT) that the +fun (is that even a thing?) from more samey-factions (wildings/redcourt) isn't worth the tradeoff in other areas.

    Like I'm even starting to think that a distinct extra faction like the warlock/thrall duo has a negative overall impact on the game (but I'm less sure about this!).

    ---------- Post automerged at 01:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:35 AM ----------

    Also thanks lutris for running the game <3
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2012
  15. Eternity Lost

    Eternity Lost Squib

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    Thanks Lutris, it was a great game.

    Our team just seemed to selfdestruct. Taure seemed to disappear, Gambit reeked of scum, and I did the derp of the century. But Azira did well enough, even on his own.
     
  16. Lungs

    Lungs KT Loser ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Not just in the day, if you're Geabe XD

    I'm still sold that a third party role is a good idea for the balance, especially if you get to smack massroleclaim with it.

    btw


    Sanks, Lutris~
     
  17. Krogan

    Krogan Alien in a Hat ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    So I was flipping through the Children QT and I saw the part about me killing Anya before her ability was confirmed and I actually wanted to do just that but I was informed quite a while ago that the RK ability took precedence over mine and I couldn't do that. Was that wrong? I would have really liked to kill her.

    Also scummiest town award >.>, your so sweet Sesc.
     
  18. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    The reason why I went ranging night 1 should be obvious: not once did anyone ever say "Hey, maybe Taure was a wildling". No one even considered it. Not even after I continued to play anti-town as a wight after Ashaya's death.

    Had I survived it would have gone a long way to setting aside any suspicion of me. I was moderately confident that I would survive. And to be fair, I think if anyone other than a fellow ranger was the WW, I would have.
     
  19. Sacrifice

    Sacrifice Guest

    The Wildlings should have the King of Giants step forward, had you been the King of Giants, Ashaya would have died Night One. Well, unless you intend on joining the Wights right from the start XD
     
  20. Taure

    Taure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Sure, if the Wildlings wanted town to win.
     
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